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House prices to keep falling for years

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I was hoping there would be a violin smiley....to play a woeful tune for some of you...or maybe country music would be more your style....with all the wailing songs they sing...lose the wife, lost the dog...
 
Any sort of honesty and real estate spruiking don't go hand in hand, so it'd be interesting to see how many people he can sucker into signing up.
 
I too expect house prices to fall or alternatively remain flat for the coming few years. Why? Because the fundamentals are there. Higher unemployment, minimal to no wage increases and mortgage stress on those in over there heads who bought at the peak.

However, the only factor against this is the old supply and demand argument. Currently inner melbourne we are seeing greatly reduced supply. All time lows, thereby creating a demand higher than supply and maintaining (to an extent) the housing market. How long can this last? I am not sure. Maybe it will weather the storm of the recession. Maybe it will bust up in 6 months time?

In my parents generation (they are in their 60's) there were literally decades where the housing market hardly moved. They recalled a good 10 years where prices litterally stayed flat. The prophecy that houses always have to increase is in my opinion a falacy. Wise investment should reap reward, however, you need to be happy with what you live in and not expect profits everytime. It is a false economy as to the majority if your house has doubled so has the market.

Thanks

Gusto

ps i am in the market for property over the next 6 - 12 months..expecting further declines
 
Another article from the money morning.

The funniest part is that HIA, a natural permabull for obvious reasons, predicted that house prices will continue to rise when interest rate is PREDICTED TO RISE in the future and when the incentives are GONE.

Some kind of logic there, really.

I'm at a total lost at the kind of statement these vested interest stupid people can put out. Either they are totally disillusioned or they really believed it, that house prices will never fall regardless of how high the interest rate is, how high the price is, how high the unemployment rate is or there is a global debt deflation crisis.

Of course, I'm sure someone will start making claims that interest rate will remain a 50 years low FOREVER. So house prices will continue to rise.

You better not hope this would happen as if the RBA decides to hold interest rate at such a low level, it means they are expecting the economy will continue to deteriorate and will require constant STIMULUS through neoclassical style economics.

Of course, we all know what happened to US/UK house prices when interest rate has remained 0%. Or how long the "nil" growth lasted in Japan with 0% rate for over 10 years.

Another area of concern is, if First Home Buyer Grant was designed to SUPPORT the housing industry, as the lobby groups have claimed, then why it was needed in the first place if the housing market is as stable and not in a bubble stage as they proclaimed? Such irony....why not remove it if everything is "alright"?
 
The latest nail in the coffin....

 
What's this!!! Pent up demand has apparently run it's course now...


or more likely, trying to put a positive spin on a dismal house and land release...

It could also be that the politicians are now starting to soften up the masses for further price declines...
 
yup.. property is a poor place to be at the moment for investment.. as the bears stated it would be 12 months ago

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...eturns-hit-16-year-low-IPD-S8ARU?OpenDocument



Banks are going to be forced to reduce their lending to maintain AA ratings, and to obtain reasonable cost of finance from o/s... This is now, so this will be going forward. Credit rationing has taken a bit longer than expected in Australia, but we are only a few months into this factor so far..

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...too-far-pd20090520-S7T8D?OpenDocument&src=sph

Australia prides itself on the fact that we have four banks with AA credit ratings. Yet Citi analysts say we are in danger of losing those ratings because our banks, led by the Commonwealth, have over-expanded lending, particularly in housing...
 
A good article for the boffin’s amongst us.

If the banks get tougher, will prices start falling?

If you take a look at Robertson's graph below, you see that a $40,000 deposit can leverage itself into a $800,000 loan with a 95% LVR, a $400,000 loan with a 90% LVR but only $200,000 with an 80% LVR.

Quite a dramatic difference, don't you think?

 

This analysis makes a simple, and very incorrect assumption that loan serviceability is not taken into account at all!

Try going to a bank, with say a $40k deposit, and an income of say $50k, and see if they will lend you $800k! Fat chance......

So, garbage in = garbage out.....

Cheers,

Beej
 
Yes, but I think that graph is simply showing the maximum possible loan given a constant deposit amount against different LVR percentage.

It is an interesting graph as just by the banks lowering the LVR from 95% to 90% they effectively half the maximum amount someone can borrow given the same deposit and house, to get the same loan amount the applicant would need to double their deposit.

cheers
 

The graph simply demonstrates LVR ratio to a sample size deposite, no more no less.

If the banks reduced down the LVR to 85% min, then prices will be affected down. Easy credit has resulted in higher prices for the short term. How the decade of easy credit affects us in the next decade is unknown.

I am lead to believe that South African government has imposed a x3 primary income earners limit to borrowing in an attempt to stop property bubbles occurring and to bring prices back into line with affordability criteria. S.A has had a huge property boom over the last decade, unfortunately prices have come down due to this restriction on lending.

