Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Is there a GOD?

Do you believe in GOD?

  • Absolutely no question--I know

    Votes: 150 25.6%
  • I cannot know for sure--but strongly believe in the existance of god

    Votes: 71 12.1%
  • I am very uncertain but inclined to believe in god

    Votes: 35 6.0%
  • God's existance is equally probable and improbable

    Votes: 51 8.7%
  • I dont think the existance of god is probable

    Votes: 112 19.1%
  • I know there is no GOD we are a random quirk of nature

    Votes: 167 28.5%

  • Total voters
    586
I actually put my "reasonably" intelligent (IQ 135) mind to it (that had done engineering and teaching degrees), I could see that there was far more to the arguments for the existence of God, and that it really was a pretty arrogant position to take to think that we could explain away God with some mathematics and science.

I suppose the best place to start then is with some historical ontological argument:

From St Anslem:

The ontological argument was proposed by Anselm of Canterbury (1033–1109) in the second chapter of his Proslogion.[8] Although he did not propose an ontological system, he was very much concerned with the nature of being. He distinguished necessary beings (those that must exist) from contingent beings (those that may exist, but whose existence is not necessary).

In Chapter 2 of “The Existence of Nature and God” Anselm′s Argument for the Existence of God is as follows:

1. God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived
2. God may exist in the understanding.
3. To exist in reality and in the understanding is greater than to exist in the understanding alone.
4. Therefore, God exists in reality.

From Rene Descartes:

Descartes wrote in the Fifth Meditation,[10]

But if the mere fact that I can produce from my thought the idea of something that entails everything which I clearly and distinctly perceive to belong to that thing really does belong to it, is not this a possible basis for another argument to prove the existence of God? Certainly, the idea of God, or a supremely perfect being, is one that I find within me just as surely as the idea of any shape or number. And my understanding that it belongs to his nature that he always exists is no less clear and distinct than is the case when I prove of any shape or number that some property belongs to its nature (AT 7:65; CSM 2:45).

The intuition above can be formally described as follows:

Whatever I clearly and distinctly perceive to be contained in the idea of something is true of that thing.

I clearly and distinctly perceive that necessary existence is contained in the idea of God.

Therefore, God exists.

Criticism by "essence precedes existence"

Avicenna's argument is based on essence precedes existence. In his view existence is secondary to essence or quiddity, because a human can think about something and it need not exist. Everything that exists only comes into existence because it is brought from potential to actual existence by something else, except God, who is the only Necessary Existent.

Averroes rejected Avicenna's ontological distinction between existence and essence. He argued that in an eternal universe anything that could exist would and indeed must exist, and existence of a thing is not just a property added to it.

Kant put forward a key refutation of the ontological argument in the Critique of Pure Reason (first edition, pp. 592–603; second edition, pp. 620–631).[23] It is explicitly directed primarily against Descartes but also against Leibniz. His criticism was anticipated in Pierre Gassendi's Objections to Descartes' Meditations. Kant's refutation consists of several separate but interrelated arguments. They are shaped by his central distinction between analytic and synthetic judgments. In an analytic judgment, the predicate expresses something that is already contained within a concept and is therefore a tautology; in a synthetic judgment, the predicate, or claim, links the concept to something outside it that is not already logically implied by it. New knowledge consists of synthetic judgments.

Kant first questions the intelligibility of the very concept of an absolutely necessary being, considering "whether I am still thinking anything in the concept of the unconditionally necessary, or perhaps rather nothing at all". He examines one way of understanding the concept, which looks to examples of necessary propositions, e.g. "a triangle has three angles". But he rejects this account for two related reasons. First, no absolutely necessary judgments will ever yield an absolute necessity for things and their existence: e.g., "a triangle has three angles" yields only the conditioned necessity that, if a triangle exists, then necessarily three angles exist. Thus even if we defined a concept of a thing X so that "X exists" were a necessary judgment, all that would follow is the conditioned necessity that, if X exists, then necessarily X exists. Second, since contradictions arise only when we keep the subject and cancel the predicate (e.g., keeping God and canceling omnipotence), and since judgments of nonexistence cancel both the subject and the predicate, therefore no judgment of nonexistence can involve a contradiction. Kant concludes that there is a strong general case against the intelligibility of the concept of an absolutely necessary being.[23]

Second, Kant argues that if we include existence in the definition of something, then asserting that it exists is a tautology. If we say that existence is part of the definition of God, in other words an analytic judgment, then we are simply repeating ourselves in asserting that God exists. We are not making a synthetic judgment that would add new information about the real existence of God to the purely conceptual definition of God.

