Is Global Warming becoming unstoppable?

[Knobby22]

Of course you do.

And you think the opposite!

So argue the case rather than the man!

 

[Knobby22]

I thought communism was a fading fad, apparently i'm wrong.

Talk about the straw man argument.

 

[sptrawler]

And you think the opposite!

So argue the case rather than the man!

The case Knobby will be self resolving, if global warming has become unstoppable, well then kick back and enjoy the show.
The facts are as they stand at the moment, as proven by Durban, is we are the only ones doing anything of significance and we really aren't anyway..
However if you read this article, you will realise as has been said on other posts, that the technology isn't available at this point in time. To make a radical change to what we are currently doing, that is unless we go nuclear.
The government has now back flipped on clean power stations.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...abor-greens-rift/story-e6frg6xf-1226221345966

Energy Minister Martin Ferguson used the white paper to reveal that the government had scrapped plans to mandate clean power stations, ditching the Prime Minister's election promise to require new coal-fired electricity generators to adhere to tough carbon pollution standards or be ready for carbon capture and storage technology.
So arguing about something, that at this point in time nobody is going to be able to fix is crazy.
All the carbon tax is going to do is increase electricity costs which in turn will reduce peoples consumption. The same as taxing them more would make them have to cut back because they wouldn't have the money to pay the bill.
Hang on isn't that the same thing.

 

[Calliope]

We certainly should be developing a policy now to deal with the effects of the warming (which is probably inevitable if we take the scientific predictions at face value).

The only policy that could reduce greenhouse gas emissions would be to put the brakes on the development of a middle class in developing countries. We have no moral right to insist on this and these countries are not going to do it voluntarily.

If it's a choice for India between creating a middle-class society and greenhouse abatement, the middle class will win hands down. That may be a good thing or not, but it's as safe a bet as you could find in global politics.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-are-set-to-soar/story-e6frg76f-1226222298108

 

[bellenuit]

The only policy that could reduce greenhouse gas emissions would be to put the brakes on the development of a middle class in developing countries. We have no moral right to insist on this and these countries are not going to do it voluntarily.

What I said was:

We certainly should be developing a policy now to deal with the effects of the warming (which is probably inevitable if we take the scientific predictions at face value)

If we can't stop warming then we should put in place policies that will mitigate the effects of the warming, just as we would do for any other natural event that we are fairly certain might happen and where it might happen.

 

[basilio]

What I said was:

We certainly should be developing a policy now to deal with the effects of the warming (which is probably inevitable if we take the scientific predictions at face value)

If we can't stop warming then we should put in place policies that will mitigate the effects of the warming, just as we would do for any other natural event that we are fairly certain might happen and where it might happen.

Bellenuit IF global warming was just going to be 2 degrees C there could be a case for taking some meaningful adapative action. But if you have been following the science and accept the broad conclusions of climate scientists you would be aware we are facing much higher temperature increases.

That article you referenced on the methane gas escaping the Arctic sea floor was possibly the last straw in terms of tipping points.

 

[sptrawler]

What I said was:

We certainly should be developing a policy now to deal with the effects of the warming (which is probably inevitable if we take the scientific predictions at face value)

If we can't stop warming then we should put in place policies that will mitigate the effects of the warming, just as we would do for any other natural event that we are fairly certain might happen and where it might happen.

I'm with you on this one, get megamoves in and move Perth up onto the Darling Scarp, pronto.

 

[ghotib]

...
However if you read this article, you will realise as has been said on other posts, that the technology isn't available at this point in time. To make a radical change to what we are currently doing, that is unless we go nuclear.
The government has now back flipped on clean power stations....

Regardless of government policy flips, backflips, or triple somersaults, clean energy technology is available now, as report after report has found this year. [url = "http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/think-small-and-kick-out-coal"]Climate Spectator[/url] has an article today about another one, this time from UTS. An exerpt:

...a serious challenge to the network operators who plan to spend $45 billion on network upgrades in the current five year period, and will likely do the same in the next.

The report, Think Small: The Australian Decentralised Energy Roadmap, says one third of this expenditure – $15 billion in the current period – could be avoided if Australia adopted decentralised energy technologies, such as efficient use of energy, peak load management and distributed generation, which means generating plants of 30MW or below, such as small wind farms, biomass plants, solar farms, rooftop PV, small hydro, fuel cells, cogeneration and trigeneration. The study, completed in collaboration with the CSIRO and four other universities, says these are the quickest and cheapest options to reducing emissions and meeting peak demand.

The plummeting cost of setting up renewable energy generation, and its scalability and suitability for distributed generation, means that the developing world can get through a high carbon phase much, much faster than the "First World" did. A hopeful fact IMO.

