Hydrogen

[sptrawler]

How many?

The storage tank is a extremely expensive item, and by law must be opened and inspected for internal age-related faults. LPG tanks require an inspection and approval every 10 years, I don't know how often a hydrogen mobile tank needs that inspection or the cost.

In contrast, only two carmakers lease a new production hydrogen vehicle in Australia today – albeit for a limited number of commercial fleet buyers only: the second-generation Toyota Mirai sedan and the Hyundai Nexo SUV.​

Hydrogen or battery-electric cars: Which is right for Australia?

Why are battery EVs starting to take off, while hydrogen continues to be stuck at ground level?

www.whichcar.com.au

Containers are the least of the problems.
Just my opinion and really not worth filling the thread with IMO.
We are both on the same page, batteries will be the stop gap, but they are a finite resource also.
We have to keep moving with technological advancement and that means getting the most energy density, from the least amount of matter and from the most plentiful source.
Just common sense really.

 

[TimeISmoney]

Containers are the least of the problems.
Just my opinion and really not worth filling the thread with IMO.
We are both on the same page, batteries will be the stop gap, but they are a finite resource also.
We have to keep moving with technological advancement and that means getting the most energy density, from the least amount of matter and from the most plentiful source.
Just common sense really.

It's the same old circle of life isn't it, Li is recyclable but it's cheaper to keep pulling it out of the ground ATM.

 

[sptrawler]

It's the same old circle of life isn't it, Li is recyclable but it's cheaper to keep pulling it out of the ground ATM.

Wow perpetual motion.

 

[JohnDe]

Containers are the least of the problems.
Just my opinion and really not worth filling the thread with IMO.
We are both on the same page, batteries will be the stop gap, but they are a finite resource also.
We have to keep moving with technological advancement and that means getting the most energy density, from the least amount of matter and from the most plentiful source.
Just common sense really.

I wouldn't say "the least of the problems". Holding hydrogen in a tank is very hard, it leaks out of conventional materials used for tanks, it is highly flammable, and the flames are almost invisible.

Tanks are expensive, and if manufacturers want to build hydrogen cars they are going to have to come up with a very cheap tank.

However, there is good reason for heavy industry to use hydrogen in machinery like trains, ships, electricity generators. The fuel tanks weight doesn't cause the same issue as it does in a passenger vehicle.

Current hydrogen powered cars use a tank that has to be lightweight, high impact strength, and no leakage. There are several types of tanks.

• Type I: All metal construction;
• Type II: Metal with hoop composite overwrap;
• Type III: Metal liner with full composite overwrap. Composite carries all load;
• Type IV: Polymer liner with a full composite overwrap;
• Type V: Linerless composite vessels.

Last I read, type IV is the current tank style used in cars.

Type I is currently the most widely used vessel, accounting for approximately 90% of the market. However, Type I is more than three times heavier than Type III and Type IV, whereas Type IV costs over 300% more than Type I. Type II is over 50% more expensive and 30–40% lighter than Type I. Type III is 50% lighter but costs more than twice as much as Type II. Additionally, Type III and Type VI offer the advantage of hydrogen storage at higher pressures for higher energy storage density.​

I think that Andrew Forrest's team have been trying to tell him this for quite a while, and he's only come to accept the difficulty after seeing the bank balance drop with no return, and the possible price drop in iron ore when China struggles to sell their merchandise to the USA.

 

[basilio]

The know issue with Hydrogen is producing it at a cost effective price. To date teh technologies so far in production still can't cut it.

However...that doesn't mean there might not be other technical solutions. I came across this project in South Korea that seems quite promising.

Study unveils scalable and efficient photoelectrode modules for green hydrogen production​

by JooHyeon Heo, Ulsan National Institute of Science and Technology



In a development toward practical photoelectrochemical water splitting, a research team has achieved a technological breakthrough in the production of green hydrogen. Through their innovative approach, the team has overcome the challenges of efficiency, stability, and scalability in photoelectrodes, paving the way for practical implementation. The study is published in the journal Nature Energy.

