How did your portfolio do last financial year?

[beachlife]

Don't forget that all the claims of 100% or 260.0% gains on here are just people behind a computer who don't have to prove their disclosures. They can say any random figure that comes into their head.

Or perhaps they are telling the truth and are as good as the traders here

https://www.worldcupadvisor.com/worldcupchampionships/default_nwcc3.aspx

 

[Klogg]

That's a great first year, Klogg.

Thanks! Well above my expectations to be honest. And I don't expect to replicate it this year.
That being said, capital gains of 140% from Breville boosted that ridiculously... (Although it was only 15% of my PF after that growth).

TGA, BYI and RCG account for the rest of it.


Oh and just to add - no leverage in this.

 

[minwa]

Had deposits and withdrawalls at different time periods so a little hard to find a final figure. This is what my broker came up with time weighted calculations:



Decent return but really need to work on lowering the draw downs before allocating more capital into trading on leverage.

 

[Porper]

Or perhaps they are telling the truth and are as good as the traders here

https://www.worldcupadvisor.com/worldcupchampionships/default_nwcc3.aspx

Yes, I am sure they are all good honest traders making a fortune.

Incidentally Prechter & Robert Miner won the trading champs and both use Elliott Wave Food for thought for the doubters.

 

[TheUnknown]

I don't get it......being new to the share game you hear some say it's almost impossible to make big bucks from shares trading short term once you hear that, then you got people saying they are making big money from shares.

After all that you go and check what the leading traders are doing around the world who manage funds etc they are returning 15%-25% per year...

Can someone please enlighten me?

Have been now following The Chartist trades for past 5 weeks even he doesn't make that sort of returns based on what some people are writing here and how they have left the corporate world.

I mean if you have 1 Million dollars in your account @ 3% return a month that is $30k per month, unless you have a big account you are hardly making money if i'm correct?

Once you hear all that you have other people telling you how they lost everything they had in the share market.


As pauline hanson would say.......please explain.

 

[tech/a]

I don't get it......being new to the share game you hear some say it's almost impossible to make big bucks from shares trading short term once you hear that, then you got people saying they are making big money from shares.

After all that you go and check what the leading traders are doing around the world who manage funds etc they are returning 15%-25% per year...

Can someone please enlighten me?

Have been now following The Chartist trades for past 5 weeks even he doesn't make that sort of returns based on what some people are writing here and how they have left the corporate world.

I mean if you have 1 Million dollars in your account @ 3% return a month that is $30k per month, unless you have a big account you are hardly making money if i'm correct?

Once you hear all that you have other people telling you how they lost everything they had in the share market.


As pauline hanson would say.......please explain.

You can get all sorts of reported returns from the one account.

Returns on total available capital
Returns on funds invested
Returns on funds at risk.

Each will give you vastly different %.
So you don't know what people are quoting
How much they are trading with.

I mean if you have 1 Million dollars in your account @ 3% return a month that is $30k per month, unless you have a big account you are hardly making money if i'm correct?

In general terms you certainly are correct.
Very few here would be making more than an average wage from share trading.

Like all places of business there are the CEO's making big bucks
Middle management making better than most.
Blue collar workers getting by.
Casuals--they come and go.

ASF is no different.

As for me.

If I quoted figures against available funds my returns would be small to those quoted
On funds invested Pretty good
On Funds at risk Bloody amazing.

But the truth is I trade for an extra passive income---to most it would be a pretty good one.

 

[beachlife]

I don't get it......being new to the share game you hear some say it's almost impossible to make big bucks from shares trading short term once you hear that, then you got people saying they are making big money from shares.

After all that you go and check what the leading traders are doing around the world who manage funds etc they are returning 15%-25% per year...

Can someone please enlighten me?

Have been now following The Chartist trades for past 5 weeks even he doesn't make that sort of returns based on what some people are writing here and how they have left the corporate world.

I mean if you have 1 Million dollars in your account @ 3% return a month that is $30k per month, unless you have a big account you are hardly making money if i'm correct?

