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Is Global Warming becoming unstoppable?

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SirRumpole said:
Seems allright to me. Why bs wayne ?
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There are several current articles detailing the folly of green policies over decades. I have a client with a high position in the SES, who has been telling me the same thing for years.

Years ago I had a client in the WA Dept of CALM, who was saying the same thing way back then.

You lot will believe what you want to believe, but the people on the ground say different.
 
Unfortunately as Wayne says, there has been a two pronged attack against burning off, one by the greens, the other by budget constraints from what Ive heard.
The pictures of koalas being burnt, was never a good look, but it is also easy to be smug and say well the wildlife numbers have increased, due to reduction in prescribed burning.
Then when out of control bushfires take off, the chant is global warming, it is very easy to mould the chant to the flavour of the day, when no accountability is attached.
The ash wednesday fires in Victoria where very bad and they werent attributed to global warming.
Anyway the whole debate by the left wing is becomming very sad IMO, they will end up allienating themselves, from all avenues and platforms for debate. Just my opinion
They are becomming an example of what Turnbull said about some, " miserable ghosts", driven by hate.
Again just my opinion and no doubt plenty will dissaree.
 
A heart felt observation from someone who is totally across what has happened in Glen Innes.

By the way I don't know where anyone gets this "bushfires attributed to global warming".

Not the case. Never claimed. Never has been.

Global Warming just makes the the climate hotter and hotter. Drys the bush out more and more. Creates extreme weather conditions.
So. When there is a fire, whether by lightning, human error, or human activity, the scene is set for a potential conflagration unmatched by most pre global warming situations. Check out the previous posts.

We've been in bushfire hell in Glen Innes – and the scientists knew it was coming
Carol Sparks
My community deserves the unvarnished truth from me, its mayor. Ignorance and arrogance delivered us ashes
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-innes-and-the-scientists-knew-it-was-coming
 
rederob said:
Many of these areas experiencing severe bushfires have had precious little to burn off for a number of years as livestock have been increasingly hand fed.
And while it was possible to burn off safely in the past, more recently the bushlands have been tinder-dry year round, so it has not been safe to burn off at any time of year.
Country fire authorities are not stupid, and they understand the threat imposed as a result of not having had the former opportunities to do controlled back-burns in vulnerable areas. Farmers too are not stupid, and more than anyone fear the threat of bushfires so do more than most to ensure they will not be affected: sadly some did not realise how severe the fires now are.
You might be barking up the wrong tree.
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I won't be as abrupt as WayneL but to put it simply, we do not have a choice, we MUST reduce the rubbish.

I will explain how the Greens have the best of intentions but have it completely back to front. By allowing the bush to grow without reduction we are making the fires far worse than they have ever been in our known history of the past 50 thousand years.

The only flora and fauna left alive in Oz after 50 thousand years of aboriginal bush management have adapted to the "burnt off as often as possible" environment.

A simple example which the Green brigade ignore, Koalas have only one defence mechanism to escape fires. They cannot run fast at all, maybe a bit of a scoot for 10 metres but that is only to reach the nearest tree.

When they smell smoke they climb up the nearest tall tree, right to the very top, I know because I have seen them do it on my place. Now, if the fire is in winter, the flames run along the ground, perhaps 1 to 2 metres high, quite often only 1/2 of that.

A small amount of smoke does not worry them as they may be 10m above it but in fact they have no choice, that is all they are capable of doing to survive.

Before urbanisation and pet dogs, there used to koalas all over the place in Port Stephens, they still wander through peoples backyards (if no dogs). They wander across roads, sit in the middle of roads, in parks, heaps of them in both areas that I have lived.

Those very same koalas survived the bush being burned every year by the Worimi tribe and the early settlers. The local land council still burn off their areas every year, they are officially exempt from all the red tape and the wildlife flourishes there.

When I was a young bloke, 60 years ago, the bush used to be burnt off alternate years, one side of the main (only) road one year, the other side the next. The wildlife simply crossed the road and was safe because it was done in the winter months and the fire was easy to contain.

Now, because of the red tape that does not happen, the fires have mountains of fuel and in the right conditions the rubbish on the ground ignites, flares, crowns and then the wind can grab it and away it goes.

About 5 years ago we had a fire on nearby Crown land, this used to be burnt off one third per year, so a three year cycle. This was stopped, after 10 years it went up in 3 days, 39 koalas were found burnt, charred or dead. There would have been more that were cremated and not found.

