Gobsmacked - can good educators be such bad traders?

[MRC & Co]

A great point.

That begs the question - does the converse apply? Can a good educator be a good trader?

100% guaranteed.

 

[BBand]

"Can a good educator be a good trader?"

The obvious answer is YES

I would think that good educators have the potential to be among the best traders!!

After all they have a head start with all the knowledge that they have accumulated and tested.
The real educators are the ones who demonstrate their skills practically

I think that most of us have used the skills of educators at some time in our developement as traders, and I for one cerainly would not pay an educator unless he demonstrates his qualities by trading live.



Logically the answer must be yes, but people believe what they want to believe - end of story

 

[tech/a]

Evidently Shwagger failed miserably as a Futures trader yet wrote many books on the topic.
George Soros was a pretty fair trader!
Stan Weinstien holds his own.
Radge i know he makes a good profit.

But there are many who you just dont know.
Guppy,Douglas,Williams to name a few.

All in all it doesnt matter what matters is if YOU make a profit and where you get the education from is of no concern.(well not by me at least).

I'll also bet many systems analysts have never made a cent trading.

 

[Ageo]

Hmm so he didnt close out his position when it went past his stop? what happens if the dow continued to roar up? basically he was left with a naked position and was "hoping" it would go back down.

He should teach at Star City

 

[BBand]

Hi Micheal,
I had never heard of "Positive Expectancy" before Van Tharp published his first version of "Trade your way to financial freedom"

Although many of us were already using some form of the concepts. I think he was the first to formalise it and make it popular to the general trading public.
"Forget accuracy and Trade for Expectancy"

As Temjin asked earlier - why not email him - he may even make it into an article for the newsletter

I owe a great deal to VT and I think many here knowingly or unknowingly also owe him

Some people are clever, and some people think they are

 

[Temjin]

All in all it doesnt matter what matters is if YOU make a profit and where you get the education from is of no concern.(well not by me at least).

I agree.

The only thing that matters is the education you get that would lead you to profit. It doesn't matter who the person is teaching, where he/she source their information on, or how "perfect" he/she is to the materials that they teach. No one is perfect in this regards.

One should not simply invalidate an expert's teaching just because he has made a mistake in his field of teaching. It would be naive and close minded to do so. The very people who accuse Van Tharp for not being "as successful" in trading and ignore his advises would probably be the one who fails in trading.

 

[MRC & Co]

If you listen to unsuccessful traders, then you are probably just getting the cliches you get off every other book.

If you listen to someone who is successful, they can probably provide some very small insights to help you out.

If you listen to something unconventional from someone unsuccessful, then it's probably BS.

 

[Temjin]

If you listen to unsuccessful traders, then you are probably just getting the cliches you get off every other book.

If you listen to someone who is successful, they can probably provide some very small insights to help you out.

If you listen to something unconventional from someone unsuccessful, then it's probably BS.

It's funny though how a lot of people don't tend to follow the above advices.

I'm actually lucky enough to start off by learning from those who were regarded as "legendary" traders and the "references" they gave me to other experts who are excellent educators. They personally "vouch" for the teachings that capture the essense of their success.

Unfortunately, most people would follow "hypes" and from "short term" successful people and don't realise they are following the wrong advises until they have bankrupt their account and be discouraged.

 

[tech/a]

This is being blown out of all proportion.
A 3R loss. Good God and that was while he was training.
His timing was a day or so out.
Frankly I think it refreshing to see some humanizing.
He could have said nothing and could also have lied.

So much for transparency---good on him!

 

[chops_a_must]

This is being blown out of all proportion.
A 3R loss. Good God and that was while he was training.
His timing was a day or so out.
Frankly I think it refreshing to see some humanizing.
He could have said nothing and could also have lied.

So much for transparency---good on him!

Exactly. Would you listen to an educator who 'never' makes any trading mistakes? I think not. Whether it's as simple as typing in the wrong number, or something as large as altering the trading strategy, having limit sell rather than stop sell etc. we've all probably done it at some stage. And if a trader says he has never done something wrong, I'd say he was full of ****.

In any case, isn't this something similar to what Radge was suggesting for trades that were on with extra ordinary moves going against them in January?

 

[cuttlefish]

This is being blown out of all proportion.
A 3R loss. Good God and that was while he was training.
His timing was a day or so out.
Frankly I think it refreshing to see some humanizing.
He could have said nothing and could also have lied.

