Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Hydrogen

The EU has some pretty strict requirements for anything to meet their "green" criteria.



The majority of our gas sales goes to Asia and China. Only a small percentage is currently going to Europe, and the same would probably be true for Hydrogen because of distance, competition & trade treaties.
 
I posted this in the EV post last week because there has been an increase in reports that hydrogen is the answer to all our problems, including private transport.

after watching a video about hydrogen, I decided that this needs to be here.

Another nail in the coffin for hydrogen power vehicles, another reason EVs are here to stay -​
Global energy companies are rethinking the wisdom of pumping billions of dollars of capital into an unproven technology with uncertain timing and no guaranteed rate of return. Statkraft, the Norwegian hydro-electricity giant, rolled back its plans last month. “We have definitely underestimated the challenges,” a company spokesman said. “Developing green hydrogen has become much more expensive than we expected.”
824 green hydrogen projects with a theoretical capacity of 21 million tonnes a year were in the pipeline in North America and Europe. But only 2 per cent of the announced capacity reached the planning stage, and just 0.2 per cent were completed.
This is what happens when accountability is nonexistent in a modern society. Experts that are paid extremely well tell us that all the planets are aligned, and governments commit tax dollars to new schemes, only to find that the everyone is looking at another galaxy. Does anyone get reprimanded?​

Politicians and entrepreneurs may be equally prone to the cognitive biases that allow bad ideas to hang around long after they should’ve been dismissed. The redeeming grace of entrepreneurs is the profit motive, which tells them when to stop throwing good money after bad.

Chris Bowen lost in a Forrest of green energy hubris

Energy Minister Chris Bowen was remarkably sanguine last week about the implosion of Andrew Forrest’s plan to produce 15 million tonnes of green hydrogen annually by 2030.

At lunchtime on Wednesday, Bowen told the National Press Club the green hydrogen transition was progressing “at pace”, putting Australia on track to become a renewable energy superpower by the end of the decade. Less than three hours later, Forrest’s Fortescue Metals told investors it was kicking its target down the road from 2030 to a destination one stop short of Never Never Land. In the meantime, Fortescue will concentrate on what it does best: digging stuff out of the ground instead of building castles in the air.

“Reports of the death of green hydrogen have been greatly exaggerated,” said Bowen. Fortescue may have “de-prioritised” green hydrogen, but $200bn of investment was “in the pipeline”. That’s renewable energy speak for “the cheque is in the mail”.

A Boston Consulting survey, published last September, found that 824 green hydrogen projects with a theoretical capacity of 21 million tonnes a year were in the pipeline in North America and Europe. But only 2 per cent of the announced capacity reached the planning stage, and just 0.2 per cent were completed.

Global energy companies are rethinking the wisdom of pumping billions of dollars of capital into an unproven technology with uncertain timing and no guaranteed rate of return. Statkraft, the Norwegian hydro-electricity giant, rolled back its plans last month. “We have definitely underestimated the challenges,” a company spokesman said. “Developing green hydrogen has become much more expensive than we expected.”

Earlier this year, French energy giant Engie dropped plans to build a green hydrogen plant in Portugal. Only this month, the European Court of Auditors criticised the European Union’s 2030 green hydrogen production target of 10 million tonnes as “overambitious”, saying it was unlikely to be met and, therefore, shouldn’t be included in carbon reduction calculations.

It’s been less than three years since Forrest boasted about spending $1bn to build the world’s largest green hydrogen electrolyser manufacturing plant in Gladstone, Queensland.

Forrest explained his plans to convert the Gibson Island ammonia factory in Brisbane to run on green hydrogen. He also committed to building the world’s first green hydrogen import and export facility at Port Kembla, linked to a power station fired by “the miracle molecule …. clean as the day is long … crystal clean, green hydrogen made right here at home”.

Much nonsense has been spoken at the National Press Club over the years, but seldom have journalists been taken on a flight of fancy quite as crazy as the one piloted by Forrest back in October 2021. “To make green hydrogen, you simply split water,” he said. “Any old water … It can be wastewater, desalinated water, sea water into hydrogen and oxygen using renewable electricity only.

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Andrew Forrest signing a workers shirt as he meets Fortescue employees.