Once you hear all that you have other people telling you how they lost everything they had in the share market.


As pauline hanson would say.......please explain.

The fund managers are limited with what they can do because of regulations and the size of the accounts they manage, so their returns are small. If XYZ falls they cant just dunp the lot, their position is too big.

Then you have private investors, who dont use derivatives and are happy to match or beat the fund managers.

Then you have short term private traders, who use cfd's, options, futures, forex and trade with smaller positions and higher frequency so its easier to get better % returns. If XYZ falls just hit sell and they are gone in a heart beat. They can also trade in both directions without restrictions.

So the good fund managers are making small % returns on big accounts over big time frame trades = big dollars.

The good traders are making big % returns on small accounts over small time frames, still can = big dollars.

If you have say a small account and can make $500 per day on forex trades, then thats around $125,000 pa and a massive % return on capital. But in dollar terms just as good as the fund with $1m that makes 12.5% pa.

Then you have the people that think profitable traders are liars, probably because they dont know how its done.

 

[FlyingFox]

The fund managers are limited with what they can do because of regulations and the size of the accounts they manage, so their returns are small. If XYZ falls they cant just dunp the lot, their position is too big.

Then you have private investors, who dont use derivatives and are happy to match or beat the fund managers.

Then you have short term private traders, who use cfd's, options, futures, forex and trade with smaller positions and higher frequency so its easier to get better % returns. If XYZ falls just hit sell and they are gone in a heart beat. They can also trade in both directions without restrictions.

So the good fund managers are making small % returns on big accounts over big time frame trades = big dollars.

The good traders are making big % returns on small accounts over small time frames, still can = big dollars.

If you have say a small account and can make $500 per day on forex trades, then thats around $125,000 pa and a massive % return on capital. But in dollar terms just as good as the fund with $1m that makes 12.5% pa.

Then you have the people that think profitable traders are liars, probably because they dont know how its done.

You have quoted some returns earlier in the thread and in particular with regards to futures trading. Many here are trading shares on the ASX. The risk profiles for shares trading without leverage and derivatives is quite different. The implicit leverage in derivatives is quite high. Better to compare capital at risk in those cases.

Yes you can make large returns but also loose a lot of your capital. It is important to make this distinction as you have elaborated on in your post.

 

[TheUnknown]

You can get all sorts of reported returns from the one account.

Returns on total available capital
Returns on funds invested
Returns on funds at risk.

Each will give you vastly different %.
So you don't know what people are quoting
How much they are trading with.



In general terms you certainly are correct.
Very few here would be making more than an average wage from share trading.

Like all places of business there are the CEO's making big bucks
Middle management making better than most.
Blue collar workers getting by.
Casuals--they come and go.

ASF is no different.

As for me.

If I quoted figures against available funds my returns would be small to those quoted
On funds invested Pretty good
On Funds at risk Bloody amazing.

But the truth is I trade for an extra passive income---to most it would be a pretty good one.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Like anything, you need money to make money.

Making an income out of it and living in Aus you would need a large account otherwise you would be risking a lot per trade and after that you got big draw downs.

Like a business you can't start a business with 20k and expect to be making 200k per year.

 

[beachlife]

You have quoted some returns earlier in the thread and in particular with regards to futures trading. Many here are trading shares on the ASX. The risk profiles for shares trading without leverage and derivatives is quite different. The implicit leverage in derivatives is quite high. Better to compare capital at risk in those cases.

Yes you can make large returns but also loose a lot of your capital. It is important to make this distinction as you have elaborated on in your post.

I assume most of the results people have posted are return on capital.

Leverage does not mean increased risk of capital. With correct position sizing and stops you can protect your capital no matter what you trade.

If I trade 1000 CBA shares and it falls $1 I lose $1000.
If I trade 1000 CBA CFD's and it falls $1 I lose $1000.

The $ risk is exactly the same.

The difference is
for the CBA share trade I need around $68,000
for the CBA CFD trade I only need $2040 for margin.

