Is there a GOD?

[Sdajii]

Imo your unconditional generalisation is simply not true.

Yes, granted a small minority of all religious faiths will adopt 'extreme' interpretations of their beliefs but I for one, although having strong religious beliefs, am not a fanatic (ie..one who shoves their beliefs down other peoples throats) and I am certainly not forcing myself to believe anything.

I am choosing to believe in God just as freely as anyone else is choosing to believe they do not believe in God or otherwise.

Fanaticism doesn't have anything to do with trying to convince anyone else of your beliefs, and doesn't have anything to do with adopting extreme beliefs. Fanaticism is having an extreme enthusiasm for something without being open to changing your mind. Religion very clearly closes minds, the very notion of faith is to believe something without reason or evidence. No one ever chooses not to believe in god based on faith, no one fiercely holds a fanatical, stubborn belief that there is no god because there is no reason to, it is an easy choice to make or break because there is no fear of going to Hell etc if you don't believe in it. There are, on the other hand, ways which religion manipulates people into believing in god and scaring them into holding that belief. If you believe a supernatural power commands you to do something you'll be inclined to do it. If you believe nothing is forcing you to do anything, nothing is even there, your mind is free to make choices, you are unrestricted.

 

[bulldoza]

....Fanaticism is having an extreme enthusiasm for something without being open to changing your mind......

Your definition of fanaticism is only true imo if someone is closed to changing their minds if they haven't looked at alternative views, ideas etc.

I have looked at alternatives over the years and I have freely chosen Christianity, hence my belief in God.

Therefore, I maintain that your original unconditional generalisation is simply not true, especially in my case.

But if you would like to think of me as a fanatic, then that is your right to choose and I don't have an issue with that.

I think we are straying off topic now and so if you want to discuss fanaticism further, maybe start a new thread with a more appropriate title. This thread is "Is there a God?"

 

[Mr J]

To be honest, after all the discussion in here over the last few days I hadn't noticed any change in the poll numbers (I could be wrong)

It's an old thread and most people would have voted a while ago. The numbers would be far more interesting if God was proven to exist or not exist. I speculate that if God was proven not to exist, there would be far more religious people unwilling to change their beliefs than there would "non-believers" if God was proven to exist.

Not to sure about the maths but I think you may be a bit generous towards your case for the split.

If we give your side the top 3 plus half of the 4th (25 votes, which I think is generous,) your toal comes to 265. If the side I favour has the botton 2 plus half of the 4th then we have a total of 382

You have added an extra 100 to the "non-believers".

 

[Sdajii]

I think we are straying off topic now and so if you want to discuss fanaticism further, maybe start a new thread with a more appropriate title. This thread is "Is there a God?"

I think you're kidding yourself if in its 68th page you consider this to be off topic!

 

[bulldoza]

Have you actually read the bible? Celebrating xmas and easter is a sin! The people who actually follow the bible are called crazy even by the majority of the folks who claim to be Christians!

Well, this is a new one - even for me.

What Bible or any other reference can you post to support your statement "Celebrating xmas and easter is a sin! "

I also disagree with your unconditional generalisation - "The people who actually follow the bible are called crazy even by the majority of the folks who claim to be Christians!"

 

[Wysiwyg]

The numbers would be far more interesting if God was proven to exist or not exist.

Simply proving up the god theory would have 90% of the planet's population convert overnight. The remaining 10% (higher ?) of nutters and terminals would remain the same. All very simple really.

 

[explod]

Simply proving up the god theory would have 90% of the planet's population convert overnight. The remaining 10% (higher ?) of nutters and terminals would remain the same. All very simple really.

I reckon even the nutters would go for a chance at the big orgy in the sky. Cuuummmoooorrrnn show me God that can part the water and walk in the sky before my eyes.

 

[Mr J]

Simply proving up the god theory would have 90% of the planet's population convert overnight. The remaining 10% (higher ?) of nutters and terminals would remain the same. All very simple really.

"Convert" might not be the right word. If a particular god was proven to exist, I still wouldn't become religious and worship it. If it truly is all-powerful and knowing, I guess it would have accepted minds and attitude such as mine to be acceptable, and respect my position.

 

[bulldoza]

"Convert" might not be the right word. If a particular god was proven to exist, I still wouldn't become religious and worship it. If it truly is all-powerful and knowing, I guess it would have accepted minds and attitude such as mine to be acceptable, and respect my position.

