Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

[The Ferret]

Slightly off topic... but somehow relevant to debate about greenies and the quoting of studies....

"....Plastic bag threat to sea life 'exaggerated'...."

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23438890-2,00.html

 

[--B--]

oh it may be off topic in the strictest sense ferret, but its quite relevant in the sense that the AGW "evidence" is extremely contentious and its certainly a trait of greeny nutters to misrepresent the truth to push their own agenda.

 

[The Ferret]

oh it may be off topic in the strictest sense ferret, but its quite relevant in the sense that the AGW "evidence" is extremely contentious and its certainly a trait of greeny nutters to misrepresent the truth to push their own agenda.

Indeed... I specifically liked the following...

Clean Up Australia chief executive Kerrie-Ann Johnson yesterday insisted the impact of plastic bags on marine life had not been exaggerated. "It is a very big issue," Ms Johnson said.

Asked to identify studies supporting her claim, Ms Johnson said one by the Australian Marine Conservation Society had concluded that 90 per cent of albatross chicks had bag remnants in their gullets.

AMCS national campaign manager Craig Bohan said his organisation had not conducted any such study.

lol....

 

[The Ferret]

And for those who don't think that the "green movement" is dangerous...

"...UN urges caution in biofuel use..."

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23438886-2,00.html

We can all thank green hysteria for untold suffering thrust upon the worlds poorest.

 

[Aussiejeff]

And for those who don't think that the "green movement" is dangerous...

"...UN urges caution in biofuel use..."

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23438886-2,00.html

We can all thank green hysteria for untold suffering thrust upon the worlds poorest.

Have to agree with that sentiment, Ferret... prioritising the conversion of food staples to provide fuel for motor transport (rather than to feed the starving masses of the planet) smacks of moral ineptitude.

Back to school for you, Mr President...... PRE-school that is, son....


AJ

 

[noco]

I cannot believe all the hysteria about G.W. being caused by Green House Gas Emissions.
The Sun is made of 90% hydrogen and has massive explosions on a daily basis.Explosions as big as 1million Hiroshima atom bombs. Surely this must explain the effect it would have on Earth; something that has been going on for millions of years. The Sun's rays radiate out in all different directions and if Earth is in the path of those rays it no doubt may effect our climate.
Does anyone know how Greenland got its name?
When Greenland was invaded by the Vikings some 1000years ago it was covered with lush green grazing land where cattle grazed and crops were grown.Hence it received the appropriate name.
Since that period, Greenland became covered with ice in a mini ICE AGE.
It is only in recent years Greenland has once again reverted back to what it was 1000 years ago; a lush green country where the Greenlanders are again grzing cattle and growing their own crops.
They are now a multi billion dollar economy and rubbing their their hands together.
There were no Green House Gas Emissions 1000 years ago.
Must make one think about all the hype that is going on at present.
It would appear Mr.Rudd may have been a bit impetuous in signing the Kyoto Protocol.I don't think he realised what it will cost the average working family that he soooo compassionate about.
Will be interesting to see the outcome!

 

[Aussiejeff]

Another worrying sign from our warming oceans

http://au.news.yahoo.com/080326/19/169kq.html

Fear not, numbercruncher! In a few thousand years, we should be heading into another Ice Age, if the Deuterium records are consistent (we are at or just past what would appear to be another "warm period" peak).... then again, are we heading into un-charted water where we can throw out all this old, hoary, scientific data?

Maybe in the interim few thousand years before a definite LONG TERM trend is apparent, we should ditch this generic *global warming* (GW) media tag for a new tag - *LOCAL CLIMATE VARIABILITY* or LCV!

The attached radiosonde readings graph is interesting though .... note the recent cooling trend of the outer atmosphere compared to the warming trend of the surface and lower atmosphere levels. Could that be a case of higher "greenhouse" gas levels reducing the transfer of surface heat out to space while increasing the amount of heat held nearer the surface?

Hmmmm.... watch this space .... in 10,000 years .....???

AJ

 

[derty]

Seriously, noco, is it the phrasing of poor and ill though out arguments like these that gives the no camp a bad name at times.

The Sun is made of 90% hydrogen and has massive explosions on a daily basis.Explosions as big as 1million Hiroshima atom bombs. Surely this must explain the effect it would have on Earth; something that has been going on for millions of years. The Sun's rays radiate out in all different directions and if Earth is in the path of those rays it no doubt may effect our climate.

The Sun is a main sequence star and at it's core it is a seething mass of nuclear fusion. The surface volatility we see is the released nuclear energy from the core convecting to the surface in a one million year journey. There are sunspot cycles that area a result of the extremely twisted and convoluted magnetic field of the Sun though these variation only amount to a less than 1% variation in brightness. There are some large eruptions and solar storms, though the Earth is protected from most of the energy from these by the magnetosphere.

The length of time for the energy to convect to the surface allows a homogenisation of any core irregularities and as a result the Sun is very stable at the moment and has been for a significant chunk of geological time. Any events at the core that will cause serious variations will be due to major events such as the helium core becoming large enough to enter into the next phase of element production. The Sun us expected to remain on the main sequence for the next 5 Billion years or so.If the Sun was wildly variable, conditions would not have remained constant enough for life to have got where it is.