Even if you want to work on 2% risk, you only need a $50,000 account to take that trade. But with a $50k share account you cant take it. Maybe that's why the share traders dont do as well, not because of the risk, but because they cant afford the trade when they see it.

 

[skc]

As pauline hanson would say.......please explain.

It's easy to make big bucks from shares one time or another. It's hard to make big bucks from shares consistently over many years.

To put things in perspective, FY12 was one of the best ever for the Australian market. On the accumulation index (which included dividend), the return was 22.75%.

But look more closely, there were large divergences in the return of resources vs non-resources. The ASX 200 resource accumulation index XJRAI returned -7% , while the ASX 200 industrial accumulation index XJIAI returned 33%.

So the key to success last year was relatively straight forward. Be in the market, and not hold any resource stocks. You'd boost your return further by including a few well selected small / mid caps that have enjoyed fantastic PE expansion (and some enjoyed growth in the "E" as well) through FY13. It was a good year for stock pickers, but it was also a year where the tide lifted all boats in most things non-resource.

I am not trying to talk down those who's made good return last year... A good year should be celebrated. You were in the game, took the risks and were rewarded. Well done to you all.

But work through a few bad / flat years and be consistently good over the long time... that's where one should aim for and also where most struggles.

 

[Trembling Hand]

I assume most of the results people have posted are return on capital.

Leverage does not mean increased risk of capital. With correct position sizing and stops you can protect your capital no matter what you trade.

If I trade 1000 CBA shares and it falls $1 I lose $1000.
If I trade 1000 CBA CFD's and it falls $1 I lose $1000.

The $ risk is exactly the same.

The difference is
for the CBA share trade I need around $68,000
for the CBA CFD trade I only need $2040 for margin.

Even if you want to work on 2% risk, you only need a $50,000 account to take that trade. But with a $50k share account you cant take it. Maybe that's why the share traders dont do as well, not because of the risk, but because they cant afford the trade when they see it.

Big problem with that assumption is that of course ignores portfolio heat which will/has increase your risk.

 

[FlyingFox]

I assume most of the results people have posted are return on capital.

Leverage does not mean increased risk of capital. With correct position sizing and stops you can protect your capital no matter what you trade.

No but can mean increased risk in % of capital.

If I trade 1000 CBA shares and it falls $1 I lose $1000.
If I trade 1000 CBA CFD's and it falls $1 I lose $1000.

The $ risk is exactly the same.

The difference is
for the CBA share trade I need around $68,000
for the CBA CFD trade I only need $2040 for margin.

Even if you want to work on 2% risk, you only need a $50,000 account to take that trade. But with a $50k share account you cant take it. Maybe that's why the share traders dont do as well, not because of the risk, but because they cant afford the trade when they see it.

If you have $2040 and get leverage and loose $1000 you have a ~50% loss on capital. While someone with 68K will have a ~2% loss. Conversely, if it goes up by 2% your on 50% gain and the un-leveraged trader is up only 2%. Leverage is a double sided sword. Reminds me of the percentage thread lol.

However in both these cases you % return on capital at risk is the same.

Also see TH later comment re portfolio heat.

 

[qldfrog]

if anyone interested, out of my three trading accounts and not including cash rate when money is not in so my $ loss are not as bad:

1)
my safe account was indeed break even after dividends are included, as i have franking credit with that, probably around +1 to +2%
-> forensic
got hit by gold collapse and resources downfall + too early in banks where I managed to loose 10%, exit and saw them climb high speed till May
-> lesson learnt-> use put options for protection, lower number of trades to lessen brokerage


2) my casino like trading account based on gutfeel:
a disaster around 15% loss (hard to be exact as i have huge delta in cash invested) each time I though it could not go lower, it did....
-> lesson learnt
my gutfeel can not be trusted-> give up throwing money around
will close the account or at least switch it to a TA

