Is there a GOD?

[wayneL]

Robroy, I think that, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., director of the Human Genome Project, probabably feels sad for those that don't believe as well.

Indeed.

It doesn't help these discussions to go down this path of subtle deprecation of others views. That's how these types of threads turn to sh!te.

Let's not go there folks.

 

[2020hindsight]

2020hindsight vs Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the Human Genome Project. Interesting ....

weird, My post was not in reply to yours - just that it took me 15 or 20 minutes to draft it, and hence it appears to be in reply to yours - just a coincidence. But yes, certainly, those posts make an interesting clash on first sight . Not sure Collins would dispute the video I posted , (i.e. "Why Creationists are WRONG about MacroEvolution") - but that's another story. (PS You'll have to tell us what you think btw )

btw, It ain't me vs you, or me vs Franscis S Collins, it appears to be "cdk007" vs Francis S Collins.
Here is cdk's profile, 28 year old scientist, similar qualifications to your friend, my friend.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=cdk007
Intelligence is awareness of ignorance. Stupidity is ignorance of ignorance. Think about it.
Age: 28
vi veri veniversum vivus vici
As it is a common theme to attack the person and not the argument I thought I would post a list of my degrees in order to dissuade such an attack.
High School Diploma
Associates Degree Chemistry
Associates Degree Physics (Astro-physics)
Bachelors Degree Botany
Masters Degree Biology
Ph.D. Molecular Neuroscience

My goal on YouTube is not to change anyone's mind but rather to give those that are seeking information the truth in the form of hard scientific facts and in the process expose many who claim to offer the truth as liars.
Occupation: Scientist

Changing tack somewhat... This one might cheer you up. It concerns which version of the Hymn "Nearer, my God, to Thee" was sung whilst the Titanic went down. The 8 members of the band went down as heroes of course. Doesn't have much to do with whether there's a god or not, but certainly shows that when the chips are down, mankind's natural choice is to look up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic#_note-finale Some events during the Titanic disaster have had a legendary impact. One of the most famous stories of Titanic is of the band. On 15 April, Titanic's eight-member band, led by Wallace Hartley, had assembled in the first class lounge in an effort to keep passengers calm and upbeat. Later they would move on to the forward half of the boat deck. Band members had played during Sunday worship services the previous morning, and the band continued playing music even when it became apparent the ship was going to sink.

A memorial in Southampton to the Titanic's musiciansNone of the band members survived the sinking, and there has been much speculation about what their last song was. Some witnesses said the final song played was the hymn "Nearer, my God, to Thee". However, there are three versions of this song in existence and no one really knows which version, if any, was played.

two versions of the film, each with different version of that hymn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-1b1Yvep8 Nearer My God To Thee
(old film)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDqOLseR4_I&mode=related&search= Nearer My God To Thee (remake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtE0Y6CTQMQ&mode=related&search= (full orchestral)

 

[2020hindsight]

PS Weird ...
Your friend asks

"What is the meaning of life?"
"Why am I here?"
"Why does mathematics work, anyway?"
"If the universe had a beginning, who created it?"
"Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?"
"Why do humans have a moral sense?"
"What happens after we die?"

I would ask, "Why look outside ourselves and invent some omnipotent omnipresent 'thingo' to find these answers." (assuming that that is his idea of god, there being many others)

To be honest , unless we define our terms it is crazy to argue, the threads so far have proven there are almost countless versions of "god", and your friend presumably has just one of them.

But he quotes something that I posted way back there as well (mainly because it;s bloody obvious, but also because I'd just heard it on the BBC driving home from work) -

.. reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required.

The BBC interviewee likened faith more to self-hypnosis than to anything based in fact or science. ( he was just a kiwi, but he made sense - well for a kiwi anyway). You and others might disagree. But I find that plausible. I mean Einstein would apparently agree with the evolutionists for a start lol ( if you want to start quoting peoples qualifications) And also with those that think that "man is his own moral boss".

http://www.humboldt1.com/~gralsto/einstein/quotes.html

"What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world." --Albert Einstein

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." --Albert Einstein

I guess Einstein is saying "Why do we have a moral sense? because we chose to be moral - not because we want to go to Heaven etc. "

In conclusion/summary, I think the posters here did a pretty good job of coming up with countless options for "meaning to life" on the thread that bears that name. And only a small percentage referred to God as I recall.

 

[2020hindsight]

To be fair even Einsten had a few romantic bones in his body...

"Gravity cannot be held responsible for people falling in love." -- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."

"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it seems like two hours - that's relativity."