Does anyone know how Greenland got its name?
When Greenland was invaded by the Vikings some 1000years ago it was covered with lush green grazing land where cattle grazed and crops were grown.Hence it received the appropriate name.
Since that period, Greenland became covered with ice in a mini ICE AGE.
It is only in recent years Greenland has once again reverted back to what it was 1000 years ago; a lush green country where the Greenlanders are again grzing cattle and growing their own crops.

um, there are ice cores from Greenland that date back 1000's of years. Also it is rumoured that the Green bit was a sales pitch to try and get people to settle in 'Green'land (the settlements of people that did go all died out too as it was not green), but it is also though to be a mistranslation of Gruntland (meaning ground-land).
It was never green.

 

[metric]

sun flares affect the earth each day, depending on severity. large clusters of solar flares effect satelites, electronic stuff, cause skin cancers. the sun is not a harmless constant like derty suggests.

russian scientists have stated the earth is going into a cooling stage due to a low cycle of sun flares. i guess the GW deciples have to attack any science that denies the existance of their 'god'.

 

[wayneL]

um, there are ice cores from Greenland that date back 1000's of years. Also it is rumoured that the Green bit was a sales pitch to try and get people to settle in 'Green'land (the settlements of people that did go all died out too as it was not green), but it is also though to be a mistranslation of Gruntland (meaning ground-land).
It was never green.

Ummmm, A bit fast and loose with the facts there matey.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

 

[derty]

sun flares affect the earth each day, depending on severity. large clusters of solar flares effect satelites, electronic stuff, cause skin cancers. the sun is not a harmless constant like derty suggests.

russian scientists have stated the earth is going into a cooling stage due to a low cycle of sun flares. i guess the GW deciples have to attack any science that denies the existance of their 'god'.

I never said it was harmless, just relatively constant. It is the variation of the Sun's brightness that will effect temperatures on Earth. Solar storms/flares are charged particles and not photons, they do not equate to brightness.

The next sunspot cycle has apparently commenced recently, so it looks like we are not entering into an extended solar minimum as has been touted.

 

[metric]

The next sunspot cycle has apparently commenced recently, so it looks like we are not entering into an extended solar minimum as has been touted.

so you admit conflicting science. how did you choose the 'greater flares' science?

 

[The Ferret]

Ummmm, A bit fast and loose with the facts there matey.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

lol. Thats gold Wayne.

Also, check out this story/video from Foreign Correspondent that I watched last year. Folks in Greenland say they are stoked about GW!

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2007/s2014173.htm

You can follow links to transcript or video of story... I note that the story also mentions Greenlands' previous warm climate...

 

[Wysiwyg]

From the website Fate of the Greenland Vikings, good yarn too.

In time he granted her a small church 6.5 feet wide and 11.5 feet long, with room for 20 to 30 worshipers.

at least the church was warm. :

 

[2020hindsight]

lol. Thats gold Wayne.

Also, check out this story/video from Foreign Correspondent that I watched last year. Folks in Greenland say they are stoked about GW!

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2007/s2014173.htm

You can follow links to transcript or video of story... I note that the story also mentions Greenlands' previous warm climate...

Most of the news about climate change is understandably gloomy.

But a little reported side of the debate is the unexpected positive effect for people living in cold climate countries.

Reporting from Greenland, Eric Campbell finds that farmers and fishermen couldn’t be happier about the rising temperatures on their gigantic island.

It’s the biggest island in the world (Australia is regarded as a continent), and 80 percent of it is covered in an ice cap that’s 3 kilometres deep at its thickest point.

Temperatures in Greenland have risen by two degrees over the past decade, and as a result, the ice cap is melting faster than previously.

For the rest of the world, this could ultimately present a problem – higher sea levels. But in Greenland, the warmer climate is a boon for many – allowing farmers to grow new crops and raise cattle, for the first time since the Vikings. And with the warmer waters come the cod.

The Foreign Correspondent team travelled around southern Greenland with an agricultural economist who is helping farmers adapt to the changed conditions.

Kenneth Hoegh accepts that rising sea levels present a problem for many countries. But he argues that for those living in the Arctic Circle, warmer temperatures are an opportunity to improve their lives, with Greenlanders possibly having access for the first time to fresh milk and vegetables.

He tells Campbell: “We’re right on the limit of agricultural production, next to the Arctic desert. The cold desert is retreating and that’s good for us … there’s always something good that comes out of something bad.”

Here's an excerpt from that link you posted ferret

and you wonder why we think you blokes are carrying on like schizophrenics on this

Temperatures in Greenland have risen by two degrees over the past decade, and as a result, the ice cap is melting faster than previously

.

 

[The Ferret]

Here's an excerpt from that link you posted ferret

and you wonder why we think you blokes are carrying on like schizophrenics on this

.

2020 misses the point again... must be blinded by the melting snow.