Study unveils scalable and efficient photoelectrode modules for green hydrogen production

In a development toward practical photoelectrochemical water splitting, a research team has achieved a technological breakthrough in the production of green hydrogen. Through their innovative approach, the team has overcome the challenges of efficiency, stability, and scalability in...

techxplore.com

 

[basilio]

On a similar note to my earlier post another resrach group in South Korea has made a major advance in producing Hydrogen from Hematite (iron ore) water and oxygen.

Unlocking the potential of rust: High-efficiency green hydrogen production from hematite​

by JooHyeon Heo, Ulsan National Institute of Science and Technology




Credit: ACS Energy Letters (2024). DOI: 10.1021/acsenergylett.4c01347
A research team affiliated with UNIST has made a discovery in developing a novel technology that produces high-efficiency hydrogen using hematite (α-Fe2O3), a form of iron oxide (Fe2O3), which has been exposed to oxygen and water.
This innovation has led to a 3.2-fold increase in efficiency compared to previous methods for producing hydrogen from water using sunlight. This breakthrough is expected to enable the use of more affordable and environmentally friendly energy in daily life.


Led by Ji-Hyun Jang in the School of Energy and Chemical Engineering at UNIST, the team has developed an eco-friendly hydrogen production system using hematite-based photoelectrodes with excellent electrical properties. The research is published in the journal ACS Energy Letters.

Unlocking the potential of rust: High-efficiency green hydrogen production from hematite

A research team affiliated with UNIST has made a discovery in developing a novel technology that produces high-efficiency hydrogen using hematite (α-Fe2O3), a form of iron oxide (Fe2O3), which has been exposed to oxygen and water.

techxplore.com

 

[Smurf1976]

Why make hydrogen when your only getting 50% return on generation, when you could just export it it as pure generation and get paid for all of it?

With present commercially available technology hydrogen is the energy storage you use when you don't have any other options.

If you don't have a practical option to build hydro (on river, pumped or a combination of both), and the energy storage requirement is too large to do it with batteries, that's when you start looking at hydrogen.

But if you can do it with hydro or batteries then that's a far more efficient approach.

Exception being if you've got some cheap electricity that's intermittently available, and you've got a gas distribution network, then blending some hydrogen into the gas is a proven approach. Has been trialled successfully in part of Adelaide and has been done elsewhere too - and the trial in Adelaide involved real homes occupied by ordinary people with their existing appliances burning the mixed gas. That's only a blend though - the limit is 13% hydrogen mixed with natural gas. Anything beyond that gets problematic in terms of compatibility with existing appliances etc.

 

[sptrawler]

With present commercially available technology hydrogen is the energy storage you use when you don't have any other options.

If you don't have a practical option to build hydro (on river, pumped or a combination of both), and the energy storage requirement is too large to do it with batteries, that's when you start looking at hydrogen.

But if you can do it with hydro or batteries then that's a far more efficient approach.

Exception being if you've got some cheap electricity that's intermittently available, and you've got a gas distribution network, then blending some hydrogen into the gas is a proven approach. Has been trialled successfully in part of Adelaide and has been done elsewhere too - and the trial in Adelaide involved real homes occupied by ordinary people with their existing appliances burning the mixed gas. That's only a blend though - the limit is 13% hydrogen mixed with natural gas. Anything beyond that gets problematic in terms of compatibility with existing appliances etc.

As you know I'm a big fan of hydrogen, but I'm not confident they will install enough renewables to retire existing fossil fueled generation and storage, let alone having excess to produce hydrogen. Lol

 

[sptrawler]

In W.A hydrogen is the only viable option long term and a pilot plant is up and running at Denham.
W.A is both fortunate and in some ways unfortunate, the interconnected grid is quite small, so the amount of renewables required isn't massive, but long duration firming is a problem and where hydrogen will probably be the go to answer.
The other problem with W.A's grid is, if it falls over there is no other source that supply us.
The country towns are quite small, so the power demand is very modest and they make great test beds for trying new technologies.
In the early 1980's there was a concentrated solar storage plant tested at Meekatharra, which wasn't very successful.