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio, replied:
"You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat."

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible."

"The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one."

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Through the release of atomic energy, our generation has brought into the world the most revolutionary force since prehistoric man's discovery of fire. This basic force of the universe cannot be fitted into the outmoded concept of narrow nationalisms.
For there is no secret and there is no defense; there is no possibility of control except through the aroused understanding and insistence of the peoples of the world. We scientists recognise our inescapable responsibility to carry to our fellow citizens an understanding of atomic energy and its implication for society. In this lies our only security and our only hope - we believe that an informed citizenry will act for life and not for death.

"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."

Gee some of these quotes make it obvious that we should be getting more tolerant of each other, and I personally think that religions are a real disaster in that respect.

lol... (off topic) I bet those scientists applying for grants for research would like this quote :-
"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"

 

[wayneL]

To be fair even Einsten had a few romantic bones in his body...


Gee some of these quotes make it obvious that we should be getting more tolerant of each other, and I personally think that religions are a real disaster in that respect.

lol... (off topic) I bet those scientists applying for grants for research would like this quote :-
"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"

He must have been a Jedi Master

Certainly an honourary Jedi anyway

 

[tech/a]

FWIW.

My current view is.

(1) Religion of all sorts is man made at some point.
(2) Gods are invented by man to explain the un explainable.
(3) The enormity of Evolution is underestimated from --whatever origin to now evolution in billions of different forms-- all over the cosmos various diverse forms of life and NON life evolve. Becoming a never ending dynamic end product of evolution itself.
(4) Spirit world. Again I suspect a man made concept. However Ants cannot percieve our existance and I know I'm here---One thing I am certain of (Due to our limitations as humans) is that we cannot possibly understand or even percieve all that there is to know.
(5) Our place in the scheme of things.-- Continuation of species. A single existance is as important as all and any yet as meaningless as that of a single life in ANY species.

 

[2020hindsight]

He must have been a Jedi Master

Certainly an honourary Jedi anyway

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with .... sticks and stones.... and light beam swords?."

(may the force be with you, Wayne, in your fight against the farce (whatever you perceive that force to be - and that farce to be lol - we all have our own individual perception of ObiWan - and of Darth Vada lol)
PS Fee Fie Foe Fum, I smell the blood of a Canadian"

 

[wayneL]

/\ I've just been sworn in as a Jedi Knight. Darth Vader beware

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with .... sticks and stones.... and light beam swords?."

(may the force be with you, Wayne, in your fight against the farce (whatever you perceive that force to be - and that farce to be lol - we all have our own individual perception of ObiWan - and of Darth Vada lol)
PS Fee Fie Foe Fum, I smell the blood of a Canadian"

 

[2020hindsight]

/\ I've just been sworn in as a Jedi Knight. Darth Vader beware

lol - you're dropping your left shoulder!! watch that left shoulder!!

my wife has some rels from west coast SI NZ - we went to meet up with them - two old churches standing in an old glacial river bed - rocks as far as the eye can see - (and very little else)
it was explained to us that the two churches ( Catholic and Angican) had to be placed that far apart - to stop them throwing said rocks at each other (in keeping with BWacall's joke lol)

 

[Robroy]

Robroy, I think that, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., director of the Human Genome Project, probabably feels sad for those that don't believe as well.

I'm afraid that the argument that a scientist believes in God doesn't cut it as one worth addressing guys.

I went to the trouble (above) of laying out a careful, unemotive case for the probable non-existence of God.

 

[tech/a]

Robroy

Pretty well sums it up.

 

[BIG BWACULL]

Just To lighten the mood every now and then CHEERS B.B
This from an e-mail jokester from Spain by the name of: irene.henry

The other day I went up to a local Christian bookstore and saw a "honk if you love Jesus" bumper sticker. I was feeling particularly sassy that day because I had just come from a thrilling choir performance, followed by a thunderous prayer meeting, so I bought the sticker and put it on my bumper.

Boy, I'm glad I did! What an uplifting experience followed!

I was stopped at a red light at a busy intersection, just lost in thought about the Lord and how good He is...and I didn't notice that the light had changed. It is a good thing someone else loves Jesus because if he hadn't honked, I'd never have noticed! I found that LOTS of people love Jesus!

While I was sitting there, the guy behind started honking like crazy, and then he leaned out of his window and screamed, "For the love of GOD! GO! GO! Jesus Christ, GO!"

What an exuberant cheerleader he was for Jesus! Everyone started honking! I just leaned out of my window and started waving and smiling at all these loving people. I even honked my horn a few times to share in the love!

