GTP - Great Southern Plantations

[goodie3shoes]

This pretty much nails the issue for us poor cow people.Makes me wonder why these journos have been so slow at picking this issue up.A bit more of this kind of journalism would have saved us.And ,who are the clowns who voted in favour anyway?
http://business.smh.com.au/business/great-southern-crash-fells-expert-opinions-20090522-bhj3.html

 

[The Shadow]

I spoke with Bendigo & Adelaide bank yesterday - they plainly refused to listen!! The guy just went on & on about how the loan was payable whatever the circumstances were. My loan started off with Great Southern Finance Ltd, I only received a letter from Bendigo & Adelaide Bank on 30/04/2009 informing about them taking over the loan. I'm sure that's the case with a lot of other people here on the forum.
I was looking at the ATO product ruling.. herez a copy paste link from http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?docid=PRR/PR200839/NAT/ATO/00001#P37
*************************************
Doesn't it clearly say in the last line that the loan is secured... [/B]
I'm trying to find a copy of my "Geat Southern Renewable fibre Project 2008" Prospectus... can't find it.. Can any1 here help me with that.. I'm sure there will be something in the prospectus about the finance being secured by the Grower's interest..

Bugsy, I can tell you quite categorically that the Finance material used by GS states "Security may be taken over the borrowers interests in the Project at GS Finance's discretion".

There is a bigger issue here as well. These banks are now trying to slug investors/borrowers with exessive breakcost!! This is criminal and in the advice i have recieved should not apply.

Infact when I invested, i was told that no breakcost would apply and I could payout at any time.

Check your loan agreement....there is nothing there about breakcosts or how much can be charged!!

 

[The Shadow]

More news....

I heard a rumor that a certain now retired MD of GS has recently acquired a large chunk of the GS loan book very cheaply. If true, it just shows you how doggy/corrupt the board was to allow such a transaction.

The same MD disposed of his L&M investments prior to project transform!!

I wonder if the Administrator will look at this transaction??

 

[wooduk]

I concur as to what Slim says,but I believe taking advantage of a scenario that would involve as a collective group and consolidating investors that want to enhance their investment that also included buying the land and consolidating the co-op on behalf each investor.

This means us managing it,auditing it and in the usual past averaging the returns just like GTP.

The land would have to be strategically selected and at a price that would suit all and sundry.
We collect on the coppings,we collect on the bio mass fuel ,we collect on the structural grade timber that Lignor wants
We keep it in Australian hands,we enjoy future land value increases,we support local communities.

We have a renewable source of income,and any thing that comes outof this is this----------

THAT FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL PUT AN END TO THE FOOD,FOREST,LIVESTOCK AND CROPPING AGRIFOREST SECTOR BEING TREATED LIKE A CHEAP PROSTITUTE THAT IS FIT TO ONLY PILLAGE AND RAPE .

Metaphorically speaking.

ATTENTION !!! GREAT SOUTHERN INVESTORS
IWC – AN INDEPENENT WOODLOT CO-OPEATIVE

TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY. LTD. INVITE WOODLOT OWNERS IN THE GREAT SOUTHERN PROJECTS TO JOIN IN A FARMING CO-OPERATIVE TO EXPLORE THE VARIOUS PROSPECTS OF THE PROTECTION AND MANAGEMENT OF THEIR WOODLOTS.
THIS IS INITATATED BY THE GROWERS AND INVESTORS IN THE TREES TO JOIN AND FORM THEIR INTERESTS AS A COLLECTIVE FOR THE ON-GOING MANAGEMENT OF THEIR WOODLOTS.
EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST SHOULD BE DIRECTED AS FOLLOWS:-
TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY LTD PHONE 03 98796555
email: Townshend@immm.com.au
email: bzm2003@bigpond.com AFSL 223947
Townshend Prudential P/L

PH: 61 03 98796555 FAX: 61 03 98794466 Townshend Prudential Pty Ltd
Townshend Prudential- Financial Planners ‘The Bottom Line is “YOU’.

 

[KJL]

This pretty much nails the issue for us poor cow people.Makes me wonder why these journos have been so slow at picking this issue up.A bit more of this kind of journalism would have saved us.And ,who are the clowns who voted in favour anyway?
http://business.smh.com.au/business/great-southern-crash-fells-expert-opinions-20090522-bhj3.html

Yep, Michael Pascoe is great at hindsight - there's no-one better at it than he. Have a look at his article (a link is in the side bar to your link called "Australia's greatest scam comes crashing down") last week in the SMH (I think Tuesday) saying in relation to the MIS collapses that it's hard to know who to have the most scorn for, the managers the bankers or (quote) "the mugs suckered into buying products", and also that "there will be investors feeling pain here wanting to blame everyone but themselves".