Mr J - yours is an intersting attitude and I fully accept your right to have it, so please take the following as a purely hypothetical case from your point of view and not as an attempt by me to impose my beleifs onto you.

If the god that was hypothetically proven to exist turned out to be your creator and master of your eternal destiny in terms of whether you are eternally damned or saved depending on whether you lived your life the way he wanted you to, are you not taking a huge risk by not worshipping it and obeying it throughout your life.?

Remember, this is just a hypothetical question out of curiosity on my part and not an attack on your view.

 

[wayneL]

"Convert" might not be the right word. If a particular god was proven to exist, I still wouldn't become religious and worship it. If it truly is all-powerful and knowing, I guess it would have accepted minds and attitude such as mine to be acceptable, and respect my position.

Early in this thread (and others), I have made several points along the same lines.

I rather think we've anthropomorphized the concept of God. We've created God in our image rather than the Abrahamic contention that God has created us in his.

If there is a God and he/she/it wanted something from us, it would be made very plain and easy to understand. The fact is, there is no universal "instruction booklet".

(** I'm starting the count down to the spurious claim that the Bible is a universal instruction booklet. )

 

[bulldoza]

If there is a God and he/she/it wanted something from us, it would be made very plain and easy to understand. The fact is, there is no universal "instruction booklet".

It's a no-brainer to put me down for the Bible as the "instruction booklet".

But let's put that aside for a moment.

Your quote is alluding to a common theme of their being uncertainty on whether a god exists and what that god may or may not want from us.

But, for me at least, the Bible imo explains the lack of 'hard evidence' that many ask for on whether God exists or not, and I commented on it briefly a couple of days ago.

Essentially, the Book of Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve failed whatever test was put before them by God and from that moment on, sin entered the world and so consequently we all now have to prove to God that we are worthy to be judged by Him to spend eternal life with Him after our journey through this life. Imo our life here is a test that will be judged by God. Through His Son Jesus Christ, as documented in the 4 Gospels, God tells us how he wants us to live our lives - by firstly believing in Him and living our lives in the way shown and taught by Jesus.

In order for God's test of each one of us to maintain its integrity then logically God cannot reveal Himself to us 'physically' and provide the 'hard evidence' many ask for. If he did then the purpose of the test would be defeated since I suspect most if not all would then obviously immediately turn to God.

How we react to and with each other in our daily lives and coping with all the good and bad (man-made or otherwise) in the world is all part of God's test imo.

Now I'm sure there are many who think the above is a load of rubbish and that's fine be me. We all have to make our own individual choices on what we choose to believe.

But at least the Bible, IMHO, gives an explanation for the uncertainity many speak of and gives us instructions for our journey through life. We individually just have to decide whether to accept it or not even without 'hard evidence'

 

[Boognish]

Mr J - yours is an intersting attitude and I fully accept your right to have it, so please take the following as a purely hypothetical case from your point of view and not as an attempt by me to impose my beleifs onto you.

If the god that was hypothetically proven to exist turned out to be your creator and master of your eternal destiny in terms of whether you are eternally damned or saved depending on whether you lived your life the way he wanted you to, are you not taking a huge risk by not worshipping it and obeying it throughout your life.?

Remember, this is just a hypothetical question out of curiosity on my part and not an attack on your view.

Pascal's wager.

For mine, there is zero evidence for a creator god/supreme being and therefore I don't believe in one.

 

[jonojpsg]

Pascal's wager.

For mine, there is zero evidence for a creator god/supreme being and therefore I don't believe in one.

I'll double your Pascal's and raise you a Minty

What evidence would you accept or consider reasonable justification for a God/supreme being?

 

[jonojpsg]

Early in this thread (and others), I have made several points along the same lines.

I rather think we've anthropomorphized the concept of God. We've created God in our image rather than the Abrahamic contention that God has created us in his.

If there is a God and he/she/it wanted something from us, it would be made very plain and easy to understand. The fact is, there is no universal "instruction booklet".

(** I'm starting the count down to the spurious claim that the Bible is a universal instruction booklet. )

Why? Why wouldn't he/she/it create us with a burning desire to know stuff and hence in the journey of discovery find that he/she/it existed? Given that a supreme being most likely exists outside of time, there is no particular reason for he/she/it to be in a hurry?