Cheers
 
Another way to look at it may be to go the How Much Can I Borrow? Calculator and wack in all the variables to find out how much you can borrow, then go back and leaving all the other variables constant just change the size of the deposit amount, say by half, you'll see the amount of money you can be lent half.

So, Property spruiker in = garbage out.....
 

Reasonable enough if you use $40k deposit. But again and again, you are completely ignoring the UNDERLYING MESSAGE. (and again, there is a rational reason why you do so because you don't like what you are hearing anyway)

So let's ignore the 95% LVR Ratio on the same 40k deposit and only focus on 90% to 80%. The difference is still, nonetheless, dramatic right? $400,000 to $200,000. If LVR was further reduced to 75%, then it's only $160k.

You cannot argue against the maths.

I'm sure you can find instances in history, both in Australia and in developed countries around the world, that such LVR for residential property was THE NORM for banks.

Read up on the history of credit bubble, the introduction of securitisation, the role of central bankers in "regulating" the bank industry to take on more leveraging (therefore, giving the banks' CEOs the motivation to genereate more short term profit) and you will understand why LVR was significantly increased over the past 2 decades.

The ability to sustain the property bubble will largely depend on the availability of credit. The recent trend has been the gradual decrease in LVR amoung the major banks and smaller credit unions.
 

In response to Temjin above and others who responded to my comment:

No, I cannot argue with the basic maths, but I can argue with the use of the maths to suggest a little tightening of LVRs will have that big an effect on the property market. Here's why:

I'll start with a few facts:

1) LVR restrictions are usually only an issue for FHBs, as others have much lower LVRs to the extent that loan serviceability is the ONLY issue for them.

2) FHBs make up only ~25% of the market right now, and that's above the long term trend of ~20%. So really this discussion only concerns 1/4 of the total market in terms of any impact, albeit an important segment with respect to it's potential flow through effects.

3) Average FHB loan is currently $280k (RBA stats). Average FHB home purchase price is historically about ~85% of the median house price, so let's say that's about $350k. Therefore, AVERAGE FHB deposit (including grants etc of course) must be around $70k. of course SOME buy with less, and some more, but that IS the average figure.

4) Therefore the average LVR for a FHB is around 80%

Given the above, as interesting as the maths might from a theoretical stand point, unless the banks tighten to the point where there maximum LVR is under 80% (highly unlikely IMO), then it's a moot point in terms of significant impact on the market, and it's serviceability assessment/criteria that is the major determining factor still right now. Even at 80% LVR, that would only cause 1/2 of current FHBs (or 1/8 of the total current market) to have to save a bigger deposit or see prices fall by the equivalent amount to normalise things - and the market has got along just fine in the past with FHB levels much lower than right now. So you do the rest of the maths from there!

Cheers,

Beej
 

Unfortunately, this is not a fact. LVR restrictions, in an addition to other credit tightening methods, have been placed ACROSS for ALL BORROWINGS for ANY type of assets regardless on the creditworthiness of the borrowers.

To suggest that the credit tightening has only applied to FHBs would mean the current crisis had very little impact on credit growth. Which, in contrary to your believes, have collapsed in recent times.




Like I said, the credit tightening applies NOT ONLY FOR residential properties, but for commercial properties and small businesses who have reported having a hard time in borrowin (including some high profile failures, both local and oversea)

The banks have already spoken (and with actions) that they are tightening their credits standard, period. They will NOT BE returning to pre-crisis level credit borrowing standard which have fuelled the pricing boom of ALL assets right across the entire planet.


Since your first "fact" has been disputed and decisively flawed, then this second "fact" is equally flawed. The credit tightening is widespread across all asset borrowings.


Again, you are making up statistic to back up your own opinion". Where is the fact that the average FHB deposit is around $70k?


http://www.rgemonitor.com/asia-monitor/256120/fhb_boost_is_australias_sub-prime_lite

Read through the Fujitsu Consulting report. The average FHB is relying upon the government grant for more than 50% of the deposit. That means the average DEPOSIT for FHBs is less than $42,000.

4) Therefore the average LVR for a FHB is around 80%

As aboave, the averave LVR for FHB is definitely not around 80%. It's FAR HIGHER than that. Using your average FHB loan of $270k ($280k on Fujitsu report), that means the average LVR for FHB is 85%+. And THAT INCLUDES the grant.

Imagine if the grant is removed. Of course, the industry with vested interest always say the residential property market is PERFECTLY STABLE and THERE IS NO REASON FOR PANIC that it will crash or drop in value at any time. But then they argue that the first home buyer grant is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to support the housing industry. Such irony...

So you do the rest of the maths from there!

Cheers,

Beej

I sure did. The maths show that the FHG is understating the degree of leverage the FHBs are in with their recent purchases. It also understate how leveraged the banks are with residential loans. Along with their tiered level 1 ratio of 8 (which is still high from global average), even a minor writedown in loan losses will more than enough to scare the **** out of the banks to increase assets and further tightening lending criteria.