Yep, we investors were just naive mugs, and Michael was the expert who could have saved us all if only we'd not been so stoopid. If only we'd done our due diligence, or the products were AAA rated, or backed by expert reports, or offered by a well-backed ASX listed company, or recommended by god knows how many advisers who'd done their own due diligence. What's that you say, they were?

Oh right. Well if anyone's got a bottle or two of hindsight instead then I'm up for buying one.

Or we can just ask Michael what he's investing in next year.

Either would do.

Kev

 

[moreld]

Entertaining post KLJ, it bought a smile to my dial.

One key rule in investing is: Structured products are structured to take money away from you and give it to other people. There is almost no if or buts about that.

Say it twenty time with me. Structured products suck. They are designed to make others rich. Do not invest in them.

On to something useful. I received an excellent reply from the administrators about voting at the creditors meeting.
"In terms of voting at meetings of the creditors of Great Southern Limited, the Corporations Act requires that a particular resolution must be passed in terms of both number of votes and the dollar value of votes. This serves to ensure that the major banks do not have all the power. Where the vote in terms of number conflicts with the vote in dollar terms then the Administrator has the casting vote and is required to vote in the manner which he believes is in the best interests of all creditors."

While I'd would prefer a USA style system, that seems fair enough to me. Any fellow mug TREES holders like to talk about what actions are best for us?

1. Do not allow the banks to change administrator would seem like top priority. Though accepting GTP one is also not appealing. Hey maybe we can appoint our own and let even more people suck GTP dry.

The above reply probably cost creditors $100

 

[YELNATS]

Yep, Michael Pascoe is great at hindsight - there's no-one better at it than he. Have a look at his article (a link is in the side bar to your link called "Australia's greatest scam comes crashing down") last week in the SMH (I think Tuesday) saying in relation to the MIS collapses that it's hard to know who to have the most scorn for, the managers the bankers or (quote) "the mugs suckered into buying products", and also that "there will be investors feeling pain here wanting to blame everyone but themselves".

Yep, we investors were just naive mugs, and Michael was the expert who could have saved us all if only we'd not been so stoopid. If only we'd done our due diligence, or the products were AAA rated, or backed by expert reports, or offered by a well-backed ASX listed company, or recommended by god knows how many advisers who'd done their own due diligence. What's that you say, they were?

Oh right. Well if anyone's got a bottle or two of hindsight instead then I'm up for buying one.

Or we can just ask Michael what he's investing in next year.

Either would do.

Kev

Spot on post. Full of vitriol and accuracy, Easy for journalists to be so fancy-dan clever, after the fact.

 

[MugPunter]

Can anyone see how shares in GTP may be (at some future point) worth something? I was dang-fool enough to actually buy GTP shares (can't even blame the cattle rort). Also an investor...

 

[wooduk]

ATTENTION !!! GREAT SOUTHERN INVESTORS
IWC – AN INDEPENENT WOODLOT CO-OPEATIVE

TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY. LTD. INVITE WOODLOT OWNERS IN THE GREAT SOUTHERN PROJECTS TO JOIN IN A FARMING CO-OPERATIVE TO EXPLORE THE VARIOUS PROSPECTS OF THE PROTECTION AND MANAGEMENT OF THEIR WOODLOTS.
THIS IS INITATATED BY THE GROWERS AND INVESTORS IN THE TREES TO JOIN AND FORM THEIR INTERESTS AS A COLLECTIVE FOR THE ON-GOING MANAGEMENT OF THEIR WOODLOTS.
EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST SHOULD BE DIRECTED AS FOLLOWS:-
TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY LTD PHONE 03 98796555
email: Townshend@immm.com.au
email: bzm2003@bigpond.com AFSL 223947
Townshend Prudential P/L

PH: 61 03 98796555 FAX: 61 03 98794466 Townshend Prudential Pty Ltd
Townshend Prudential- Financial Planners ‘The Bottom Line is “YOU’.

More news....

I heard a rumor that a certain now retired MD of GS has recently acquired a large chunk of the GS loan book very cheaply. If true, it just shows you how doggy/corrupt the board was to allow such a transaction.

The same MD disposed of his L&M investments prior to project transform!!

