Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Is the commodities boom over?

Is the commodities boom over?

  • Yes

    Votes: 43 24.9%
  • No

    Votes: 119 68.8%
  • What's a commodity?

    Votes: 11 6.4%

  • Total voters
    173
  • Poll closed .
Joined
23 March 2005
Posts
1,943
Reactions
1
Could it really be?


THE commodities boom is over.

Experts say that the super-high prices that commodities have attracted in the past five years are falling and are unlikely to return to peak levels for the forseeable future.


Slowing demand in China and a bleak outlook for the global economy has seen the price of many base metals fall - some to three-year lows.

The CRB commodity index fell 10 per cent last month, the steepest one-month drop since 1980.

Most raw materials have been slipping for months. Oil has dropped to a three-month low after peaking at $147 early last month.

The chain of events has led to Deutsche Bank calling the top of the commodity cycle and advising clients to take profits before the economic downturn casts its spell on the sector.

It warned that oil will slide back towards its "marginal production cost" of $60 to $80 a barrel, gold will slump to $650 an ounce as the US dollar recovers, copper, lead and tin will slowly halve in price and grains will calm down as harvests in Australia and the Eurasian Steppe return to normal.

"Demand from China is softening, so the oil price is coming down as the government in China and other emerging economies lift their subsidies and the high prices lead to lower consumption," Fat Prophets commodities specialist Greg Canavan said.

"Once commodities go through that kind of a bubble - and all of them have - then the market pulls back and it returns to fundamentals. Now we have zinc and nickel prices hitting levels where mines have to close."

Nickel miner Minara revealed an 80 per cent fall in net profits yesterday.

Its shares closed unchanged, but they are down from $7.26 at Christmas to just $1.49.

"There has been huge amount of speculative money going into oil and that was the reason for the sharp spike," Commsec analyst Pieter Bruinstroop said.

An increase in supply of various commodities is also having an effect.

"Remember, when the China growth phenomenon first took off, the whole commodities industry was geared to handle world demand growth of 1-2 per cent a year, but then China came along and that increased to 3-4 per cent a year - virtually doubling demand. And we weren't ready for it, and couldn't handle it, so prices rose," he said.

Now the supply side is responding, and many think there will be a surplus of iron ore at some point in 2009.

"I've never known a commodity to be in surplus and still see its price rise," Mr Bruinstroop said.

Mr Canavan is advising caution on commodity stocks, but said: "If you are in BHP or Rio, investors might have to deal with no share price growth for a year or so. It will probably trade within a certain range but let's face it they've had a good run for the past few years."

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24145898-462,00.html
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

Nickel is up 6% overnight, should see MRE, MCR and others recover. About time nickel turned around, it was getting ridiculously cheap.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

i reckon its just a correction...

long term china/india still growing massively
but us/european slow down will throw out a few curve balls along the way
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

i reckon its just a correction...

long term china/india still growing massively
but us/european slow down will throw out a few curve balls along the way
Will be a major correction playing out for another year at least. Up to 5 maybe. EW'ers are calling a market sidways for 10+ years I think.

If debt levels are reduced enough in the western world, RE comes back to long term trends, and some major policies change in regard to lending practices then perhaps natural world growth will continue without relying on really cheap debt.

After another 5 years, Chindia may be feeding it's own middle class which may equal US demand in 15-20 years. Maybe more.

So, I think major correction in a very long term industrialisation of Chindia.

Then, we look to the development of Latin America (less Brazil and Arg) and then Africa in another 100+ years...
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

Will be a major correction playing out for another year at least. Up to 5 maybe. EW'ers are calling a market sidways for 10+ years I think.

If debt levels are reduced enough in the western world, RE comes back to long term trends, and some major policies change in regard to lending practices then perhaps natural world growth will continue without relying on really cheap debt.

After another 5 years, Chindia may be feeding it's own middle class which may equal US demand in 15-20 years. Maybe more.

So, I think major correction in a very long term industrialisation of Chindia.

Then, we look to the development of Latin America (less Brazil and Arg) and then Africa in another 100+ years...
That's pretty much what my guess is as well. Get this up-coming recession out of the way, how ever long that takes, then a resumption of the bull.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

That's pretty much what my guess is as well. Get this up-coming recession out of the way, how ever long that takes, then a resumption of the bull.
Yeah, pretty broad brush, and I meant urbanisation, moreso than industrialisation. I think. Which ever one means moving to cities and buying plasmas.

