GTP - Great Southern Plantations

[cathadfab]

In reference to whether I will repay the loan, I have to be honest and say, I don't know what my options are. It appears if I don't repay the loan I lose my shares. Even though the shares aren't worth as much as the loan, who knows they MAY increase in value. When I spoke with Dennis & Co they did indicate too that there may be a case in the future regarding the financing aspect of these projects.

It seems I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

 

[Forenth]

Am I allowed to say 'Bastards' on here?[/QUOTE]

Cathadfab,
Send that same assessment to ASIC (again if you have already), and tell them its all their fault! A customer of an investment company has had their investment seized against their will and given in return shares that at the time were grossly overvalued for the purpose and result in you receiving a net loss. Now you're actually paying around $600 for GSL to take your entire investment!

ASIC are hopeless, spineless, useless. Why are they paid at all? I bet they get good money, I want on the job retirement there. Does anyone know who to complain to about ASIC? Who's the federal minister for this rubbish? Get your federal MP to ask him in question time. No one will do anything until television networks do a story about it. Write to current affairs shows, as bad as they are they might be willing to get dirty on your behalf. If it gets to air then ASIC may be shamed into something.


Fatcat,

Make an offer to your advisor to sell your shares for $2.50 if he thinks they're so good and he can make an easy 50c each. Tell him you agree and cash is fine. We'll see how good he thinks they are then.

Where is Investor1 telling us what a good deal cattle investors got?

 

[pist'n broke]

Hello,
Only just found this group, very interesting, very sad too.
I have retired last year and, until now, I left my financial affairs pretty much to my licensed adviser. Trust me, just sign here, we'll do the rest – silly me.
My wife and I have, as advised, invested (too) heavily in GS woodlots. About 80 lots spread over 2000 to 2008 projects. Recommended as an extremely safe investment, not linked to on the share market, perfect for diversification and a nice retirement income. Lots of feel good factor, good for the environment etc. (Lots of raw bovine manure thrown in for free it turns out.)
We were not in the top tax bracket, this was intended as a genuine investment.

Anyhow, all that now looks to be worth next to half a dead duck and we just hope there will be no further cash to pay, because we can't.
Together with the melt down in our super accounts, GSL guarantees us a pretty frugal retirement.
Thanks a million, guys!

Btw, the same adviser refused to give any guidance on what to do re 'Project Transform'. May be better so! Forced me to do my own digging through the (unreadable) memoranda.
My conclusions:
GSL is trying to rip off the investors in a breathtakingly arrogant way. They must be desperate or criminals or both.
KPMG and EY are bought or gutless incompetents or both.
Change adviser, do my own research, they are all in it for the money.

We voted NO on all points.
Still find it hard to believe they got so many yes votes though. Maybe there is reason to think the woodlots will have negative value by the time of harvest. Not impossible, as GSL surely looks ready to go t1ts up. Nobody might want the timber and the growers might have to pay to have it removed, worst case scenario.

Today's quote from: www.great-southern.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=341
“Since listing on the Australian Stock Exchange in July 1999, Great Southern has grown from strength to strength. The company is distinguished by its strong financial position, with*net assets exceeding $750 million.
The company is characterised by the support of institutional investors, with several leading Australian and global financial institutions included among our major shareholders.”

Does the 'L' in GSL stand for Liars? Incredible, this continued arrogance by a mob of ruthlessly selfish directors.
Maybe I should by a few shares just to be able to cause a bit if a stink, not much to loose there.

Enough ranting for today.

 

[wooduk]

Hello,
Only just found this group, very interesting, very sad too.
I have retired last year and, until now, I left my financial affairs pretty much to my licensed adviser. Trust me, just sign here, we'll do the rest – silly me.
My wife and I have, as advised, invested (too) heavily in GS woodlots. About 80 lots spread over 2000 to 2008 projects. Recommended as an extremely safe investment, not linked to on the share market, perfect for diversification and a nice retirement income. Lots of feel good factor, good for the environment etc. (Lots of raw bovine manure thrown in for free it turns out.)
We were not in the top tax bracket, this was intended as a genuine investment.