Volunteers walked through the still smouldering trees and logs trying find as many as possible. Can you imagine how they felt ? It is heart rending to see these poor defenseless animals being slaughtered to appease the city green vote.

The same thing happens to all the wildlife, people talk about Australia wiping out our wildlife and they are right !! The Greens and their misguided policies are ensuring that it happens ASAP
 
This.

Carol Sparks is the mayor of Glen Innes Severn council.

Quote..."Already there are armchair experts ready with free advice about meeting with disaster. Let it be made perfectly clear that all the area that burned has already been a fire ground for two months. There were hazard reduction and backburns under state authority last month and last year. The properties were all well-prepared and extensively defended. People who have lived with fire risk for decades knew exactly what to do, and they did it. The full expertise and advice of fire controllers has been heeded at every turn.

I’ll put my 20-year Rural Fire Service medal up against your free advice any day of the week.

The anger is real. The anger is justified. Because this disaster was all foreseen and predicted. For decades the link between a hotter, drier climate, land-clearing, excessive irrigation and increased fire risk have all been attested in scientific papers."...

I grew up on a farm, my Dad grew up on my Grandfathers farm. We were weather watchers, part of the local brigade, sat on the back of the lead truck myself holding the trailing firelighter at just 10 years. Remember Dad being very angry at the Victorian Premier (Sir Henry Bolte) allowing the ball and chains into Heytsbury to clear the bush there for farming, it was sandy soil and the farms failed but interestingly soon after in the late 60s the first bad droughts began.

As a young policeman at Camperdown (about 1975) remember a fire starting near Chatsworth racing through to the Otways. I was the only member on duty west of the stony rises where it passed, it jumped the two chain firebreaks as if they were not there but as said burnt out at the foot of the Otway forests. Why, though it was summer the forests then were thick and therefore cooler, retained moisture and green at the edges.

The Green membership is growing in the country areas as it is becoming clear that our core members do understand. Flaming is not advancing anyone, its time to unite together and try and do something about it all if it is now possible.

As for trees, they are our source of rain and the air we breath.
 
wayneL said:
There are several current articles detailing the folly of green policies over decades. I have a client with a high position in the SES, who has been telling me the same thing for years.

Years ago I had a client in the WA Dept of CALM, who was saying the same thing way back then.

You lot will believe what you want to believe, but the people on the ground say different.
Click to expand...
Green policies do not determine what governments at any level and local authorities actually do wrt to fire management.
Most States have very detailed fire management strategies and these extend to individual managed park areas.
Here's the NSW Fire Management Manual as an example of the detail and thoroughness of their approach, so I believe what I know is being put into practice, as distinct from ancient anecdote or whatever.
That said, large swathes of the countryside are outside of boundaries of government controlled fuel load strategies and that burden then falls to local Councils and individual landholders.
Separately, a matter sometimes overlooked is that responsible agencies who do not abide by their fire management strategies nowadays open themselves to litigation, and where grand scale property, crop and livestock destruction occurs, let alone loss of life, the costs could run into countless millions.
The idea that "green policies" trump loss of life and bankrupting litigation is, imho, somewhat fanciful.
I am walking distance from a koala sanctuary, and kangaroos freely roam nearby streets - an occasionally heartstopping moment when they jump out in front of you while on an evening walk! Those keen to protect the environment value wildlife and if that is your so called "green" then they would be rather conflicted if it came to hugging a tree instead of a koala. I reckon they are smarter than that, and this is yet another smoke screen from folk that feel the need to blame someone very different from themselves.
 
@rederob you are conflating "green" with "The Greens".

The Greens are not really green in the true sense, but green policies are handy for them.

Conservation? Now that's a different beast. I would consider mysef an ardent conservationist, but not a greenie, with all the moronic baggage that entails.

It's a subtle but extremely important difference. Greens (and "The Greens") are morons.
 