2020 also misses the finer point of social interaction again. Saying that you think "us blokes" carry on like "schizophrenics" shows a terrible understanding of mental illness and does nothing to further your arguement. In fact, it reveals a very, very poor set of social skills & debating skills. Childish in the extreme...

 

[2020hindsight]

ok ferret
let's start back at square one
is it getting hotter?
or isn't it?

 

[2020hindsight]

Slightly off topic... but somehow relevant to debate about greenies and the quoting of studies....

"....Plastic bag threat to sea life 'exaggerated'...."

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23438890-2,00.html

this post sickens me ferret. Ignorance - sheer ignorance.

Clipperton Reef ... up near Mexico - pollution, plastic etc etc

Clipperton's Dirty Secret

check out the vocal at the 2m 30s mark

then try this (and it really should make you sick - assuming youhave any interest in what damage we are doing - or maybe have done a bit of scuba diving perhaps) ..

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-ocean2aug02,0,3130914.story

Plague of Plastic Chokes the Seas
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On Midway Atoll, 40% of albatross chicks die, their bellies full of trash. Swirling masses of drifting debris pollute remote beaches and snare wildlife.
By Kenneth R. Weiss, Times Staff Writer
August 2, 2006

MIDWAY ATOLL -- The albatross chick jumped to its feet, eyes alert and focused. At 5 months, it stood 18 inches tall and was fully feathered except for the fuzz that fringed its head.

All attitude, the chick straightened up and clacked its beak at a visitor, then rocked back and dangled webbed feet in the air to cool them in the afternoon breeze.

The next afternoon, the chick ignored passersby. The bird was flopped on its belly, its legs splayed awkwardly. Its wings drooped in the hot sun. A few hours later, the chick was dead.

John Klavitter, a wildlife biologist, turned the bird over and cut it open with a knife. Probing its innards with a gloved hand, he pulled out a yellowish sac ”” its stomach.

Out tumbled a collection of red, blue and orange bottle caps, a black spray nozzle, part of a green comb, a white golf tee and a clump of tiny dark squid beaks ensnared in a tangle of fishing line.

"This is pretty typical," said Klavitter, who is stationed at the atoll for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "We often find cigarette lighters, bucket handles, toothbrushes, syringes, toy soldiers ”” anything made out of plastic."

It's all part of a tide of plastic debris that has spread throughout the world's oceans, posing a lethal hazard to wildlife, even here, more than 1,000 miles from the nearest city.

Midway, an atoll halfway between North America and Japan, has no industrial centers, no fast-food joints with overflowing trash cans, and only a few dozen people.

Its isolation would seem to make it an ideal rookery for seabirds, especially Laysan albatross, which lay their eggs and hatch their young here each winter. For their first six months of life, the chicks depend entirely on their parents for nourishment. The adults forage at sea and bring back high-calorie takeout: a slurry of partly digested squid and flying-fish eggs.

As they scour the ocean surface for this sustenance, albatross encounter vast expanses of floating junk. They pick up all manner of plastic debris, mistaking it for food.

As a result, the regurgitated payload flowing down their chicks' gullets now includes Lego blocks, clothespins, fishing lures and other pieces of plastic that can perforate the stomach or block the gizzard or esophagus. The sheer volume of plastic inside a chick can leave little room for food and liquid.

Of the 500,000 albatross chicks born here each year, about 200,000 die, mostly from dehydration or starvation. A two-year study funded by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency showed that chicks that died from those causes had twice as much plastic in their stomachs as those that died for other reasons

 

[doogie_goes_off]

Pity the poll is long closed, I just found my soapbox. "Other" with reasons - there is no reliable evidence of global warming, just climate change. Potential for long term variation and cause and effect is mostly theory as with all science. Show me a prediction of temperatures from '95 or so that is accurate today and I may change my tune, however root cause will still require debate. I tend not to read what those who must justify their own existence (climate modellers) write. I support the don't pollute line but until C02 is credibly a pollutant I breathe, drive, consume and fart (methane in this case). Stop population growth (Costello wrongly encouraged it) if you want to make a difference, the difference I make is I make informed decisions when time allows (you ony get so much time and decisions are imperative to the enjoyment of life).

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-ocean2aug02,0,3130914.story
continued...

Albatross fly hundreds of miles in their search for food for their young. Their flight paths from Midway often take them over what is perhaps the world's largest dump: a slowly rotating mass of trash-laden water about twice the size of Texas.
This is known as the Eastern Garbage Patch, part of a system of currents called the North Pacific subtropical gyre. Located halfway between San Francisco and Hawaii, the garbage patch is an area of slack winds and sluggish currents where flotsam collects from around the Pacific, much like foam piling up in the calm center of a hot tub.

Curtis Ebbesmeyer has been studying the clockwise swirl of plastic debris so long, he talks about it as if he were tracking a beast.

"It moves around like a big animal without a leash," said Ebbesmeyer, an oceanographer in Seattle and leading expert on currents and marine debris. "When it gets close to an island, the garbage patch barfs, and you get a beach covered with this confetti of plastic."