Also hopeful is that clean energy, light, and heating can be and is being introduced more or less independently of government policies or international treaties through various appropriate technology programmes. One of my favourites is a "solar light bulb" invented by some genius in the Philippines http://www.pinoybisnes.com/business-ideas/how-to-make-solar-bottle-light-bulb/ . It doesn't provide light at night and it's no replacement for electric light, but it's cheap as chips and it's a huge step up in living conditions over no light at all. Another is the solar oven, which works by focussing sunlight. These simple technologies can replace a heck of a lot of burning fuels, which reduces particulate pollution (lung gunk) as well as carbon emissions until more sophisticated clean energy systems are available. And who knows, portability might be an advantage as the effects of the warming globe become more apparent.

ghoti

 

[Julia]

And you think the opposite!

No. I make no claim about any 'side' being right or wrong. I am simply sick of all the hysteria and disgusted that Australia, in a move purely designed to appease the Greens politically, is going to engage in a tax which will significantly disadvantage our economy whilst making no difference to the environment.

So argue the case rather than the man!

Why should you feel you can tell me what to argue or not?
I have no compunction in repeating that you will automatically believe what your 'own side' says. Confirmation bias etc.

I have no interest in pursuing what has become a circular argument where there are:

1. those who passionately believe we are doomed to extinction because of anthropogenic GW.

2. those who dismiss such a notion absolutely.

3. those who simply do not know, are prepared to acknowledge such agnosticism, but who despise hypocritical political moves designed not to alter the climate at all, but merely to ensure the political survival of those instigating such self serving nonsense.

Bellenuit IF global warming was just going to be 2 degrees C there could be a case for taking some meaningful adapative action. But if you have been following the science and accept the broad conclusions of climate scientists you would be aware we are facing much higher temperature increases.
(

So there might even be some hope I could return to live in NZ and not freeze to death?
No such signs so far.

 

[sptrawler]

Regardless of government policy flips, backflips, or triple somersaults, clean energy technology is available now, as report after report has found this year. [url = "http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/think-small-and-kick-out-coal"]Climate Spectator[/url] has an article today about another one, this time from UTS. An exerpt:

The plummeting cost of setting up renewable energy generation, and its scalability and suitability for distributed generation, means that the developing world can get through a high carbon phase much, much faster than the "First World" did. A hopeful fact IMO.

Also hopeful is that clean energy, light, and heating can be and is being introduced more or less independently of government policies or international treaties through various appropriate technology programmes. One of my favourites is a "solar light bulb" invented by some genius in the Philippines http://www.pinoybisnes.com/business-ideas/how-to-make-solar-bottle-light-bulb/ . It doesn't provide light at night and it's no replacement for electric light, but it's cheap as chips and it's a huge step up in living conditions over no light at all. Another is the solar oven, which works by focussing sunlight. These simple technologies can replace a heck of a lot of burning fuels, which reduces particulate pollution (lung gunk) as well as carbon emissions until more sophisticated clean energy systems are available. And who knows, portability might be an advantage as the effects of the warming globe become more apparent.

ghoti

Yes ghoti, the genius light bulb is a 2litre plastic cool drink bottle with liquid in it shoved through the roof, so it is used as a diffuser for sunlight into the room.
Basically a skylight, actually we have improved on that and use reflective tube from a u.v stabilised dome on the roof, You might not have seen them they have only been around for 20 years or so. I have one lighting my kitchen.
Maybe you could send Peter Garrett an email, he might jump on the idea.

 

[ghotib]

That's right spt. It's people who have less than no hope of buying a sky tube or a special-purpose piece of plastic making use of what's available. The less you have, the bigger the difference something very small can make.

I didn't suggest this would ever be a big seller in Australia (though it would have improved some country dunnies I've known). I mentioned it because it's an example of how people who are now desperately poor can improve their living standards through methods (in this case by re-using plastic rubbish) that weren't available in earlier times. The solar light bulb is a long way short of a middle class lifestyle, but it's one indicator that the path from poverty to the middle class doesn't have to depend on burning fossil fuel.

 

[sptrawler]

That's right spt. It's people who have less than no hope of buying a sky tube or a special-purpose piece of plastic making use of what's available. The less you have, the bigger the difference something very small can make.

I didn't suggest this would ever be a big seller in Australia (though it would have improved some country dunnies I've known). I mentioned it because it's an example of how people who are now desperately poor can improve their living standards through methods (in this case by re-using plastic rubbish) that weren't available in earlier times. The solar light bulb is a long way short of a middle class lifestyle, but it's one indicator that the path from poverty to the middle class doesn't have to depend on burning fossil fuel.

Jeez mate get a grip of yourself, if you feel that passionate about it all, take the fuses out of your meter box, shove some empty coke bottles through your roof and feel happy.
Most third world countries are trying to live like us and you want to live like them.
That's really easy, you can afford it, just buy a bush block and a tin shed, then start saving the world.
By the way do you live in a building with electricity,H.W.S, T.V, stove, fridge,ipod,laptop,b.b.q,car in the drive, etc.
No of course not you wouldn't be such a hypocrite, heaven forbid such a thought.