Here is a write up on the Denham project, where a hydrogen fuel cell and electrolyser is being tested

Denham Hydrogen Demonstration Plant

We've commissioned a new state-of-the-art hydrogen demonstration plant and dedicated solar farm in the regional seaside town of Denham, Western Australia.

www.horizonpower.com.au

 

[Smurf1976]

W.A is both fortunate and in some ways unfortunate, the interconnected grid is quite small, so the amount of renewables required isn't massive

And one thing WA isn't even slightly short on is land.

In the Australian context along with SA, WA has more reasons to do this than the eastern states.

 

[Sean K]

So, is anything in the government's hydrogen plan still a goer, or do they tear the whole thing up? It seems like they've got a hell of a lot of things, and cash, committed to it?

"Our vision is to build a clean, innovative, safe and competitive hydrogen industry that benefits all Australians. Since the release of Australia’s National Hydrogen Strategy in 2019 there is now a $127 billion pipeline of announced hydrogen investment in Australia."

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/hydrogen

Have to laugh at Leak's last cartoon.

 

[Sean K]

In W.A hydrogen is the only viable option long term and a pilot plant is up and running at Denham.
W.A is both fortunate and in some ways unfortunate, the interconnected grid is quite small, so the amount of renewables required isn't massive, but long duration firming is a problem and where hydrogen will probably be the go to answer.
The other problem with W.A's grid is, if it falls over there is no other source that supply us.
The country towns are quite small, so the power demand is very modest and they make great test beds for trying new technologies.
In the early 1980's there was a concentrated solar storage plant tested at Meekatharra, which wasn't very successful.

Here is a write up on the Denham project, where a hydrogen fuel cell and electrolyser is being tested

Denham Hydrogen Demonstration Plant

We've commissioned a new state-of-the-art hydrogen demonstration plant and dedicated solar farm in the regional seaside town of Denham, Western Australia.

www.horizonpower.com.au

Well, it sounds like that thing's working.

 

[sptrawler]

Well, it sounds like that thing's working.

Yes in W.A there is always test projects being run in country towns, they are a perfect location to test new technologies.
In the early 1980's as I posted there was a concentrated solar storage unit installed at at Meeka, it was a load of parabolic mirrors tracking the sun and focusing the heat onto tubing which had oil circulating, this then went to a boiler and drove a steam turbine.
Denham has had renewable generation of one sort or another complimenting fossil fuel since the early 1990's.
It will be interesting to see how well this new fuel cell goes, if it's successful it will then probably be scaled up into a bigger town.
It's terrific seeing new concepts trailed and proven.

A bit off thread, but worth posting for reference.

What makes up the electricity generation mix in Western Australia?

In WA, our energy generation mix includes a range of energy sources. Learn more about this mix and the transition to renewables.

www.synergy.net.au

 

[JohnDe]

So, is anything in the government's hydrogen plan still a goer, or do they tear the whole thing up? It seems like they've got a hell of a lot of things, and cash, committed to it?

"Our vision is to build a clean, innovative, safe and competitive hydrogen industry that benefits all Australians. Since the release of Australia’s National Hydrogen Strategy in 2019 there is now a $127 billion pipeline of announced hydrogen investment in Australia."

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/hydrogen

Have to laugh at Leak's last cartoon.

View attachment 181053

I hear that major players are asking questions of the SA governments plan on Hydrogen, whether the $550 million is enough and will the green steel produced by it be price competitive.

Potential overseas buyers of Hydrogen do not care how the gas is made, it all comes down to cost.

“Green is far too expensive, and it’s far too long-dated,” Mr Corrie said, calculating that Hazer technology could provide hydrogen buyers in Asia with gas at between $US2 and $US3 a kilogram, compared to north of $US8 per kilogram for green hydrogen.​

Green hydrogen too ‘expensive and inefficient’: Finkel

The architect of the first national clean hydrogen strategy, former chief scientist Alan Finkel, says his support for the fuel has “evolved” and concedes it is difficult to see it replacing gas for heating homes.