There must have been a man from Florida back there because I heard him yelling something about a "sunny beach"... I saw another guy waving in a funny way with only his middle finger stuck up in the air. I asked my teenage grandson in the back seat what that meant, he said that it was probably a Hawaiian good luck sign or something.
Well, I've never met anyone from Hawaii, so I leaned out the window and gave him the good luck sign back. My grandson burst out laughing ... he was enjoying this religious experience, too!

A couple of the people were so caught up in the joy of the moment that they got out of their cars and started walking towards me. I bet they wanted to pray or ask what church I attended, but this is when I noticed the light had changed. So, I waved to all my sisters and brothers grinning, and drove on through the intersection. I noticed I was the only car that got through the intersection before the light changed again and I felt kind of sad that had to leave them after all the love we had shared, so I slowed the car down, leaned out of the window and gave them all the Hawaiian good luck sign one last time as I drove away.

Praise the Lord for such wonderful folks!

 

[weird]

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050811_scientists_god.html

Scientists' Belief in God Varies Starkly by Discipline
By Robert Roy Britt, LiveScience Staff Writer

posted: 11 August 2005 02:24 pm ET

About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion.

Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found.

The opposite had been expected.

Nearly 38 percent of natural scientists -- people in disciplines like physics, chemistry and biology -- said they do not believe in God. Only 31 percent of the social scientists do not believe.

In the new study, Rice University sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund surveyed 1,646 faculty members at elite research universities, asking 36 questions about belief and spiritual practices.

"Based on previous research, we thought that social scientists would be less likely to practice religion than natural scientists are, but our data showed just the opposite," Ecklund said.

Some stand-out stats: 41 percent of the biologists don't believe, while that figure is just 27 percent among political scientists.

In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.

"Now we must examine the nature of these differences," Ecklund said today. "Many scientists see themselves as having a spirituality not attached to a particular religious tradition. Some scientists who don't believe in God see themselves as very spiritual people. They have a way outside of themselves that they use to understand the meaning of life."

Ecklund and colleagues are now conducting longer interviews with some of the participants to try and figure it all out.

 

[2020hindsight]

/\ I've just been sworn in as a Jedi Knight. Darth Vader beware

Wayne, a light poem (pun unintended) - probably needs a quick explanation :- Mount Tabor is allegedly where Jesus transfigured / glowed in front of his disciples :-

Tabor Mount, a mountain in N Israel, E of Nazareth. 1929 ft. (588 m). Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary :-

Now Jebel et-Tur, a cone-like prominent mountain, 11 miles west of the Sea of Galilee. It is about 1,843 feet high. The view from the summit of it is said to be singularly extensive and grand. This is alluded to in Ps. 89:12; Jer. 46:18. .... There is an old tradition, which, however, is unfounded, that it was the scene of the transfiguration of our Lord.

.
Different times and different craving, attitudes to Gods and Tabors
where JC transfigured, waving, told disciples "love thy neigbours"
Different flags are furled and waving, attitudes to life and labours
...
Youngsters chase big surf, ...life saving
Jedi old men want .....light sabres.

PS This from a previous post on lyrics thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytNoiQ8LkS8 heaven on their mind 1973
Comment on youtube :- Pomtiedom, 56 year old dutchman "... I like the way the loneliness of this guy is accentuated by the vastness of the desert around him. Besides that, great performance by Carl Anderson"

 

[Mousie]

I'm afraid that the argument that a scientist believes in God doesn't cut it as one worth addressing guys.

I went to the trouble (above) of laying out a careful, unemotive case for the probable non-existence of God.

Unemotive? Probably. Full of logical holes? Definitely.

You would just about have to be God yourself to say there was no God and you knew that for sure.

I'm not God. But I believe I'm a less-superior version of God just based on personal observation (ie without relying on other sources, and therefore potentially answering the question of "Is there a God?" with FAITH based upon my belief in the accuracy of materials presented to me, as tech/a and a few others on this thread originally and repeatedly requested) of how I am made and how all things nature are made.

Besides, has anyone noticed how, if God does not exist since the beginning of time, we keep on debating these kinda things month after month, year after year, decade after decade, centuries after centuries, even millenia after millenia? Interesting, ain't it?

But the the reasons a God is highly unlikely IMO are:

1. The universe (Big Bang) did not require a supervening force to come into existence, or remain in existence. (Read Paul Davies' 'God & The New Physics' - he outlines it in some detail.) It was capable of doing it spontaneously.

Clearly a faith-based point as defined previously.