This is exactly what's happening in the US/UK right now. You can be sure that it will happen here sooner or later.
 
Unfortunately, this is not a fact. LVR restrictions, in an addition to other credit tightening methods, have been placed ACROSS for ALL BORROWINGS for ANY type of assets regardless on the creditworthiness of the borrowers.

No you are misunderstanding what I have written. People buying their 2nd/3rd properties etc, whether upgrading or buying for investment, already typically have loads of equity from their first purchase (which can be used to fund the deposit for an investment purchase, or pay for a big chunk of the new house). So they are usually on LVRs of 50% or less, certainly less than 80%. So therefore their ability to obtain finance is unaffected by a policy change by their bank to require a 95%/90%/85% etc maximum LVR.

Get it?

So you built a straw man and then used that to try and dispute my other facts, which ARE fact. The $280k average FHB figure comes from RBA figures published last week and discussed at length here. The median house price comes from ABS and other stats. This government report here (http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2006-07/07rn07.htm) has figures that show that the average first home purchase is around 85% of the median house price figure (partly because FHBs often purchase units which as we know aren't included in median house price figures). So therefore the average FHB deposit IS about $70k, perhaps even slightly more.

So those ARE facts. My analysis stands - try again after understanding my first point properly.

EDIT: And PS; re your credit growth chart - how about posting the one that shows lending growth for residential housing only?? The banks have been rationing in the commercial sector while the residential housing finance sector has been GROWING for the past 6 months right? Do you dispute this? (See http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/5609.0).

Cheers,

Beej
 

I'm sorry, but I thought we were discussing the FHB's ability to finance their purchase with further credit tightening from their bank through LVR change. (and along with proof of genuine savings of course, which has become a renewed trend laterly on top of the government grant)

No one is disputing that on average, the established home owners who have significant equity in their house (largely thanks to the credit boom which fuel up house prices of course) will have the ability to extract that equity as a deposit for a second purchase. I'm sure anyone who has purchased a house from the 1990s will have enough asset to fund a deposit even if the LVR reached as low as 70%! Of course, whether they will extract their equity to fund a purchase NOW in order to continue to pop up the market is another thing.

The FHB surely do not have such equity and/or large enough savings to not be affected by the LVR. The joint JPMorgan and Fujitsu Consulting report did an interesting sentiment survey which show that 70% of the respondents said the first home owner grant was "vital" to their decision to purchase one.

Remove the grant, and you will remove that 70% from buying because they do not pass the bank's stricter criteria.


Please read my comments carefully. I had never disputed the $280k average loan figure from RBA, the Fujitsu report had a $270k figure, which is probably right because the report was done back in the late 2008 and the FHB market have become hotter and hotter since then.

I'm only disputing the average $70k deposit.


If the average purchase price for FHB is indeed 85% of median house price figure, which you say is $350k and the average deposit including FHG is $70k, then the average LVR is 80%.

I understand how you came to the $70 figure, but the report clearly disputes this when only 12.5% of the FHB respondents had a loan to valuation ratio of under 80%. In addition, 30% of the FHBs had LVR between 95% to 100% and another 27% had between 90-95%.

By using the US Federal Reserve definition of subprime, where regardless of the borrower's creditworthness, a loan security with a LVR of more than 90% is regarded as SUBPRIME!!! So over 57% of the FHB's loans are considered subprime.


Ahhh, no one is disputing that we have had a boost in residential housing in recent months largely thanks to the rapid reduction of interest rates and the boost in FBG.

But what does this tell you? What have caused this when like you have said, the banks are rationing investment loans (commercial properties and small businesses) as well as private loans?

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@...ummary&prodno=5609.0&issue=Mar 2009&num=&view=

If credit growth in the residential property has rapidly risen in the past 6 months, then what should happen to housing prices?



Check out the chart again, there has been a sharp drop in the early 2008 and then a sharp rise again from mid 08. If you compared the rate of growth from the bottom level, wouldn't the growth in house prices be as strong as what was seen back in 2004 to 2006?

Now what happened to house prices? A total collapse in the upper end market but a rise in the lower end (where most FHBs would be buying).

The fact is that the low interest rate policy and the government intervention with boosting the grant has caused a rush in FHB to buy houses where they could otherwise CANNOT AFFORD TO. (based on the survey that the grant was vital to their purchase)

Remove the grant and see what will happen. The lower end market is on a life support right now and is distorting the whole statistic picture.

Then when the interest rate inevitably rise again and unemployment rate is certainly expected to rise significantly, the FHBs will be in deep trouble.




Like again in past discussions, I do not expect you to agree with me at all. Remember what I said about the psychological bias and your emotional investment in your own house. There is really little benefit for me to continue to try to "convince" you because it serve no purpose to me.

So you can believe what you want.

We can all argue with our own source of information, but the true answer will only come in a few years time.
 
hello,

look out the date has been pushed out another 2 years Beej for the end of the world, this is fantastic

thankyou

associate professor robots
 
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