“It’s like a miracle molecule, the Swiss Army knife of energy and green products, versatile and able to decarbonise even the most challenging sectors, like, say, iron ore, cement, steel, iron fertilisers, aeroplanes, trucks, trains, cars.”

We now know all this was pure fantasy. The multibillion-dollar projects he promised were technologically unproven and economically unfeasible. There was barely a dollar of committed finance behind them and only the flimsiest of business cases.

We shouldn’t be surprised. Hydrogen has been breaking hearts since 1766, when Henry Cavendish described the production of “inflammable air” by reacting zinc metal with hydrochloric acid. Try as they might, technologists have never overcome hydrogen’s fatal flaw: whatever hydrogen is asked to do, another technology will do it better, safer and cheaper.

Forrest’s 2021 expectations about the cost of green hydrogen were somewhat wide of the mark. The cost had halved, he claimed, because “unlike fossil fuels, green hydrogen was becoming cheaper and would never run out”.

Last week he told Nine Radio in Perth: “We just have to work out now how to produce it cheaply enough.” The collapse of the green hydrogen bubble is a double blow for Bowen.

Green hydrogen manufacturing and the proposed Sun Cable solar development were supposed to provide the portable energy that would turn Australia into a renewable energy export power by the end of the decade. Neither project is going to happen, certainly not by 2030. The collapse of the business case for green hydrogen puts the lie to Bowen’s claim that renewable energy is cheap.

Hours before the Fortescue announcement, he was repeating his trite line at the National Press Club. Yet even Bowen’s cheer squad now doubts the claim, if it is not ready to abandon all of the hopes for a renewable future. Green hydrogen still had a great future, an opinion article in Renew Economy claimed. It’s just there was “limited access to the large amounts of low-cost renewable energy”. Quite.

Many of us have been making that point for some time. The lesson for Bowen from the green hydrogen debacle is that he should stop clogging his diary with carpet-bagging time-wasters and stick with the technology that actually exists. Bowen will never get back the hours he’s spent listening to the green hydrogen salesmen peddling miracle cures for the planet, just as taxpayers are unlikely to see a return on the billions of dollars of poorly scoped subsidies pushed their way.

Yet Bowen is part of a government that believes it understands capital allocation better than the markets. Its Treasurer has fallen for the neo-Marxist fantasy of values-based capitalism and the delusion that innovation should be driven by the state.

It has a Finance Minister who lacks the wisdom to ask tough questions and a Prime Minister content to leave the details to others. Labor will respond to Fortescue’s misadventures by throwing more money into its Hydrogen Headstart program and associated corporate welfare schemes designed to bridge the gap between the cost of manufacturing green hydrogen and the amount customers are willing to pay.

Australia will be caught up in the global sugar war, competing with governments in Europe and North America to pile more sugar on the table. However, it will not have the advantage of cheap energy enjoyed by countries blessed with abundant hydro-electricity or in which nuclear power is legal.

Politicians and entrepreneurs may be equally prone to the cognitive biases that allow bad ideas to hang around long after they should’ve been dismissed. The redeeming grace of entrepreneurs is the profit motive, which tells them when to stop throwing good money after bad.


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I've followed the course of hydrogen development for quite a while, and purchased a small parcel of shares in a hydrogen company waiting and hoping that something big would come.

But Hydrogen development for future use appears to be further away than I had anticipated. I am glad that I have resisted the urge to continue investing in it, though I still hold a very small portion of shares.

Germany, the United States, the UK, the EU, and many other countries are looking toward hydrogen to be a clean miracle fuel to power the future. It sounds good at first, but hydrogen has a bunch of problems - one of which is that it’s highly inefficient. “The most dumb thing I could possibly imagine for energy storage” Elon Musk called it. I agree.

 
hydrogen has three major hurdles .. it's flammability ( and bad press because of that ) , refining it cost effectively ( without subsidies/penalties/incentives ) and the fact that pure water ( as long as it stays pure ) is one of the most corrosive substances known to man ( and most hydrogen fuel plants heavily sell the concept that the exhaust will be water )

i am not saying it can't happen , but watch for advances it these three areas ( the exhaust issue could be solved with a sacrificial agent in the extraction system , for example )
 
California is not sticking to the Hydrogen is dead script.