Besides which Wayne, surely you can't say that the moral code that exists inside each and every one of us (apart from a very small percentage of socio/psychopaths) is not a pretty good indication of a universal instruction? There is NO argument against the fact that the moral code exists - otherwise I could just get a rifle and go out and shoot all the bloody annoying people that piss me off

 

[Wysiwyg]

In order for God's test of each one of us to maintain its integrity then logically God cannot reveal Himself to us 'physically' and provide the 'hard evidence' many ask for. If he did then the purpose of the test would be defeated since I suspect most if not all would then obviously immediately turn to God.

I was thinking of the "test" clause yesterday. Discussions as this are perceived as a test of faith and if one comes out the other side still completely faithful then the test is perceived as passed.
By explaining away the reason, the fact is avoided. Highly transparent though and such exposure is defining. Effective perpetuation.

 

[explod]

otherwise I could just get a rifle and go out and shoot all the bloody annoying people that piss me off

Yeh like the twin towers and the aeroplane over England and many other countless ones under the banner of de God's

 

[Whiskers]

In order for God's test of each one of us to maintain its integrity then logically God cannot reveal Himself to us 'physically' and provide the 'hard evidence' many ask for. If he did then the purpose of the test would be defeated since I suspect most if not all would then obviously immediately turn to God.

It's certainly an ancient cultural tradition that the male is the head of the house and family, but if there is a god as described in the bible, why is god portrayed in religion as male?

It seems logical that if god is a sexual thing then there is more than one of them. Is Satan female?

It seems to me that a god, creator or life force would be asexual.

How we react to and with each other in our daily lives and coping with all the good and bad (man-made or otherwise) in the world is all part of God's test imo.

Delete the word and religious conotations of god and my current experience points to this statement being loosely relevant to our existance.

 

[Mr J]

If the god that was hypothetically proven to exist turned out to be your creator and master of your eternal destiny in terms of whether you are eternally damned or saved depending on whether you lived your life the way he wanted you to, are you not taking a huge risk by not worshipping it and obeying it throughout your life.?

As Boognish says, this is pretty much Pascal's wager.

- If the god can see through our deceptions, it won't do me any good to worship if I'm not genuine.

- I would not think highly of a god that allows us to think freely and choose, if it then punishes us for making the "wrong" choice.

- If this god punishes 'good' people simply because they don't believe (as it is suggested in a number of religions), it is not a god I would want to worship.

- I have no knowedge of this god. If it was the christian god that was shown to exist, I still wouldn't trust the bible. I will base my opinion of the god by its character and actions. I can't worship a god that I don't know, or can't respect.

- I question the psychological state of a supreme being that creates inferior beings to worship it. A god who does this sounds like a narcissist, or one suffering from low self-esteem.

And I don't feel you're feeling pushing or insulting (and my answers here aren't meant to be either) .

I rather think we've anthropomorphized the concept of God. We've created God in our image rather than the Abrahamic contention that God has created us in his.

Very true, but I think people would prefer something familiar than worshipping energy, green men, or some perfect equation to explain the universe. It does make sense that if a god exists, it would present itself in the image of a human.

If there is a God and he/she/it wanted something from us, it would be made very plain and easy to understand.

I think so as well. A creator would surely understand our minds, and know that many of us just aren't capable of "believing". Give us a sign! I do think that if a god exists and reveals itself, humanity is in for a shock, and more so for the religious.

 

[derty]

Essentially, the Book of Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve failed whatever test was put before them by God and from that moment on, sin entered the world and so consequently we all now have to prove to God that we are worthy to be judged by Him to spend eternal life with Him after our journey through this life.

So basically we are all born bad, we then need to prove we are good for our entire lives according to the directives laid out in the Bible for the chance to get eternal bliss or risk eternal damnation.

The way I see it is that it all hinges on the ultimate carrot - the afterlife. You place your faith in life after death being real and us not simply shutting down like unplugging the TV. Not a bad motivator, I imagine the fear of non-existence after death terrifies a lot of people.

 

[bulldoza]

.....why is god portrayed in religion as male?.....

I don't know the 'official' answer to that question but I am guessing that since Jesus often refers to God as His Father and fathers are obviously males then God is portrayed as male.