Welcome to the one of many in exactly the same ponzi deal,please go back and read the other contributors and tell us what your next move would be

 

[drsmith]

In reference to whether I will repay the loan, I have to be honest and say, I don't know what my options are. It appears if I don't repay the loan I lose my shares. Even though the shares aren't worth as much as the loan, who knows they MAY increase in value. When I spoke with Dennis & Co they did indicate too that there may be a case in the future regarding the financing aspect of these projects.

It seems I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

Unless you are confident that you will be able to sell the shares for more than the loan, check the fine print to see if there is any legal way to avoid repaying the loan.

 

[pist'n broke]

Thanks Wooduk

Well, being financially dyslexic, we do not know what to do.
Change adviser, definitely.
Throw good money after bad? Dennis & Co.?
Sit and hope for the best?
What's a ponzi deal, sounds italian?
I have read most posts for the last 5 months, certainly educational.

Anyhow, not all is bad.
One of our lots turned into CO2 in the Kangaroo Island fires, insurance paid. At least not all is lost.
A bit of humor? Lifted from: www.great-southern.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=340

“Nearly 40,000 people have discovered the benefits of investing with Great Southern.”:bonk:


These guys come from a different universe, methinks.

Glad to see they look after their directors, see agenda for the meeting of 19 February 2009 at
www.great-southern.com.au/Key_Dates.aspx

 

[wooduk]

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Ponzi schemes

One of the simplest, yet most effective scams perpetrated on unsuspecting investors for many years have been Ponzi schemes.

In these schemes the promoter promises investors a very high return on their investment and says it is secure.

Part of the money deposited by early investors is then used to pay their first dividend cheques or interest. The victims are more than happy to get high dividends. These schemes only require a few people in their early stages to be successful. The swindler continues paying them dividends for a couple of months until they are more comfortable with their investments, and decide to invest more.

They then begin to urge their friends and relatives to invest as well. Soon, there is a steady flow of funds into the scheme, and the number of investors grows.

If the swindler is disciplined about how much money is left in the account to pay "dividends", the scam can go on for many years. Theoretically, if the scheme continues to draw in new investors, it could go on indefinitely. In practice such schemes usually fall over because the promoter starts to spend the money too quickly, or the pool of investors starts to dry up.



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This is a definition by guess who!?----ASIC



As PB says 40,000 investors,wooduk says you are on your own,------------

unless! iinvestors get with Dennis&Co.

 

[wooduk]

Am I allowed to say 'Bastards' on here?

Cathadfab,
Send that same assessment to ASIC (again if you have already), and tell them its all their fault! A customer of an investment company has had their investment seized against their will and given in return shares that at the time were grossly overvalued for the purpose and result in you receiving a net loss. Now you're actually paying around $600 for GSL to take your entire investment!

ASIC are hopeless, spineless, useless. Why are they paid at all? I bet they get good money, I want on the job retirement there. Does anyone know who to complain to about ASIC? Who's the federal minister for this rubbish? Get your federal MP to ask him in question time. No one will do anything until television networks do a story about it. Write to current affairs shows, as bad as they are they might be willing to get dirty on your behalf. If it gets to air then ASIC may be shamed into something.


Fatcat,

Make an offer to your advisor to sell your shares for $2.50 if he thinks they're so good and he can make an easy 50c each. Tell him you agree and cash is fine. We'll see how good he thinks they are then.

Where is Investor1 telling us what a good deal cattle investors got?[/QUOTE]

Investor 1 was nothing more what you would call a stock puppet,my personal belief it was a clown from sentry

 

[wooduk]

Hi Investor,

I personally dont think you are a MIS investor. The big winners out of this are the shareholders and employees / directors so i'm pretty sure your one or the other. However if you are a MIS investor:

Option A above is not possible. Great Southern will go under if it is not bailed out (if you dont believe me read the notes in the annual report under "going concern"). The banks will not touch them. No investor would invest in any capital raising. Surely you understand this.