Where I am,in a small village,in a bushfire prone area in the Adelaide Hills there are fuel reduction burns every year.The greens have never had any influence in this around us.What is getting harder for the Forestry and CFS is that the days to burn off are getting fewer and the risk of burn-offs getting away from them is real-and happens. One way to reduce the risk is for councils to stop letting people live in these 'at risk' areas.The CFS or RFS cannot protect many of them when a decent fire starts.
After every big fire the blame game starts.One I remember in the 80s, propagated by local farmers, was the planting of pine plantations.
Now the politicians are trying take the' heat' off themselves by blaming others.Everything old is new again.I know state governments take fire risks more seriously.
 
wayneL said:
@rederob you are conflating "green" with "The Greens".
Click to expand...
I spoke of "green policies" and separately said 'if that is your so called "green"' and never mentioned The Greens as a party so nothing was being conflated.
However, I found no evidence that your claim had any element of truth to it.
Aside from that, your remark that the Greens are morons is indefensible and unwarranted, and truly make your contributions here a disgrace.
 
This is another area where the science should prevail and politics, at all levels and of all persuasions, should be firmly pushed aside.

Nothing more can be said really.
 
Smurf1976 said:
This is another area where the science should prevail and politics, at all levels and of all persuasions, should be firmly pushed aside.

Nothing more can be said really.
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Sadly @Smurf1976 the science has been consistent on this for decades, but somehow it is wrong to include it when talking about the increased risk of bushfires.
It seems another case where some people simply refuse to believe what science is offering.
 
wayneL said:
@rederob you are conflating "green" with "The Greens".

The Greens are not really green in the true sense, but green policies are handy for them.

Conservation? Now that's a different beast. I would consider mysef an ardent conservationist, but not a greenie, with all the moronic baggage that entails.

It's a subtle but extremely important difference. Greens (and "The Greens") are morons.
Click to expand...


"morons" you say, care to extrapolate on your meaning on that Ole Pal
 
Received from De Natale tonight:-

"
Hi James

Right now, communities across New South Wales and Queensland are battling another day of extreme fire danger.

To those who live in those areas, and to everyone who has already had to leave their beloved home, we’re thinking of you.

To the more than 3000 firefighters who are on the ground right now, thank you for everything that you do and for the support and care you have shown to everyone who has been affected by the fires already. It's tough to imagine any higher form of courage than defending homes and towns in these unprecedented conditions.

And for those watching from afar and keeping in touch with friends and families in New South Wales or Queensland to make sure they are okay, it is easy to feel terrified and helpless.

But there are things that you can do today.

Support our rural firefighters
Donate to the QLD Rural Fire Brigade
Donate to the NSW Rural Fire Brigade


Help those who’ve lost their homes
The Red Cross are providing services on the ground
to families affected by the fires.


Care for injured wildlife
Fires near Port Macquarie have devastated bushland for
breeding koalas. Port Macquarie Koala Hospital are treating
injured koalas and providing water to dry areas. The Rescue
Collective are supporting burnt wildlife rescued from the QLD fires.


This week, like so many before, has also seen the Morrison government use every trick in the book to avoid being drawn on the link between the climate emergency and the bushfire emergency.

In spite of the science, the Deputy PM has even gone so far as to call those of us, myself included, who make the link between catastrophic bushfires and climate change “disgusting” and “raving inner-city lunatics”.

But, if now is not the time to highlight the government’s disgraceful climate inaction, when is? Just as lobbyists for the US gun industry trot out calls of ‘too soon’ after every mass shooting, so too are the pro-coal advocates attacking anyone who dares connect these fires to the climate crisis. To be silent now is to endanger the lives of Australians.

Those who have experienced the kind of devastation taking place in parts of the country today, like former NSW Fire and Rescue Commissioner Greg Mullins, are also raising the alarm:

If anyone tells you, "This is part of a normal cycle" or "We’ve had fires like this before", smile politely and walk away, because they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Together with 22 other retired fire and emergency service chiefs, we felt we had a duty to tell people how climate change is super-charging our natural disaster risks. I wish we were wrong, but we’re not.”

It beggars belief that the Liberals can be so beholden to their fossil fuel donors that they will refuse to develop policies that keep Australians safe. It was the Liberals who cut the NSW Rural Fire Services by $40 million, and it was the Libs again who refused to meet with fire chiefs earlier this year who had pleaded with them to better prepare for the catastrophic weather events.

To dismiss and ignore the needs of our fire services is gross negligence and will continue to put lives at risk this summer.