3) TA based system under construction:
-3% or so after dividends, corrected an error in my formula in december, was unlucky to basically start from scratch (with a negative start ) in january

will persist as i get more confidence, behaved extremely well during the later retreat, will see if I can catch the next uptrend

overall , with different amounts allocated in each account, a loss of 4% after dividends, but excluding franking credit and cash rate of 4% or so when out of market (which was substancial in late 2012 and in the last 2 months).
So nothing to be scared of [nor happy with].
If i learn my lessons, will be money wisely spent....
All the best everyone for the new FY

And by the way no leverage used and controlled risk limited to less than 10% of total invested with (not foolproof but...stop loss and put options)

 

[cbc]

I don't get it......being new to the share game you hear some say it's almost impossible to make big bucks from shares trading short term once you hear that, then you got people saying they are making big money from shares.

After all that you go and check what the leading traders are doing around the world who manage funds etc they are returning 15%-25% per year...

Can someone please enlighten me?

Have been now following The Chartist trades for past 5 weeks even he doesn't make that sort of returns based on what some people are writing here and how they have left the corporate world.

I mean if you have 1 Million dollars in your account @ 3% return a month that is $30k per month, unless you have a big account you are hardly making money if i'm correct?

Once you hear all that you have other people telling you how they lost everything they had in the share market.


As pauline hanson would say.......please explain.

Pends what instrument u are trading, u won't see high returns on shares generally.

Trading derivatives u would hear some with big returns, others with complete loss.

Sadly qldfrog nothing can predict the future, not even gut feel

 

[beachlife]

No but can mean increased risk in % of capital.



If you have $2040 and get leverage and loose $1000 you have a ~50% loss on capital. While someone with 68K will have a ~2% loss. Conversely, if it goes up by 2% your on 50% gain and the un-leveraged trader is up only 2%. Leverage is a double sided sword. Reminds me of the percentage thread lol.

However in both these cases you % return on capital at risk is the same.

Also see TH later comment re portfolio heat.

Read my post again.

I didnt day the account was $2040, I said that was the margin, then I said if you want to risk 2% of capital for a $1000 risk you need $50,000 capital, and a $50,000 cfd account will cover the margin, a $50,000 share account wont allow the purhcase.

2% of capital is 2% of capital no matter what you trade.

 

[FlyingFox]

Read my post again.

I didnt day the account was $2040, I said that was the margin, then I said if you want to risk 2% of capital for a $1000 risk you need $50,000 capital, and a $50,000 cfd account will cover the margin, a $50,000 share account wont allow the purhcase.

2% of capital is 2% of capital no matter what you trade.

Not arguing with your point, in fact you are saying the same thing when you say share account will not allow the purchase. I suspect this will go back and forth so I will just say this:

When you are trading with derivatives it is easy to be nearer 100% risk for your portfolio due to portfolio heat as per TH's comment e.g your entire portfolio is made of options. When you are trading completely un-leveraged you will not get anywhere close to that. Therefore the returns on capitals are so vastly different but return on capital at risk is similar. See T/A comments on his returns as well ...

 

[beachlife]

Yes leverage allows you to take more risk, but it doesnt force you too. Money managment and position sizing is the difference between people that use it well and people that blow up - I have done both.

 

[Porper]

Then you have the people that think profitable traders are liars, probably because they dont know how its done.

Not so much liars although some on here obviously live in dream land.

The point is that people new to trading shouldn't be focussing on some of the comments and posts on here regarding massive profits. A very small percentage make a profit consistently. Most lose part or all of their capital. Just something that needs pointing out to those expecting to start trading and make 260.0% every year. Some do...most don't.

 

[sydboy007]

Not so much liars although some on here obviously live in dream land.

The point is that people new to trading shouldn't be focussing on some of the comments and posts on here regarding massive profits. A very small percentage make a profit consistently. Most lose part or all of their capital. Just something that needs pointing out to those expecting to start trading and make 260.0% every year. Some do...most don't.

I'll be happy to make a consistent 10% a year - starting to think it might be a tricky thing to do in the 2014 FY

Compounding works wonders over a decade or two.