Therefore your choice is between B and C.

BUT I would also aay that i personally think that this discussion is moot. It wont get up. GTP will go to the wall and someone will pick over the assets.
Shareholders and Employees will be the losers - and so they should be as this is capitalism and the weak fail. MIS investors will be ok - ok meaning that they will get their timber harvested (if only by the buyer of the land through a liquidation sale that needs to harvest the trees to get the land back to commerical use) but now realise how bad a decision it was to invest in MIS through GTP in the first place.

it warms the heart when a moron like I-V1 gets shot down with his bull****,
GOM,and I apologise to other astute commentators that have been on this forumhave been great inspiration besides educational-------- juuust luv it!

 

[drsmith]

The unfortunate reality is that this will be a very ugly corporate corpse when it eventually turns it's toes up.

 

[Jackob]

Pist'n broke,

Sad to read your story.

What's a ponzi deal, sounds italian?

GTP's MIS schemes, I think, are a sort of “Ponzi Scheme” in a sense that GTP always use the new investors money to support the old existing schemes. Once it can't get the new money any more, it will run out of money and collapse.

For references, please visit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

http://www.fido.asic.gov.au/fido/fido.nsf/byHeadline/Ponzi schemes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRTPKcJGwe4

Or you may google "ponzi-scheme" by yourself.

 

[Forenth]

Glad to see they look after their directors, see agenda for the meeting of 19 February 2009 at
www.great-southern.com.au/Key_Dates.aspx

Nice to see in the meeting agenda that the directors can acquire hundreds of thousands of shares, and Cameron Rhodes 2 million, at VWAP's that reflect the REAL share price. No floor price of $0.50 for directors!

Investors who voted no and had loans are made to pay extra cash to GSL even after they seize the entire investment, but management can opt in, yes... that's choose to opt in or out independently of any other director's decision, for mountains of shares at the current pathetic share price. One set of share issue rules for investors who don't want one at all, and a completely different one for the mongrels at the top of GSL.

Any cattle project shareholders in Perth should attend and ram this #$%& down their throats. They haven't just tied you up and slapped you in the face, they've now dropped their pants, turned around and you can imagine the rest.

These pigs have filled up the trough at investors expense and are wallowing in it as much as they can. The useless ASIC has probably approved this double standard as well.

 

[pist'n broke]

Nice to see in the meeting agenda that the directors can acquire hundreds of thousands of shares, and Cameron Rhodes 2 million, at VWAP's that reflect the REAL share price. No floor price of $0.50 for directors!

Investors who voted no and had loans are made to pay extra cash to GSL even after they seize the entire investment, but management can opt in, yes... that's choose to opt in or out independently of any other director's decision, for mountains of shares at the current pathetic share price. One set of share issue rules for investors who don't want one at all, and a completely different one for the mongrels at the top of GSL.

Any cattle project shareholders in Perth should attend and ram this #$%& down their throats. They haven't just tied you up and slapped you in the face, they've now dropped their pants, turned around and you can imagine the rest.

These pigs have filled up the trough at investors expense and are wallowing in it as much as they can. The useless ASIC has probably approved this double standard as well.

Love your way with words, totally appropriate pictures!

Well, the directors (partly) pulled off this incredible 'Project Transform' against long odds.
By any reasonable standard they deserve mutual pats on the back and serious pecuniary considerations. Their hard work delayed the demise of GS by at least a year. Well done!
Double standards? How so, sir? You can't possibly treat pigs and ducks the same, sir. Or they would all fly, sir.
Stand by for the next ripoff.

Thought experiment only!
If there was a GS director between you and a brick wall, how much damage would be done to the brick wall? (No witnesses anywhere!)