Third, Kant argues that "'being' is obviously not a real predicate" [23] and cannot be part of the concept of something. That is, to say that something is or exists is not to say something about a concept, but rather indicates that there is an object that corresponds to the concept, and "the object, as it actually exists, is not analytically contained in my concept, but is added to my concept". For objects of the senses, to say that something exists means not that it has an additional property that is part of its concept but rather that it is to be found outside of thought and that we have an empirical perception of it in space and time. A really existing thing does not have any properties that could be predicated of it that differentiate it from the concept of that thing. What differentiates it is that we actually experience it: for example, it has shape, a specifiable location, and duration. To give an example of Kant's point: the reason we say that horses exist and unicorns do not is not that the concept of horse has the property of existence and the concept of unicorn does not, or that the concept of horse has more of that property than the concept of unicorn. There is no difference between the two concepts in this regard. And there is no difference between the concept of a horse and the concept of a really existing horse: the concepts are identical. The reason we say that horses exist is simply that we have spatio-temporal experience of them: there are objects corresponding to the concept. So any demonstration of the existence of anything, including God, that relies on predicating a property (in this case existence) of that thing is fallacious.

Thus, in accordance with the second and third arguments, the statement "God is omnipotent" is an analytic judgment that articulates what is already contained in and implied by the concept of God, i.e. a particular property of God. The statement "God exists" is a synthetic judgment of existence that does not assert something contained in or implied by the concept of God and would require knowledge of God as an object of that concept. What the ontological argument does is attempt to import into the concept of God, as though it were a property, the synthetic assertion of the existence of God, thereby illegitimately and tautologously defining God as existing. In other words, it begs the question by assuming what it purports to prove.

But, fourth, Kant argues that the concept of God is in any case not the concept of one particular object of sense among others but rather an "object of pure thought", of something that by definition exists outside the field of experience and of nature. With regard to unicorns, we can specify how we could determine that unicorns exist, i.e., what spatio-temporal experience of them would look like. With regard to the concept of God, there is no way for us to know it as existing in the only legitimate and meaningful way we know other objects as existing. We cannot even determine "the possibility of any existence beyond that known in and through experience" [23].

The typical response (e.g., Plantinga's ontological argument, below) to this objection to the ontological argument is this: "While 'existence' simpliciter cannot be a predicate, 'necessary existence' (like 'contingent existence') can be a predicate." Some things are contingently so, and some things are necessarily so. God, it is said, is a necessary being de re. Some have objected that Plantinga's argument merely re-assumes that existence is a property and continues the argumentation by tautology.

jog on
duc
 
et al

Then, we could swiftly move to the cosmological argument, which, essentially is based upon Empiricism and states:

Everything that exists, exists because of something else. The ultimate causation of "X" is God. Therefore, God exists.

If you take Karl Popper's Falsification Theory, and postulate that based on empirical evidence, that the above theory is true, then, the conclusion must be assumed to be true, until [evidence] proves it untrue.

jog on
duc
 
et al

Then, we could swiftly move to the cosmological argument, which, essentially is based upon Empiricism and states:

Everything that exists, exists because of something else. The ultimate causation of "X" is God. Therefore, God exists.

If you take Karl Popper's Falsification Theory, and postulate that based on empirical evidence, that the above theory is true, then, the conclusion must be assumed to be true, until [evidence] proves it untrue.

jog on
duc

One question for Mr. Popper and it's not about tetra-paks.

Is there such a thing as no moral absolute?
 
So where/if any does the moral absolute lie?

You are entering into an Ethical question, which, most certainly pertains to the question of the existence of God, but from a slightly different perspective.

If we take an example from Plato:

Is what is good, good because God commands it? Or, does God command it because it is good?

jog on
duc
 
You are entering into an Ethical question, which, most certainly pertains to the question of the existence of God, but from a slightly different perspective.

If we take an example from Plato:

Is what is good, good because God commands it? Or, does God command it because it is good?

jog on
duc

Nah not a question about God. Are you absolutely sure Plato was right?

Anyone can claim anything from their own subjective reality.

What about you ducati? Is there such a thing as a moral absolute?
 
You are entering into an Ethical question, which, most certainly pertains to the question of the existence of God, but from a slightly different perspective.

If we take an example from Plato:

Is what is good, good because God commands it? Or, does God command it because it is good?

jog on
duc

Why does my entering into "ethics" on behalf of some third party concept of "GOD" bother you?
 
Nah not a question about God. Are you absolutely sure Plato was right?

Anyone can claim anything from their own subjective reality.

What about you ducati? Is there such a thing as a moral absolute?