From California Government
View attachment 181346


Arches is a Californian energy Hub - see ARCHES

Announcements by governments are cheap and plentiful.

The hard part is always fulfilling the expectations created by those announcements.

Mick

Thanks Mick. Let's hope California can make it happen.

I don't quite understand how the Sea Change passenger ferry can be effective and economical, but not transferable anywhere else. Is it because it's actually battery run, not hydrogen?

I'm trying to find success stories for hydrogen, but all I'm coming up with is promise, promise, $$$$ and failure.

Forrest and Bowen are going to look a little bit silly if they can't turn this around.

There's somewhere between $150-200b dedicated to making hydrogen work, just in Australia.

 
I'm trying to find success stories for hydrogen, but all I'm coming up with is promise, promise, $$$$ and failure.

Forrest and Bowen are going to look a little bit silly if they can't turn this around.

There's somewhere between $150-200b dedicated to making hydrogen work, just in Australia.



Same, and I can't find any.

The expense is enormous in every part of hydrogen manufacturing, storage, and dispensing.

One thing I did find out in the above video, is that nuclear power is more efficient when producing hydrogen than solar and wind.
 
The following video could easily have been posted here of the Nuclear Power for Australia thread.

I decide to post in both threads, because our economic future depends on the right decision.

If Andrew Forrest's Fortescue slashing 700 jobs amid green technology commitment due to the difficulty hydrogen is giving him with government backing, and the Germans are having issues, how much money will the Australian government throw at it. Will the Labor Party bet government on it?

Watch from the 7:30 mark.

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This seems to be getting worse.

Is it white elephant, a lemon, or just yet to be understood?

Screenshot 2024-08-19 at 6.41.55 AM.png
 
This seems to be getting worse.

Is it white elephant, a lemon, or just yet to be understood?

View attachment 182798

People got caught up in a dream of keeping combustions engines and at the same time zero emissions. They wanted it so bad that they ignored the past 50 years of hydrogen experiments, ignoring the difficulty of storage and safety. While thinking that renewable electricity is free and would allow cheap hydrogen production, they were half right, Renewables are free. But the solar, wind and lines are expensive.
 
I think hydrogen is a mixed bag, there seem to be many negative connotations about it so much that you don't hear much about it in mainstream media.
It's in its infanacey, they'll find ways to make it cheaper in future.


Apex Clean Energy and the City of Liberal Sign Agreement for Effluent Water Procurement

Pure Hydrogen secures land for Queensland hydrogen hub

I think you are spot on, until it can be made as a secondry process eg as a byproduct of nuclear generation, it is just too inefficient to make.
 
I think hydrogen is a mixed bag, there seem to be many negative connotations about it so much that you don't hear much about it in mainstream media.
It's in its infanacey, they'll find ways to make it cheaper in future.


Apex Clean Energy and the City of Liberal Sign Agreement for Effluent Water Procurement

Pure Hydrogen secures land for Queensland hydrogen hub

Another article that confirms what we think.


The green hydrogen industry seems to have reached a new level of maturity, with its focus switching from the possibilities surrounding green hydrogen to the sobering realities.

And the new reality — widely acknowledged at last week’s Asia-Pacific Hydrogen Summit in Brisbane — is that renewable H2 is expensive and will remain so for many years, and that the sector is now moving more slowly than had been expected in recent years.
 
And the new reality — widely acknowledged at last week’s Asia-Pacific Hydrogen Summit in Brisbane — is that renewable H2 is expensive and will remain so for many years, and that the sector is now moving more slowly than had been expected in recent years.
Spoke with a senior engineer from Santos at a party the other night, I asked a question around the true viability of green hydrogen and he noted that it just wasn’t viable. at least not without extreme subsidisation (artificially propping up the sector), and it likely won’t be viable for many decades.
 
Spoke with a senior engineer from Santos at a party the other night, I asked a question around the true viability of green hydrogen and he noted that it just wasn’t viable. at least not without extreme subsidisation (artificially propping up the sector), and it likely won’t be viable for many decades.
Yes Australia is having enough trouble getting sufficeint renewables to replace coal fired genetation, how they think they can put in enough to make enough h2 for export, is just bottom of the garden fairyland stuff.
We will end up importing hydrogen from China, is my guess.
 