I wonder if the Administrator will look at this transaction??

Pucks,

Thats a good question..... as a general rule, i would advise paying off loans on assets that you intend to keep.

if you dont want the trees then i suppose you could fail to pay the loans and they will probably take them off you. unfortunately they can sue you for the money and in the worst case initiate bankrupcy proceedings against you.

you definitely do not want this. but if you can come to agreement with the bank and administrators then go with somehtign you are both happy with.

int he end it comes down to whether you think you will get any money form the trees in the end.

personally i think the chances of gettign more money from the MIS schemes then you paid, is about 70% in your favour.

im really having troubles thinking of ways i could take these assets if i was GTP, administrator, bank or some middle man.

after all, i have spent my life trying to get somehting for nothing and taking other peoples assets and i can tell you its nto that easy takign somehting thats nto yours and getting away with it.

equally though... would i continue to pay off an asset for the next 2 years that has only 70% of breaking even..... hmmmmm tough one.

just remember .... you alone are the only perosn that can relinquish your ownership over YOUR assets. just be warned.... everyone .... absolutely everyone will try to take them from you.... and will give you contless resons why you are better off wouthout your assets.

btu all those people who devalue your assets, will at the same time want those assets for themselves. so ask yourself why!

the onyl way i can see these assets being taken from MIS investors is through inflated management fees, inflated harvesting costs, low market prices.

all of these obstacles can be addressed and rectified. there is no reaosn why MIS investors should suffer the fate of GTP shareholders.

I could run a show like this. the way GTP structured all this, makes it complicated but not impossible to take over as growers.

the first thing we would have to do is get a couple of thousand investors onside. then we would have to break up into groups chonologically, as our common interests arise out of the year we bought into the scheme.

we establish a co-operative, company, not for profit organisation or even some sort of a charity (no tax) that looks after our interests and seeks to buy land with plantings from a particular year. then we negotiate the processing, sale and transport of the wood.

pretty much do what GTP has done, except we do it without trying to make a profit.... i dont think its too difficult.

btu we'll need a thousand people on side or some really really rich perosn with money to burn. thats the only thing holdign us back. our ability to organise and raise funds..... actually.... i think raising funds will be less fo a problem then organising everyone.

i was just reading.. there were 40,000 poeple involved in MIS... half of them took shares and a significant amount had an investment that can be considerd insignificant.... that could leave about 20,000 people to work with...

out of those we need 1000 to make this work... i could get together 20. and egt moeny out of 10 of them.... as you can see it s long road to doing it ourselves.

anyone who wants can send me a message and ill give them my phone number.

ill respond to everyone except for "investor1" he can send me hsi stock reccommendations if he wants

I spoke with Bendigo & Adelaide bank yesterday - they plainly refused to listen!! The guy just went on & on about how the loan was payable whatever the circumstances were. My loan started off with Great Southern Finance Ltd, I only received a letter from Bendigo & Adelaide Bank on 30/04/2009 informing about them taking over the loan. I'm sure that's the case with a lot of other people here on the forum.
I was looking at the ATO product ruling.. herez a copy paste link from http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?docid=PRR/PR200839/NAT/ATO/00001#P37
*************************************
Option B - Principal and Interest loans

92. The principal and interest loans offered by Great Southern Finance Pty Ltd and the Preferred Financier include the following features:

·
principal and interest loans with terms of 2, 5, 7 or 10 years;

·
the borrowing includes the GST component of the fee for Establishment Services;

·
equal monthly principal and interest repayments over the term of the loan, commencing on, or about, 31 July 2008;

·
interest rates will be fixed for the term of the loan;

·
a Loan Establishment Fee of 0.5% of the amount borrowed may be charged; and

·
the security for the loan is taken over the Grower's interest under the LMA.
*********************************************************

Doesn't it clearly say in the last line that the loan is secured...
I'm trying to find a copy of my "Geat Southern Renewable fibre Project 2008" Prospectus... can't find it.. Can any1 here help me with that.. I'm sure there will be something in the prospectus about the finance being secured by the Grower's interest..

1./Slim,tried to get in contact,please retry me again --please note I have got my accountant to start an independent growers interest group and the intent is to go to this meeting in Melbourne to inform the administrator that we will instigate a group of growers and investors and inform that we are creditors,just like ANZ did,

But first we need people to register and my accountant has gone as far placing an advertisement on the back page of the FIN review 26/05/09.