Of course it's a question pertaining to God. It's simply approaching the question from a different argument, and as such, opens numerous new arguments.

As to
Anyone can claim anything from their own subjective reality.
well yes they can, but much will not stand up to objective scrutiny and thus can be discounted as nonsense.

What about you ducati? Is there such a thing as a moral absolute?

If you are asking: is there argument for/against, absolutely there is. If you are asking for my argument on this issue, you'll need to provide a context.

jog on
duc
 
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's simply that pursuing two arguments, that while related, are distinct, can become somewhat confusing.

jog on
duc

I'm not trying to confuse you duc. I'll return to my original point.
Are you sure that no moral absolute exists?
 
And what do you claim duc?

Currently I'm not claiming anything. I'm waiting for an argument that refutes my previously posted argument:

Then, we could swiftly move to the cosmological argument, which, essentially is based upon Empiricism and states:

Everything that exists, exists because of something else. The ultimate causation of "X" is God. Therefore, God exists.

If you take Karl Popper's Falsification Theory, and postulate that based on empirical evidence, that the above theory is true, then, the conclusion must be assumed to be true, until [evidence] proves it untrue.

jog on
duc
 
The demograph of ASF'ers attacted to this thread would be baby boomers or older. That age group in Australia were probably 60% plus exposed to serious Christianity (fire and brimstone). Therefore the passion of this thread is and will probably stay in situ till exhausted, (and we most be close) on the line articulated in the last sentence.

And thanks WayneL for the uncreative little plug, very down to earth.

Nope, no where near 60 and neither are my kids, and they are old enough to choose. We all have strong faiths

Wayne, I believe in one God, and I have friends with different faiths

They were happy with Mary MacKillop, which is how this thread all started again.
 
Currently I'm not claiming anything. I'm waiting for an argument that refutes my previously posted argument:



jog on
duc

So you lay your belief on the tetra-pak dude. :rolleyes:

It still doesn't explain why some people are assholes but hey I can't explain that either. But I don't believe it's all relative. Of course there will always be assholes. The main question is why?

But what is cool to discuss is:

If one claims there are no rules, doesn't that create a recipe for anarchy?

And if the above is a fallacy then surely to claim no moral absolute is to claim a fallacy in itself?

Deep stuff but have a think.
 
So you lay your belief on the tetra-pak dude. :rolleyes:

It still doesn't explain why some people are assholes but hey I can't explain that either. But I don't believe it's all relative. Of course there will always be assholes. The main question is why?

But what is cool to discuss is:

If one claims there are no rules, doesn't that create a recipe for anarchy?

And if the above is a fallacy then surely to claim no moral absolute is to claim a fallacy in itself?

Deep stuff but have a think.

You have made an assumption regarding my position [beliefs] on the question, when I have categorically not made or taken a position with regard to beliefs at all. I have simply posited an argument, that can be refuted by any and all of any position [beliefs]

Anarchy is generally defined within the temporal:

Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχίᾱ anarchíā, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:

"No rulership or enforced authority."[1]

"Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."[2]

"A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."[3]

"Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."[4]

"Act[ing] without waiting for instructions or official permission... The root of anarchism is the single impulse to do it yourself: everything else follows from this."

As such, it has only passing relevance to the question: Is there a God? To tie the reference to anarchy to the question, would require much argument into the origins and distortions of law, predominantly Canon Law as opposed to Common Law [Roman Law] which returns us to Natural Law and Aristotle.

Unfortunately the rest of your post makes no sense. Possibly you can elaborate to clarify?

jog on
duc
 
You have made an assumption regarding my position [beliefs] on the question, when I have categorically not made or taken a position with regard to beliefs at all. I have simply posited an argument, that can be refuted by any and all of any position [beliefs]

Anarchy is generally defined within the temporal:



As such, it has only passing relevance to the question: Is there a God? To tie the reference to anarchy to the question, would require much argument into the origins and distortions of law, predominantly Canon Law as opposed to Common Law [Roman Law] which returns us to Natural Law and Aristotle.

Unfortunately the rest of your post makes no sense. Possibly you can elaborate to clarify?

jog on
duc

I have made no assumption. You have no position.
Essentially you are a nihilist as
Walter Sobchak would say.



acceptable boundary limits dude.:D
 
I have made no assumption. You have no position.
Essentially you are a nihilist as
Walter Sobchak would say.


acceptable boundary limits dude.:D

It's almost embarrassing to point out the obvious, but, unfortunately old chap, you are making assumptions all over the place.

My position, for the moment, is, as previously posted. I of course reserve the right to re-argue my position, if a refutation is forthcoming.

jog on
duc
 
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