2. The organic world (life - including us) did not require a God to come into existence either. The spontaneous exchange of sub-cellular information in the primeval soup led to cells...and the rest is history.

Please explain this more clearly in ways all of us can see for ourselves.

3. Religion is adaptive (it helped H. sapiens to survive), so we are hard-wired to be inclined to believe in a God. That gives rise to a huge panoply of emotions, deeply-held beliefs and convictions, and cherished ideals (to say nothing of religions, spiritual groups, et al) - all of them subjective experiences caused by our neural wiring, with no corresponding reality outside of that wiring.

We don't need religion to survive. The last I checked on my atheist friend of 18 years, he's all right (and still an atheist after 18 years). About emotions, they all stem from beliefs of any kind; if we strongly believe in something, there'll be emotions involved. And BTW, these emotions are not all subjective, either - are we not supposed to marvel at the beauty of women? Or at the diversity of sea creatures when scuba diving?

4. The human brain has in the last 25 years been sufficiently mapped to give us an understanding of how 'spiritual experiences' arise. (This mainly applies to the more Eastern- and 'inner journey'-oriented God-believers.) E.g. your sense of timelessness arises when one part of the brain is temporarily lulled, your sense of 'the presence of a superior power' arises when another part is stimulated, etc etc. That's why religions chant, pray, meditate and sometimes dance rhythmically: these things lull/stir the central nervous system in the required ways. It's well-understood stuff now.

This scientific finding in itself does not refute the existence of God.

5. In the entirety of human history, there has not been a single piece of evidence for the existence of God. This period includes the 200-odd year history of science, and the 100+ year history of cameras, film and audio recording devices. Not a photo, not a single pulse of data - in all of known time.

The entire nature points out God's existence to me, deafeningly loud and clear, even in the silence of the fields.

BTW, photos and films can be doctored, and pulses of data can be manipulated. I can say "I know this is God, here, I took a video of him" and still there'll be plenty of sceptics, and rightfully so.

Whatever is man-made can be used to deceive; whatever is God-made cannot. With God, (apologies to Wysiwyg) what you see is what you get.

If you believe in God you do so because your brain (the product of a million years of human and pre-human evolution) has provided you with a religious /spiritual impulse, not because there is anything divine out there, in there, or anywhere else.

I actually partially agree with the first part of the sentence. It only makes sense that we have some kind of impulse to want to relate to the divine because God made us (and all of nature), and he has his signature on us in various ways, so why can not this be in the form of an impulse to want to know all things God?

I personally find this sad by the way - I understand the desire to have a God in the Universe. But me wanting doesn't make it so.

You don't have to be, really

 

[retroaugogo]

The evidence that there is a God, to me is overwhelming.

To the unbelievers,a simple question that deserves a simple answer.

What would it take to turn you from an atheist into a genuine believer?

 

[stockGURU]

Which god are we talking about here?

Is everyone who responded in the affirmative a believer in the Christian god or are there believers in other gods out there?

 

[waza1960]

It doesn't matter to me if there is a god or not.I'm 95% athiest,perhaps the other 5% may believe in some form of spirituality however I believe that you can spend too much time and thought on religion.I just concentrate on doing the right thing by my family and everbody I have contact with i.e treat them as I like to be treated and broadly follow the ten commandments but I don't need to be religious to do this.I find that some of the people who are religious do not have high morals but generally if some people need religion as a prop or need to believe I don't have a problem with it as long as they don't impose their views on others.

 

[imajica]

GOD is a cultural construct - "we" invented this omnipotent overseer to make ourselves feel comforted - the universe is a chaotic, constantly evolving landscape and we are merely biological products forged from the crucible of its constituencies - to attempt to precict or define what is beyond our comprehension (ie-outside our own solar system - or even beyond the border of the 'infinite' universe) is pointless - it is something we will never witness or fully understand -

I think the main point must be raised - whether or not ''GOD" exists is irrelevant - the social and cultural effect of the widespread belief in the vast multitude of religions around the world has a real impact in terms of violence, intolerance, civil war, persecution etc

As i have said previously - faith and devotion to any religion involves the participant allowing themselves to become 'infected' with its linguistic and ideological viruses - once they take hold - 'true'' believers are very hard to de-program - religion is merely a manipulative social tool for cementing and propagating a particular agenda - usually a dominant, mysogynistic discourse.

 

[retroaugogo]

Interesting that many use the argument that religion is used by the weak for comfort.

The same people state that religion is the cause of all the strife in the world.

So if all these religious people are so weak and comfortable why are they causing so much strife?