I think hydrogen is a mixed bag, there seem to be many negative connotations about it so much that you don't hear much about it in mainstream media.
It's in its infanacey, they'll find ways to make it cheaper in future.
At a purely technical level hydrogen can be made to work for various applications.

As an example of that, well back in 2006 Targa Tasmania had a somewhat unconventional entrant - a hydrogen powered Toyota Corolla. The hydrogen conversion of that was developed and carried out as a joint effort by the University of Tasmania and Hydro Tasmania. The Uni and the Hydro gave motorsports a go yes.

Now there was never any thought they'd win the race but it demonstrated that a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine, within the body of an otherwise very common vehicle, was a workable, functional concept. They could've just driven it around the streets of course, but entering it in a competition drew public attention and scrutiny which isn't a bad thing - nobody can really accuse anyone of faking it when you're in a real car rally watched by the public.

So a relatively small university and an electricity company in Australia's smallest state managed to do it 18 years ago. Needless to say, it'd be well within the resources and capabilities of $ billions car companies to do likewise and refine it.

Where the problem lays is simply physics. Hydrogen is an abundant element on earth but it's rarely found by itself, normally it's combined with something else most notably carbon or oxygen. Fossil fuels contain hydrogen, carbon and nuisance impurities. Water is hydrogen and oxygen. So there's plenty of hydrogen as such.

Trouble is, to obtain hydrogen from oil or gas somewhat defeats the point of using it. Other than for niche purposes, things that actually require hydrogen for its chemical properties, for anything else well you may just as well burn the natural gas and be done with it. Because it's a net loss to separate the hydrogen from the gas, done using steam reforming which loses about 30% of the original energy content in the natural gas. Same basic issue applies if coal or oil is used as the feedstock, it's a net loss and that being so, unless you really must have hydrogen then it makes more sense to just burn the fuel as is.

The other way is to split water, separate the hydrogen from oxygen by electrolysis, but that requires a huge amount of electricity and also involves losses, the energy content of the produced hydrogen being less than the electricity that goes into producing it. With the added problem that, if the electricity used was produced from fuel combustion, large energy losses are incurred at that step also.

According to the International Renewable Energy Agency, 47% of present world hydrogen production is from natural gas feedstock, 27% from coal, 22% from oil and 4% from electrolysis. In practice a lot of that 4% would be the production of trivial quantities for non-combustion use on site in power stations, chemical plants and so on, it's not production of bulk quantities for sale.

End result is most hydrogen is produced only for specific uses that actually do need hydrogen, it mostly isn't just so that it can be burned in place of some other fuel. Only if there's an abundance of particularly cheap electricity, that was not produced from fuel combustion, does hydrogen start to make sense.

It's not undoable though, indeed the tech isn't even new. Fertiliser production from hydrogen electrolysis of water was up and running in Tasmania from 1953 to the late 1980's. So it's not exactly a new concept.

But to be a goer it needs cheap electricity and lots of it, without that it's a dead end. :2twocents
 
The hydrogen super power dream is certainly starting to look shaky.

Now another hydrogen project facing reality, the problem is, if this project doesn't get up, I would be surprised if the Whyalla steelworks doesn't close.

 
Origin Energy has joined the exodus from the Hydrogen bandwagon.
From Evil murdoch press
Origin Energy is abandoning its ambitious plans to develop hydrogen in the country’s industrial heartland in another blow to the Albanese government’s dreams for the energy source to help drive the transition to net zero.
The group said on Thursday that the decision to exit the proposed Hunter Valley Hydrogen Hub project reflected uncertainty around the “pace and timing of development of the hydrogen market” and the risks associated with developing capital-intensive projects of this nature.

It comes after billionaire Andrew Forrest earlier this year cancelled his own green hydrogen targets in a major business backdown that resulted in the loss of 700 jobs at his flagship company Fortescue.

Origin chief executive Frank Calabria says the company had worked hard to evaluate the investment case for hydrogen and continued to believe hydrogen could play a role in the future energy mix.

“However, it has become clear that the hydrogen market is developing more slowly than anticipated, and there remain risks and both input cost and technology advancements to overcome,” said Mr Calabria. “The combination of these factors mean we are unable to see a current pathway to take a final investment decision on the project.”
Mick
 
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