Dr Finkel, who was commissioned by the Coalition to deliver a road map for developing a local hydrogen industry, said it was “increasingly clear that green hydrogen is too expensive” and Australia was “unlikely to use hydrogen for storage of electricity”.


A hydrogen tank in Germany. The fuel has been touted as a possible replacement for gas around the world. Bloomberg

The potential of the fuel has come under increasing scrutiny – despite Labor unveiling an $8 billion incentive scheme to support its use this year – after Fortescue, green hydrogen’s biggest proponent, pulled its production target and said it would slow the push into the sector, warning energy prices were too high.

Fortescue’s green hydrogen production was largely bound for export, while Dr Finkel’s comments went to the fuel’s viability for domestic consumption.

“The main role for green hydrogen production in Australia will be as a chemical to produce decarbonised products for export, such as green iron, green alumina, green ammonia, green fertiliser, green jet fuels and renewable diesel,” said Dr Finkel.

“Using renewable electricity to make green hydrogen, then store it, then feed it to a converted gas generator is expensive and inefficient.

“The alternative is to use batteries [and] the price of batteries is following a stunning downward trajectory.”

Some of the material produced under the Turnbull and Morrison governments pointed to the use of hydrogen not only for export – to Japan and South Korea in particular – but for use in heating buildings, as a replacement for petrol and for manufacturing.

Saul Kavonic, an analyst at MST Marquee, said green hydrogen “will be limited to niche applications to be economically viable”, adding many in the market had already discounted it.

Green hydrogen, produced from water through a process powered by renewable energy generation, could instead be displaced by so-called blue hydrogen, which required gas and carbon capture to be considered emissions-free.

Headstart off the pace​

Under the Albanese government’s flagship Hydrogen Headstart program, producers would be paid a subsidy of $2 per kilogram. However, this program excludes blue hydrogen and grey hydrogen, which does not use carbon capture at all.

South Korea’s world-first auction in May for clean hydrogen-based power generation did not differentiate between grey, blue or green hydrogen.

Mike Newman, a former trade commissioner for the NSW government, said it was broadly accepted that international buyers needed more than green hydrogen.

“There is a tacit concession that to grow the entire hydrogen market, grey and blue hydrogen may well be necessary evils to expedite large-scale hydrogen production in the short-medium term before green can be commercially viable,” said Mr Newman, who now runs a business connecting Japanese and Korean investors with local companies.

Japan’s boldest push into Australian hydrogen has been in Victoria, where a project to turn brown coal into clean hydrogen using carbon capture and storage has been allocated $2.35 billion of support by the country’s green innovation fund.

The Victorian government is waiting on the proponents – a consortium including Kawasaki and J-Power – to formally apply before stating whether it will approve the project.

Some Japanese investors have toned down their aggressive pursuit of green hydrogen ventures in Australia, concluding the projects do not stack up economically without a higher subsidy than $2 per kilogram.

“Virtually unanimously everyone seems to conclude the economics are poor on any of the green hydrogen projects unless you get significant state underwriting for projects,” said Milford Asset Management portfolio manager Jason Kururangi, adding Fortescue’s retreat “makes a lot of sense”.

Japanese war chest​

The Japanese government has authorised a ¥3 trillion ($28 billion) war chest to pour into hydrogen projects around the world over the next 15 years. The selection process for the Japanese program is set to start within months.

Australian projects, like that proposed by the Port of Newcastle, are agitating to secure Japanese investment, but the lure of the Biden administration’s enormous Inflation Reduction Act spend has eclipsed Australia.

“We have to consider the amount of hydrogen that can come from Australia versus other countries, whatever the colour,” said Tatsuya Terazawa, chairman of The Institute of Energy Economics Japan.

“Anything that could help the hydrogen support mechanism in Australia to enhance the investment appeal of the project would be a good step, but it would have to be made soon to be in time for the selection process.”


A green hydrogen renewable energy production pipeline.

Woodside Energy, which has delayed a proposed hydrogen project in Oklahoma amid cost uncertainties, said both electrolysis using renewable energy and natural gas reforming would play a role in the energy mix.