Of course, worse case is total meldown if changes are not made, and we're all on the streets fighting for scraps of meat along with the cats and dogs.

I'm not sure when our brain will take over from natural instincts to save us though.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

The fact that so many have voted no; is enough to reinforce what I already believe; which is yes :p:
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

This from Money Morning


Why the Next Six Months Will Be Your Best Chance to Buy Resources Since 2003

The resource bears took a few swipes yesterday, reader. This morning we read that the commodity boom is over.

It’s articles like this that are making companies like BHP cheap. It’s down 25% in a couple of months. And bears will make investing in commodity-based equities a good idea in the second half of the year. It’ll probably be the best opportunity you have to buy mining and energy stocks since 2003.

But buying resources is not as clear (or easy) as it once was, as you’ve probably found. And that article above isn’t just pessimistic. It’s utterly dismal. We felt like a pallbearer as we read.

“Demand from China is softening….the CRB Commodity Index fell 10% last month…gold will slump to $650 an ounce…”

Hey…we’re still locked up in our room with some sort of allergic reaction. But we’re not that feverish. Let’s unpack those comments.

China Shifts Gears to a Domestic Boom

“Demand from China is softening.”

Quite possibly true. China’s annual GDP is running at a rate of about 10% this month. That’s about 1.8% down on the high it hit last year. That means consumption has probably fallen off too.

But so has every country. It’s what happens in a credit crisis. You can put the drop in economic growth so far down to the shockwaves from America…not a fundamental demolition of Asian demand.

If you think that fall is a reason for dropping your Chinese-related investments, you automatically make an assumption. You assume that American spending is more important to China’s growth than Chinese spending.

That may have been true in the past. It won’t be in the future. China hasn’t yet accumulated the same income levels as Uncle Sam. But for every spender in the US, there are four in China. Add in India, and it’s more like eight.

And the tide is turning as we write. Chris Shaw from www.fnarena.com notes that
China has shifted focus from exports to the domestic economy. How? Encouraging retail sales and industrial production.

So we don’t see a slowing China as the end of the boom this month. It’s more of a correction. Who knows? Maybe China needed this. It’s possible to grow too fast.

And looking at the 10% drop in commodity prices…well, that depends on your view of China. If you think it’s going down the toilet, be our guest and sell everything. If you think it’ll keep growing, commodities aren’t dropping. They’re getting cheaper.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

The amount of money China is investing in infrastructure at this time is astounding. I don't have figures but i read in the China Daily a summary of the projects just in the big cities and surrounds. Under sea tunnels, bay bridges, tollways, subways, etc. All of this activity will continue to provide jobs, and consume resources. Export growth has stopped and started to slide the other way now and so have jobs in factories.

It used to be that a container from China to the US was scarce as hens teeth, now we struggle to get one from the US to China.

The middle class are spending for sure, you can see it in the 300+ new cars per day purchased in this city alone. Apartments are bought up as soon as they are available, some family's are owning several, leaving them empty or renting them out. I do see the possibility for some loan defaults as credit is not quite as tight as the rest of the world right now. I still see an asset bubble in the property markets but some have started to slide off their highs already.

China will continue to grow, but maybe not at double digits. I'm still amazed that it can keep this pace up, but as others have said before when you urbanize 100s of millions of people, it takes a while.

Cheers,


CanOz
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

A snippet from "The Daily Reckoning"

Well, that's it. Apparently the commodities boom is over. The folks at Deutsche Bank told clients to get out of commodities. They say China is slowing. The whole world is slowing. Oil will return to its "marginal cost of production," somewhere between US$60 and $80 and gold will settle around $650.

--Of course it's possible they're right. You have to take each one of these predictions from the investment banks for what they're worth, though. Sometimes they're late to the party (Goldman Sachs calling for an oil 'super spike' to $200 in March). Sometimes they miss the part altogether. And most of the time they're just morons who are making it up as they go along.

--That said, it's pretty clear the institutional infatuation with commodities as an asset class is over. It's not at all clear the case for resources has been defeated. Remember, the up-trend in resource prices that started in 2003 came at the end of a period where resource prices declined in real terms...for nearly two hundred years.