I am personally concerned as that not do anything is a disaster,and these lawyers and big institutions will get away with it. Athought that comes to me that the gas lighting in the media and the officianado crap from the administrator appointed by the directors of GTP,is all there to do delay the individual investors rights

REMEMBER that possesion is 9/10's of the law

All the quotes above and other contributors are my motivation even the negatives,

I say as a collective as a starting point ,if any legal or another organisation wants to talk or as a formidable co-op block it is my belief we are in a better position

For the record Iam an investor in 2003,2004,2005 tree plantations
I am also for the completion of tree maturity and in the co-op supporting running and enhancing this co-op

 

[drsmith]

Can anyone see how shares in GTP may be (at some future point) worth something? I was dang-fool enough to actually buy GTP shares (can't even blame the cattle rort). Also an investor...

Not me. This had the smell of dead stock walking from the time the directors tried to get their paws in investor's assets (Project Transform) to keep the company afloat. Timbercorp's collapse though may well have hastened the end for Great Southern.

Even Elders (formally Futuris) is now in the unfortunate position of having to go begging to it's bankers for a short term extension of a significant slab of it's maturing debt facilities.

 

[drsmith]

With GTP now in administration a couple of questions come to mind which may be of significant to woodlot holders.

1) Where GTP has leased the land, what happens if GTP defaults on the lease playments before the trees are harvested ?
Specifically, does ownership of the trees (in part or in full) transfer to the land owner upon default of lease payments by GTP ?

Wth 1) above I'm assuming that GTP is liable for the ongoing lease payments and not the individual MIS investors.

2) Where GTP owns the land but is required to sell to repay it's debts (either under administration or liquidation), what are MIS woodlot holders rights after the land is sold ?

Of specific interest here is whether the new land owner would gain any rights over the trees prior to scheduled harvest. If so then the MIS woodlot holders rerurns would be adversely affected. If not then the price GTP would get for the land would be adversely affected as the new land owner would not be able to earn an income off the land until the trees are harvested.

Are the above matters covered in the MIS PDS's and furthermore, can individual MIS woodlot holders determine whether their woodlots are on land leased by GTP or owned by GTP ?

 

[wooduk]

With GTP now in administration a couple of questions come to mind which may be of significant to woodlot holders.

1) Where GTP has leased the land, what happens if GTP defaults on the lease playments before the trees are harvested ?
Specifically, does ownership of the trees (in part or in full) transfer to the land owner upon default of lease payments by GTP ?

Wth 1) above I'm assuming that GTP is liable for the ongoing lease payments and not the individual MIS investors.

2) Where GTP owns the land but is required to sell to repay it's debts (either under administration or liquidation), what are MIS woodlot holders rights after the land is sold ?

Of specific interest here is whether the new land owner would gain any rights over the trees prior to scheduled harvest. If so then the MIS woodlot holders rerurns would be adversely affected. If not then the price GTP would get for the land would be adversely affected as the new land owner would not be able to earn an income off the land until the trees are harvested.

Are the above matters covered in the MIS PDS's and furthermore, can individual MIS woodlot holders determine whether their woodlots are on land leased by GTP or owned by GTP ?

And in quoting Dr Smith this ninny as Dr Smith from L.I.Space would say!

So investors why are not we collectively putting up an offer,proposal or at the very least a notification to the receiver or's and collectively take charge of our investments.
Remember,we joined in this MIS investment for the long haul,if Project Transform had not happened we would have kept on paying and like some of the new investors of recent times 07/08 and the trees 1 and trees2-3 would have blithely carried on and possibly more would have bought trees in the MIS schemes.

I hear detratractors saying that it would have been found out down the Rhode,but when? and what would the scenario have been then?

We are opportunists and good corporate citizens,that can and know that reading on this forum and others,that generally agreeing that this is a good investment.

We have and are doing the hard yards and damned if I want some shiny pants telling me that you out of the equation and you will cop what I give you which we know what it will be.

Ponder this thought,don't you reckon former founder and CEO who stepped down before Project Transform would not be eyeing off the best in WA,which is the homeland of GTP,?Iknow I would?,you'd be an idiot if you didn't.

So how would it be done?

Out of the tree huggers what numbers do we have out of the 40,000 investors.?

Of that what are made up of advisers that are in the same boat?

What about accountants?
Lawyers?
Doctors ?

Or the ordinary punters like me?

The point here is that it doesn't matter what or who you are your money and investment is the same as anybodys except for the quantity you bought---remember that you paid for them .