 

[pist'n broke]

Pist'n broke,

GTP's MIS schemes, I think, are a sort of “Ponzi Scheme” in a sense that GTP always use the new investors money to support the old existing schemes. Once it can't get the new money any more, it will run out of money and collapse.

Thanks Wooduk and Jackob for explanation and links.
Just another slight variation of the ancient, ?illegal? pyramid.
Had to stop digging, otherwise I might need anger counseling, what a dummy have I been! Can't go on kicking the dog.
Had no idea GS was topping up early schemes to make them look better.
When should a licensed adviser, selling the schemes, have known? He certainly pointed out that nobody lost money on the early projects and pushed strongly that much better things are likely to come.
Guess he just repeated the guff in the GS prospectus.

Memo to myself:
Try to forget about the whole GS mess, let the pigs wallow until they burst. Stand back, the smell will not be nice when fecal matter flies freely. Hope for some leftovers, after the vultures have had their fill too.

Stay well clear of financial advisers, check and double check everything.

Get on with live, lazy bastard. Get up and find another job now!
You have learnt a lesson. Its not the end of the world, lots of people are worse off.
There's always the government pension.........no worries, mate.
Most important: Have look at the stars tonight.

 

[wooduk]

Thanks Wooduk and Jackob for explanation and links.
Just another slight variation of the ancient, ?illegal? pyramid.
Had to stop digging, otherwise I might need anger counseling, what a dummy have I been! Can't go on kicking the dog.
Had no idea GS was topping up early schemes to make them look better.
When should a licensed adviser, selling the schemes, have known? He certainly pointed out that nobody lost money on the early projects and pushed strongly that much better things are likely to come.
Guess he just repeated the guff in the GS prospectus.

Memo to myself:
Try to forget about the whole GS mess, let the pigs wallow until they burst. Stand back, the smell will not be nice when fecal matter flies freely. Hope for some leftovers, after the vultures have had their fill too.

Stay well clear of financial advisers, check and double check everything.

Get on with live, lazy bastard. Get up and find another job now!
You have learnt a lesson. Its not the end of the world, lots of people are worse off.
There's always the government pension.........no worries, mate.
Most important: Have look at the stars tonight.

Whoa PB, I do not want you to fold your cards my friend, I don't get off with my jolleys when you typify that I am not that far outof pocket like you.
Many good people ,probably 40,000 are affected by this legal ponzi. There is now enough evidence to argue for not one but more legal recourse

In the event that the class action is successful but GTP is in liquidation, the successful class action group can file with the Liquidator or alternatively, seek redress against the directors and officers liability insurance policy.

As an aside, the leases remain in place so long as there is a responsible entity there or a new one is appointed. This means that the Liquidator can only sell the land subject to the leases and can not call upon the growers to remove the trees. This position can be leveraged into a very strong position if carefully handled. You have also got to believe the valuations in the balance sheet of GTP to feel comforted that assets well exceed liabilities. If this turns out not to be the case, the directors may have a separate case to answer.

 

[wooduk]

STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER






here are the questions again
In kpmg report 2003 plantation project,a forestry report was attached.

The forest report was commenting on the reasonableness of the input in the financial model prepared by great southern.

The forester reviewed great southerns model,in those models GTP predicted yeilds at 10 years for the districts.

Albany- 152.7m3/ha----164.4m3/ha

golden triangle- 221m3/ha-----148m3/ha

Qlnd- 108m3/ha----103.3m3/ha

Yet the same forestry expert notes the PDS for the 2003 that the management is predicting at LEAST 250m3/ha

IFTHAT IS THE CASE WHY IS THAT ?

1. No mention is made of the seven shortfalls in the KPMG report?

2. GSL waited until October the 7th 2008 to tell us the lots were now cactus

3.Is not the failure to disclose these abysmal results a breach of GSL continueous disclosure obligations?