“Woodside is targeting to make hydrogen using both techniques because our customers have different end-use cases, volume and schedule requirements, and price sensitivities,” a spokeswoman said, urging the abandonment of green and blue classifications and instead the documentation of the emissions intensity of any by-product.

Move from green to clean​

Samantha McCulloch, the chief executive of Australian Energy Producers, a lobby group for the oil and gas sector, said almost all low-carbon hydrogen produced today was made from gas with carbon capture because it was the lowest-cost and most technologically advanced method.

“This is why other countries, including the US and UK, are incentivising low-carbon hydrogen production from natural gas and [carbon capture utilisation and storage] through a range of initiatives,” she said.

“Australia needs to do the same if we want to gain a foothold into emerging global hydrogen markets while reducing input costs for domestic manufacturers electing to switch to hydrogen.”

Similarly, Glenn Corrie, chief executive of hydrogen technology start-up Hazer Group, said funding should move from supporting green to “clean” hydrogen, noting his technology could deliver gas at one-fifth of the cost of renewables-based hydrogen.

“Green is far too expensive, and it’s far too long-dated,” Mr Corrie said, calculating that Hazer technology could provide hydrogen buyers in Asia with gas at between $US2 and $US3 a kilogram, compared to north of $US8 per kilogram for green hydrogen.

Price risk​

Matthew Rennie, a former EY partner specialising in the energy sector, said the majority of customers switching to hydrogen would be using gas, and were therefore “highly sensitive” to price variations.

“Most of these are in the industrial sectors, which are highly competitive and have less headroom to take on more cost,” said Mr Rennie, who is now-chief executive of Rennie, an independent consultancy.

But Mr Rennie said “blue” hydrogen would also struggle to find a market.

“There is no doubt that blue hydrogen is a more cost-effective supply option than green, and somewhat of a mid-way point between grey and green,” he added.

“What is less clear is whether end use customers will pay a premium for any particular colour, and whether they can ultimately afford to.”

 

[sptrawler]

Fortescue green hydrogen partnership with AGL at former Liddell coal power station mothballed - ABC News

amp-abc-net-au.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Sean K]

Fortescue green hydrogen partnership with AGL at former Liddell coal power station mothballed - ABC News

amp-abc-net-au.cdn.ampproject.org

So, Twiggy is pretty much putting his hands up on hydrogen?

 

[sptrawler]

So, Twiggy is pretty much putting his hands up on hydrogen?

No money in it when producing it from renewables.
He is better off just using batteries and trailing cables at the mine.
Eventually the Govt will realise they have to pay for it and it will take a lot of money, to make a little bit of hydrogen from renewables.
The private sector have already done the numbers IMO.

 

[farmerge]

No money in it when producing it from renewables.
He is better off just using batteries and trailing cables at the mine.
Eventually the Govt will realise they have to pay for it and it will take a lot of money, to make a little bit of hydrogen from renewables.
The private sector have already done the numbers IMO.

Would have thought that there is an excessive amount off gas of varying descriptions being generated in Canberra to power plenty of the power stations.
Pretty well an unlimited supply generated daily.

 

[Smurf1976]

Potential overseas buyers of Hydrogen do not care how the gas is made, it all comes down to cost.

The EU has some pretty strict requirements for anything to meet their "green" criteria.

 

[Smurf1976]

So, is anything in the government's hydrogen plan still a goer, or do they tear the whole thing up?

The project in SA will almost certainly proceed simply because there's too much at stake. Maintaining the viability of the steelworks is just too critical in a broader macro sense to the region.

Bearing in mind the SA project is effectively a hydrogen and oxygen supply for the steelworks with an added on power station for practical and economic reasons. It isn't really comparable to the others for that reason, it's directly tied to a specific practical use by an industry government really doesn't want to see fail.

I expect the Powerfuels project at Bell Bay, Tasmania, will also probably go ahead. I wouldn't say it's certain, but my personal view is it has a better chance than the others. It's not a given but the number crunching and assumptions do seem realistic and a lot of what's needed already exists.