 

[bellenuit]

Bellenuit IF global warming was just going to be 2 degrees C there could be a case for taking some meaningful adapative action. But if you have been following the science and accept the broad conclusions of climate scientists you would be aware we are facing much higher temperature increases.

That article you referenced on the methane gas escaping the Arctic sea floor was possibly the last straw in terms of tipping points.

Well if we have reached the tipping point and if both preventative and adaptive action is pointless, then lets stop wasting any more resources on the issue and use our wealth to make our remaining time as humans enjoyable.

 

[ghotib]

Jeez mate get a grip of yourself, if you feel that passionate about it all, take the fuses out of your meter box, shove some empty coke bottles through your roof and feel happy.
Most third world countries are trying to live like us and you want to live like them.
That's really easy, you can afford it, just buy a bush block and a tin shed, then start saving the world.
By the way do you live in a building with electricity,H.W.S, T.V, stove, fridge,ipod,laptop,b.b.q,car in the drive, etc.
No of course not you wouldn't be such a hypocrite, heaven forbid such a thought.

Where did I say I want to live in a shanty-town on a rubbish dump in Manila? Who would?

The point I'm trying to make is that the developing world does not have to depend on burning fossil fuels to achieve a middle class lifestyle.

Maybe I need to point out that a middle class lifestyle isn't a fixed thing. It's less than a century since the Australian middle class could expect an electricity supply, less than 60 years (i.e. a baby-boomer lifetime) since the middle class had TV, less than 20 years since anyone had a laptop.

You'd need to combine a feeble imagination and a very bad memory to think that middle class life in Australia in 2025 will be the same as middle class life here and now.

 

[sptrawler]

Where did I say I want to live in a shanty-town on a rubbish dump in Manila? Who would?

The point I'm trying to make is that the developing world does not have to depend on burning fossil fuels to achieve a middle class lifestyle.

Maybe I need to point out that a middle class lifestyle isn't a fixed thing. It's less than a century since the Australian middle class could expect an electricity supply, less than 60 years (i.e. a baby-boomer lifetime) since the middle class had TV, less than 20 years since anyone had a laptop.

You'd need to combine a feeble imagination and a very bad memory to think that middle class life in Australia in 2025 will be the same as middle class life here and now.

Refer back to post 243, there is no viable alternative to fossil or nuclear fuel at this time. Jeez.

Make a zillion dollars come up with an alternative, or think about what you are saying.
I really don't want to say stop talking cr@p, because that wouldn't be nice, and you sound like a caring person.

 

[OzWaveGuy]

I would like to say Merry Xmas to all the climate fans in this forum - it's been a brilliantly entertaining year. I must also extend gratitude to Basilio, Knobby et al, for without your presence in these threads I believe far fewer people would be questioning the AGW mantra and researching the facts to uncover the truth of the Global Warming scam.

Only a few years ago, most didn't question the AGW "science", now, a much greater proportion do question what is being fed to them. In essence, the warmists/alarmists here are indirectly helping to uncover the truth by forcing people to research the facts for themselves - the way it should be for any topic or political position.

Oz

 

[Knobby22]

I would like to say Merry Xmas to all the climate fans in this forum - it's been a brilliantly entertaining year. I must also extend gratitude to Basilio, Knobby et al, for without your presence in these threads I believe far fewer people would be questioning the AGW mantra and researching the facts to uncover the truth of the Global Warming scam.

Only a few years ago, most didn't question the AGW "science", now, a much greater proportion do question what is being fed to them. In essence, the warmists/alarmists here are indirectly helping to uncover the truth by forcing people to research the facts for themselves - the way it should be for any topic or political position.

Oz

And I agree with your sentiments Ozwaveguy.

I have learnt a lot about people and how they can believe anything no matter what facts are presented and now understand how Nazi Germany occurred. Keep up the good work and Merry Christmas also.

 

[Calliope]

I have learnt a lot about people and how they can believe anything no matter what facts are presented and now understand how Nazi Germany occurred.

So you "understand" this, but still want to be a part of it?

 

[Knobby22]

So you "understand" this, but still want to be a part of it?

I don't think you should reread what I wrote but it is good you have this understanding also. A successful thread all round.

 

[Calliope]

I don't think you should reread what I wrote but it is good you have this understanding also. A successful thread all round.

Yes, I did reread what you wrote and I think you used a fitting analogy. The Nazis were the alarmists and the sceptics were the resistance fighters.

Spreading fear of Jews, socialists, communists and neighbouring countries was the Nazis stock in trade. Their success at this led them to being democratically elected and eventually to the holocaust.