4.Why was it that each time prospectus raising were being made,why were the investors not told?

5.Why did not GSL disclose why they did were not meeting expectations and at only made marginal at best?

6.Could not a participant in the project transformation,as well as shareholders have a case against GSP?

 

[tinytim]

Wooduk,

You have once again put it very elequintly. Yep. Continuous disclosure requirements are out the window!!!! And ASIC sit back and watch. I really hope that the amount of traffic this is recieving (Dennis & Co told me about 1,100 so far in the general action), that this makes some noise...

Anyone thought about going to the media to try make some noise?

The thing that blows me away, is their 2003 Environvest (GSMAL) annual report was so negative (same directors). Then the prospectus for the 2006 cattle project not only claims to have incredible success opportunities, they have the gall to infer they've never done this before...

Don't know about any of you, but I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I've joined the Dennis & Co action - and when my solicitor (not dennis & co) finishes looking at the information in relation to the loan i have, I will be looking to cancel the finance contract based on a breach of mutual contractural obligations - they have failed to provide me the service for which i entered the loan. Amazing that Adelaide Bank were gullible enough to buy their loan book! What are they stupid too! Or just also conned.

Gonna go drink some single malt Might be the last bootle I buy

 

[wooduk]

media will only get involved when the litigation is possibly news worthy,remember there other bad news stories un folding on the stock market and considering gtp quietly slipped under the media radar from the ASX 200 without the drama of ABC,B&B,Alco etc.I do not think asecond tier company in the agribussiness is great headline busters.

Mind you I could be wrong,I have fluffed before an example of that is GTP,anyway I believe the ball is about to roll on the litigation-----I think!
By which legal entity?,that I do not know.

At this point I believe that we(people in the class action)have a good case,and I am sure all the twist and turns that have been perpatrated by the directors will be exposed-------------

 

[tally-ho]

media will only get involved when the litigation is possibly news worthy,remember there other bad news stories un folding on the stock market and considering gtp quietly slipped under the media radar from the ASX 200 without the drama of ABC,B&B,Alco etc.I do not think asecond tier company in the agribussiness is great headline busters.

Mind you I could be wrong,I have fluffed before an example of that is GTP,anyway I believe the ball is about to roll on the litigation-----I think!
By which legal entity?,that I do not know.

At this point I believe that we(people in the class action)have a good case,and I am sure all the twist and turns that have been perpatrated by the directors will be exposed-------------

Why would you think that story is not newsworthy? Timing is the key to success. There will be tax time stories and warnings to save people from making the same mistakes will become very relevant.

Most fun will be, it will piss GTP off big time, because it stops new money coming in from new dummies and the old dummies (that's us) aren't buying anymore.

All those people with a heartbreaking story, put it down on a piece of paper now, so it's ready to send in when needed. Maybe someone knows a way how we can coordinate things a bit as a group.

 

[tally-ho]

media will only get involved when the litigation is possibly news worthy,remember there other bad news stories un folding on the stock market and considering gtp quietly slipped under the media radar from the ASX 200 without the drama of ABC,B&B,Alco etc.I do not think asecond tier company in the agribussiness is great headline busters.

Mind you I could be wrong,I have fluffed before an example of that is GTP,anyway I believe the ball is about to roll on the litigation-----I think!
By which legal entity?,that I do not know.

At this point I believe that we(people in the class action)have a good case,and I am sure all the twist and turns that have been perpatrated by the directors will be exposed-------------

Why would you think that story is not newsworthy? Timing is the key to success. There will be tax time stories.... and warnings to save people from making the same mistakes will become very relevant then.

Most fun will be, it will piss GTP off big time, because it stops new money coming in from new dummies and the old dummies (that's us) aren't buying anymore.

All those people with a heartbreaking story, put it down on a piece of paper now, so it's ready to send in when needed. Maybe someone knows a way how we can coordinate the timing of it amongst ourselves.