--Two-hundred year down-trend...three year up-trend...resumption of down-trend? Does that make sense to you?

--Remember, the world's population has doubled since 1960, from three billion to well over six billion. The first two great periods of industrialisation in Europe and North America brought more resources on-stream, and thus, lower prices for tangible goods.

--There was a lot of coal in Newcastle and West Virginia, and a lot of farmland in Kansas. But now, the latest period of industrialisation begins with more people than ever chasing scarce resources. China is not Kansas.

--It could be that demand for resources will fall (as it appears to be doing simultaneously all over the planet). It could also be that in some sectors, supply will finally catch up (this appears to be what's happened with base metals). But what's really changed in the last month is that investors are simply demanding fewer resource shares. That's it. It's important to distinguish investment demand from real demand.

--The trendy investors who want to own the latest "It" sector will be back. Let them go trawl for beaten down financials and retail stocks. If you missed out on the first phase of the boom, this will be your next best chance to get into long-term positions at much lower prices. Those prices may not go anywhere for a year, mind you. But at least it won't be so crowded in the aisles while you browse through firms, projects, and management.

--What we have in the commodity and credit markets now is what the geopolitical crowd calls a kind of "durable disorder." Things can remain disorganised a lot longer than a neat freak would prefer. Replacing one global currency regime with another isn't easy, is it? Yet we still believe that's what you're witnessing and living through: a grand changing of the economic guard. More on that below and why it's bullish for resources.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

guess it depends on the timescale - not establishing this when talking stocks causes 90% of disagreements.
down for the next two years would not mean (necessarilly) that the boom was over; did we expect the recent run to continue for 17 years at the same rate of ascent without retrace??
if you think macro, population growth would need to reverse to stop demand as more peoples = more everything, except room to move and fresh air to breathe.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

The commodities boom is only just beginning..

just because it has had a sharp drop means f all..

china will always need materials

/end thread
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

The commodities boom is only just beginning..

just because it has had a sharp drop means f all..

china will always need materials

/end thread


Well, I guess it's only a boom if you get in at the right price then, isn't it?

Might be like gold - if you bought back over many years ago at a certain date ... you'd still be in the red. Despite the rally of recent times.

I don't believe commodities are in for some major crash; but I believe they're not going anywhere for a while; and to me - this means the boom is over.

What if commodities do crash though? If someone buys into a copper company now, & copper majorly corrects back to $1.50-$2; what do you think will happen to the share price? Many Zinc mines are being closed at the moment, as they're no longer economically viable.

I believe this is going to happen with other base-metals as well. High inflation, rising costs - energy, fuel, wages.

Less demand from China, a potential global recession ... Where's the upside? How can you possibly claim that a potential 5-year correction still allows for it to be classed as one big boom? There may be a new commodities boom in 5 years, but IMO not right now, and not for a while.


Edit:
Yes, China will always need materials ... the world has always needed materials; that doesn't mean there's always been a boom. Pinning the hope / future of Australia on a foreign country is a very foolish mistake as well.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

The commodities boom is only just beginning..

just because it has had a sharp drop means f all..

china will always need materials

/end thread

Thanks for that great contribution.:rolleyes:
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

Over the long term the market index has risen.What will be the driving force to keep the markets on their long term rise?

Information technology, health care, telecomms, inflatable dolls?Financials and commodities are it for Australia.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

China's growth historically is now comparable with strength and duration of other nation's industrialisation.

It will obviously mean that China will keep growing, but maybe not as strongly as in the past.

Likewise, for commodities, it will mean more stable and good prices for some time to come, just without the froth.

But... what's a commodity?
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

You only have to look at the counter trade - the $USD - to see what's happening. I give it another week then back to the slippery snake.:D
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

Many Zinc mines are being closed at the moment, as they're no longer economically viable. .

That is why zinc explorers that are fully funded should be high on everyone's watchlist as they profit from a supply crunch in 2010/2011. Specific commodity cycles operating within a super cycle.

This thread is way to generic.
 
Re: The commodities boom is over

We are suppose to be in a resource/commodities "super cycle".

8 >10 years to run yet.
 
Top