In a nutshell an MIS co-operative with every body and with one voice form a block or an alliance to get the banks grubby fingers off the investments and even propose to buy the land at a substantial discount,what and how much needs to be looked at and consolidate the mish mash of investments from a logistical point and also on the annualised investment years

Too hard?,not really especially when you take a collective loan from the biggest owed entity that wants cash back and wants to lend it again

Banks want their cash,and we want the investment with a decent return and the land at a price that can pip other big companies,we want a tax effective scheme again to continue and we want to enhance our price at the mills that is if we the collective do not own it by then.

Dream on wooduk?--NO,that is the potential my co-op members we have,from 1998 onwards,onwards and onwards

 

[The Shadow]

People,

I dont want to rain on your parade..after all i am a significant investor across a number of the GS MIS Projects.

However a number of you need to understand that you cannot just form a co-operative and ask people to contribute further funds. There are rules for this. (despite GS managment abusing them). A formal PDS would need to be put together and lodged & approved by ASIC. It needs to spell out the contributions etc.

This process would take atleast 3 months to put together at costs of around approx $300K-$400K. Who will fund that?

Besides I dont think that the Reciever will wait that long and dispose of the assets.

In my view a stage approach is needed.

I beleive that the fight should now be brought to GS/the Administrator & the Reciever by a Hard Ass Law Firm acting for all growers in a Class Action. This will by the significant time to then form a Growers Action Group that can explore such issues as:
* Appointment of a New R/E
* What projects are still viable?
* SHould land be purchased from the Reciever and what is the cost?

Please note that these are all not that easy to do and they would cost time and money.

From my part, let me reassure you that the Admin & Reciever are working in the Lenders best interests not ours and I for one will begin by pursuing legal action.

 

[Ripped Off]

I am all for a collective, co-op call it what you like, to be formed so we the investor and owner of woodlots can continue.
Anyone want my proxy for the upcoming meeting??


Cheers
Paul

 

[wooduk]

People,

I dont want to rain on your parade..after all i am a significant investor across a number of the GS MIS Projects.

However a number of you need to understand that you cannot just form a co-operative and ask people to contribute further funds. There are rules for this. (despite GS managment abusing them). A formal PDS would need to be put together and lodged & approved by ASIC. It needs to spell out the contributions etc.

This process would take atleast 3 months to put together at costs of around approx $300K-$400K. Who will fund that?

Besides I dont think that the Reciever will wait that long and dispose of the assets.

In my view a stage approach is needed.

I beleive that the fight should now be brought to GS/the Administrator & the Reciever by a Hard Ass Law Firm acting for all growers in a Class Action. This will by the significant time to then form a Growers Action Group that can explore such issues as:
* Appointment of a New R/E
* What projects are still viable?
* SHould land be purchased from the Reciever and what is the cost?

Please note that these are all not that easy to do and they would cost time and money.

From my part, let me reassure you that the Admin & Reciever are working in the Lenders best interests not ours and I for one will begin by pursuing legal action.

Duly noted Shadow and is taken on board,but if it good enough for GTP and GSM to do it right under the corporate watch dogs nose then what is good enough for goose is good enough for the wooduk

see you at the colliseum on the 27th

 

[moreld]

List of accountants and advisors who recommended MIS

Hi All
I thought it would be good to out all the accountants and advisors who recommended MIS schemes to their clients.
I posted about this and started the list here:
http://www.fusioninvesting.com/2009/05/was-bernie-madoff-a-great-southern-advisor/

Come on, out your accountant or advisor now. I believe it is more appropriate to name firms rather than individuals.

Secondly I wish to ensure TREES debt holders are represented on the Committee of Creditors. This will be voted on at Wednesday's meeting. Anyone who wishes to talk about this can contact me via the above link, or from here if that is possible.

 

[KJL]

I beleive that the fight should now be brought to GS/the Administrator & the Reciever by a Hard Ass Law Firm acting for all growers in a Class Action. This will by the significant time to then form a Growers Action Group that can explore such issues as:
* Appointment of a New R/E
* What projects are still viable?
* SHould land be purchased from the Reciever and what is the cost?

Please note that these are all not that easy to do and they would cost time and money.

From my part, let me reassure you that the Admin & Reciever are working in the Lenders best interests not ours and I for one will begin by pursuing legal action.

Shadow

All valid points in my view - thinking investors can just take over these things is (without wishing to offend anyone) pie in the sky.

Last Thursday the clients of my financial adviser went to a presentation by a Sydney litigation firm called Slater & Gordon, S&G are now looking at Great Southern and considering what grounds for a case we as investors have.