So today, rather than buy into yet more dangerous misinformation peddled by right-wing media and politicians, we again acknowledge that we are in a climate emergency and again call on the government to act immediately by:

  • Phasing out coal, oil and methane gas to ensure pollution reduction targets are consistent with science.
  • Supporting the rapid transition to a renewable energy economy that will produce tens of thousands of new jobs.
  • Investing significantly to enhance our capacity for improved land management and national disaster responses.
Lastly, to everyone feeling deeply concerned by our “head in the sand” government, take heart from the knowledge that, more than ever, people are coming together to demand climate action. This government cannot hide forever and, with lives and livelihoods at stake, it is up to all of us to keep the pressure up.

Change is coming. In the meantime, please stay safe and look after each other.

rdn-profile-circle%281%29.png

Richard Di Natale"
 
chiff said:
Where I am,in a small village,in a bushfire prone area in the Adelaide Hills there are fuel reduction burns every year.The greens have never had any influence in this around us.What is getting harder for the Forestry and CFS is that the days to burn off are getting fewer and the risk of burn-offs getting away from them is real-and happens. One way to reduce the risk is for councils to stop letting people live in these 'at risk' areas.The CFS or RFS cannot protect many of them when a decent fire starts.
After every big fire the blame game starts.One I remember in the 80s, propagated by local farmers, was the planting of pine plantations.
Now the politicians are trying take the' heat' off themselves by blaming others.Everything old is new again.I know state governments take fire risks more seriously.
Click to expand...

Anyone that actually knows the current issues understand the window for controlled burns is now critically smaller SFA to do with any political movement or persuasions.

There has been plenty of notice of this, off course drowned out by those with a political ideological agenda.

My own place 5 acres I stopped burning off 5 years ago because I just couldn't be confident of the risk of the burn off getting away.

Note the major Margret River fires were a controlled burn off that got away.

I have just sold up and moved to a lower fire risk zone simply because on a 40 degree day with a strong NE wind the whole area will just go boom nothing to do with the green movement.

BTW grew up in the Perth hills (Stoneville) Jarrah trees right up to our house on 30 acres never an issue of bush fire Dad burnt off every year remember him saying how things had changed where now he thought it was a death trap.

If you don't believe the climate has / is changing fine, just look the other way.
 
Cretins like McCormack who don't listen to firefighters on the ground who keep saying that that the fires are starting earlier, lasting longer and are more intense than ever don't deserve to be in Parliament.

Whether climate change is at fault (which seems pretty obvious) or not , the reality is that more resources will have to be put into fire prevention and mitigation. To cut funds to firefighters in these conditions is criminal (in the most serious sense of the word), it may well have cost lives.

Governments who fail to properly fund fire services on the grounds that it's only a temporary situation and we will always have fires blah blah blah are simply ignoring the reality that the situation is getting worse very quickly and they have to accept the responsibility of reducing the threat before more people are killed.
 
On the climate issue I'll simply note that apart from all the data and scientific analysis etc, what I've personally observed says much the same.

There are places that had permanently flowing water, always at least trickling, when I was a kid. Last few times I've been there it's bone dry unless it's actually raining at the time.

Likewise I remember as a kid we used to get ice on the windows of the house. On the inside of the glass that is. These days in the same area I'm assued at it's rare for there to be ice anywhere.

And so on. Lots of little things like that which many have observed and they mostly do point in the same general direction.

On the bushfire management aspect though, well I won't post the details of location on a publicly accessible forum just in case there's an arsonist or two reading it (no offence to anyone but you never know who may see this) but there are places I've walked through which are knee deep in leaves, dry small branches etc and in case that's not bad enough they're fairly steep too. Now I walked there from a starting point in an urban area on the fringe of a capital city and we're talking an hour or two's walking to get to that sort of conditions.

There have certainly been conditions when that could have been burned off in a controlled manner and to not have done so is negligent yes.
 
Excellent analysis of the situation around controlled burning. The challenge is the shorter times now available and the heightened risk of burns getting away

Barnaby Joyces' rubbish is just that. Should be kicked out of Parliament as far as the eye can see. And he can take his fellow deniers with him:mad:

Factcheck: Is there really a green conspiracy to stop bushfire hazard reduction?
Firefighters are trying to contain dozens of fires across two states, but a familiar blame game has already begun.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-conspiracy-to-stop-bushfire-hazard-reduction
 
Thanks Bas for those that don't read the Guardian for ideological reasons argue with this bloke.......


A former NSW fire and rescue commissioner, Greg Mullins, has written this week that the hotter and drier conditions, and the higher fire danger ratings, were preventing agencies from carrying out prescribed burning.

He said: “Blaming ‘greenies’ for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.”"
 

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