So much for transparency---good on him!

Size of the loss or that he was teaching the class doesn't matter - and yes it was a one off and he was probably caught out by some unusual volatility - but regardless it was still an example of sloppy trade management. The most poignant thing is there was no comment to that effect in his summation of the situation - he tended to blame the market volatility. As an educator a comment about how he could have managed the trade better probably wouldn't have gone astray.


But no, one sloppy trade doesn't mean he's not a succesful trader or a good educator - he's probably both.

 

[MRC & Co]

I'm actually lucky enough to start off by learning from those who were regarded as "legendary" traders

Don't know about legendary, but I would regard my teacher as good as I will ever get near. Can't ask for anything more, got lucky!

Agreed tech. Not to mention, he had reasons for not exiting (gap close) etc, based on his previous knowledge, the probability was that he would be onside in the end. He strayed from his original plan, but who says he would not have tried fade that move with seperate plays even if he did hit his original stop? Not to mention, he said straight up what happened, didn't hide it, sounds like your normal non-internet-ego trader.

 

[MichaelD]

This is being blown out of all proportion.
A 3R loss. Good God and that was while he was training.
His timing was a day or so out.
Frankly I think it refreshing to see some humanizing.
He could have said nothing and could also have lied.

So much for transparency---good on him!

No, a 3R loss won't kill anyone, but breaking your trading rules will, particularly dishonouring your stops, and even more particularly if you blame THE MARKET for the loss, not YOURSELF.

1. What happens with the next trade that goes the same way? Will it be a 6R loss? A 12R loss?
2. What does he tell his classes? "I'll teach you the rules you need to follow to trade well, but they don't apply to me personally".

We all make trading errors, but there is a more insidious problem at work here.

ps I specifically avoided naming the personality involved as that IMO hinders discussion of the core issue here.

 

[tech/a]

he tended to blame the market volatility.

With good reason.
I'll bet most of you have been belted by this volitility of late even those who trade mechanically.

We all make trading errors, but there is a more insidious problem at work here.

Really.
Id have thought it would have been insidious had it been hidden/lied about or the "norm" clearly its not the norm for Vantharp or those who have been educated by his teachings.

Ive left trades on and been called out to a site and been in so much hurry I havent adjusted a trailing stop only to find I've copped a belting. My fault---yes -- the norm no---am I still net profitable---yes---have an an insidious problem--yes I'm too damned busy/to damned human at times!

 

[MRC & Co]

With good reason.
I'll bet most of you have been belted by this volitility of late even those who trade mechanically.

LOL, agreed.

Intraday is the only way you can capture that volatility and not be left in the hands of the gapping.

 

[MichaelD]

Ive left trades on and been called out to a site and been in so much hurry I havent adjusted a trailing stop only to find I've copped a belting. My fault---yes --

And there's the difference. You take responsibility for the issue, not seeking to fob the blame off elsewhere.

 

[cuttlefish]

LOL, agreed.

Intraday is the only way you can capture that volatility and not be left in the hands of the gapping.

Depends a bit on what instruments you're trading - options enable volatility to be traded independantly to delta.

 

[tech/a]

And there's the difference. You take responsibility for the issue, not seeking to fob the blame off elsewhere.

so I elected not to exit.
so I just watched it (but remember I was teaching a workshop).
I was preoccupied,
I didn’t want to compound my mistake.

Think he made it clear enough.

It took me 25 minutes to get my fill back and I was trading with a firm that guarantees a 2 second fill or it is commission free

That can be damned annoying and very costly and not your fault.
I shudder at the slippage that could occur in 5 mins let alone 25!

 

[mazzatelli1000]

Depends a bit on what instruments you're trading - options enable volatility to be traded independantly to delta.

Volatility can also be captured along with movements in the underlying.

I cannot remember which thread: but WayneL put on something akin to a put backspread - positive gamma, long vega before the results of bailout decision in the US last month.

Captured both the fall in the markets and the massive jump in volatility...I miss that fella

 

[julius]

Think about it -- if you're short and the stock gaps up against you, but the situation suggests a positive expectancy from that point on, then it makes perfect sense to hold. The current situation has to be evaluated independently from action that's already been taken : sunk losses.

Cutting losses for the sake of it makes no sense, unless it's an emotional problem of course.