If anyone is interested you can register your interest with S&G on their website - they are looking at a potential class action. Rest assured that registering in itself does not commit you to anything, or paying any legal fees etc. But it does put you on an email distribution list so that the investors can have someone look at things from our point of view - as you say the admin and receivers will be seeking (and have to) protect the interest of their own clients. If there is any potential class action then you can decide whether you want to be a part at a later stage.

In particular, S&G were looking at the merits of a case, then potentially seeking assistance from a litigation funder - ie someone who pays for or funds the litigation in return for a slice of any recoveries.

If anyone's interested the S&G site to register on is: http://www.slatergordon.com.au/contactus.aspx

They also have a Helpline set up - 1800 555 777

Probably worth disclosing that I have no interest other than being into these MIS for $600k+ lent to me by GS. I notice they're still asking me for my loan payments, in fact they sold the loans to Bendigo on April 30, so I'm now royally shafted with a loan bill for the next decade and nothing to fund it - so this may well put me under if not sorted

Also worth confessing that I mainly lurk and read on investment sites without usually posting, but this latest turn of events has got me having to do something!

Kev

 

[Belrose]

Good work Wooduk,

I agree with you.

I would definitely be interested in buying up some of GTP's land although we don't own very many woodlots. (Large shareholding though, sadly).

 

[jiml]

Who do you go after? I was involved in Sons of Gwalia and fortunately the directors had assets and malfeasance was self evident. With GS the banks, as secured creditors believe they have first (and second, and third) bite of the cherry otherwise they would not have called in the receivers immediately after the company went into voluntary admin. Is there a case against the directors? Clearly GS as an entity has no assets other than securitised against loans it may be a case where unit holders stand in relation to woodlots etc. One thing I do know, shareholders have done there dough.

 

[drsmith]

And in quoting Dr Smith this ninny as Dr Smith from L.I.Space would say!

So investors why are not we collectively putting up an offer,proposal or at the very least a notification to the receiver or's and collectively take charge of our investments.
Remember,we joined in this MIS investment for the long haul,if Project Transform had not happened we would have kept on paying and like some of the new investors of recent times 07/08 and the trees 1 and trees2-3 would have blithely carried on and possibly more would have bought trees in the MIS schemes.

I hear detratractors saying that it would have been found out down the Rhode,but when? and what would the scenario have been then?

We are opportunists and good corporate citizens,that can and know that reading on this forum and others,that generally agreeing that this is a good investment.

We have and are doing the hard yards and damned if I want some shiny pants telling me that you out of the equation and you will cop what I give you which we know what it will be.

Ponder this thought,don't you reckon former founder and CEO who stepped down before Project Transform would not be eyeing off the best in WA,which is the homeland of GTP,?Iknow I would?,you'd be an idiot if you didn't.

So how would it be done?

Out of the tree huggers what numbers do we have out of the 40,000 investors.?

Of that what are made up of advisers that are in the same boat?

What about accountants?
Lawyers?
Doctors ?

Or the ordinary punters like me?

The point here is that it doesn't matter what or who you are your money and investment is the same as anybodys except for the quantity you bought---remember that you paid for them .

In a nutshell an MIS co-operative with every body and with one voice form a block or an alliance to get the banks grubby fingers off the investments and even propose to buy the land at a substantial discount,what and how much needs to be looked at and consolidate the mish mash of investments from a logistical point and also on the annualised investment years

Too hard?,not really especially when you take a collective loan from the biggest owed entity that wants cash back and wants to lend it again

Banks want their cash,and we want the investment with a decent return and the land at a price that can pip other big companies,we want a tax effective scheme again to continue and we want to enhance our price at the mills that is if we the collective do not own it by then.

Dream on wooduk?--NO,that is the potential my co-op members we have,from 1998 onwards,onwards and onwards

I fail to see how the above relates to the questions I raised but the following comment from earlier in this thread is of relevance.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385731&postcount=1432

and specifically within that post

Regardless of who managers the schemes these schemes have a legally binding lease agreement over the land. If the bank takes possession of the land and then sells this land to another party that party is legally obliged to honour the lease agreement so the ownership of the land is irrelevant. In fact Great Southern is currently selling such land to help keep the creditors at bay. This is a sign of their desperation. To sell land that is encumbered by lease you have to offer it at a huge discount as the purchaser is unable to do anything with it while the lease remains intact.

If the above is correct then why would MIS investors need to buy the land to protect their investment ?