Finding the truth vs. "The Rule of Law"

[sptrawler]

Perhaps.. Hopefully.. And anyway in the political world of 2021 "truth" and "fact" are in short supply. The previous President of the United States still insists he is the rightful President and non one seems capable of stopping this travesty.

Anyway it seems that the Right Honourable Christian Porter (?) may have settled a number of previous sexual abuse allegations with non disclosure agreements. And now these may come to light ?

Clearly, given the zeal of the Right Honourable Christian Porter to protect his good name, we have to wait for the appropriate legal outcome before speculating on just what have have transpired in Christian Porters history and how these impact on any statemenst he has made to date. ( Or if in fact the Government cares..)

Lets just hope this coincides with justice.

Maybe Bas, the loony left think they can make Australia better than the best, because they have this underlying need to prove something( prove we can stop DV, prove we can stop Indigenous incarceration and crime rates, stop violence, stop theft, stop crime.

Well they have been able to support this utopian belief, on the back of the hard working never say die work ethic of an aging population, that tried hard worked hard and now are criticised.

I hope the young idealistic cotton wool generation, can carry the burden they are placing on themselves.
Just my opinion.

 

[sptrawler]

Seriously ? After reading that story I think Andrew Roberts-Smith is half way to a long jail stretch. Intimidating witnesses, conning police into a massive home raid on a potential witness - not to mention what actually happened in Afghanistan on the ground.

Very ugly indeed. Going to be interesting to see how long Kerry Stokes supports him - or gets dragged down.

So quick to judge Bas, another example of our brilliant media. ?

Nine drops claim soldier Ben Roberts-Smith murdered Afghan man in 2012

Nine drops a claim that Australian SAS soldier Ben Roberts-Smith murdered an Afghan man in 2012 as it prepares its final defence in a landmark defamation trial.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:
That defence, which was previously tendered to court, related to the alleged "execution of an unarmed Afghan".

The media company had claimed Mr Roberts-Smith crossed the Helmand River in search of the "unarmed man" he believed was fleeing as Australian forces approached the area, before shooting him dead at close range.
During a previous hearing in the Federal Court in 2019, counsel for Mr Roberts-Smith, Bruce McClintok QC said the sum of the allegations were "extraordinarily grave".

He raised the example of the man who was shot dead near the Helmand River, stating he was not "unarmed" as Nine was set to claim, but was equipped with detonators and an AK-47.

"My client took off his body armour and his pack and with only his weapon and a medical kit, swam across the river onto the land to the rocks, killing him," he said.

"On him, he had an AK-47… he also had detonators which were significant because they had never seen that kind of detonator in Afghanistan before, presumably foreign made.

"My client took the body down the river so it could be photographed.

"He's accused of killing an unarmed man. So far as being unarmed, my client put on display the AK-47 in the patrol room at Tarinkot…"

 

[basilio]

So quick to judge Bas, another example of our brilliant media. ?

Nine drops claim soldier Ben Roberts-Smith murdered Afghan man in 2012

Nine drops a claim that Australian SAS soldier Ben Roberts-Smith murdered an Afghan man in 2012 as it prepares its final defence in a landmark defamation trial.

www.abc.net.au

From the article:
That defence, which was previously tendered to court, related to the alleged "execution of an unarmed Afghan".

The media company had claimed Mr Roberts-Smith crossed the Helmand River in search of the "unarmed man" he believed was fleeing as Australian forces approached the area, before shooting him dead at close range.
During a previous hearing in the Federal Court in 2019, counsel for Mr Roberts-Smith, Bruce McClintok QC said the sum of the allegations were "extraordinarily grave".

He raised the example of the man who was shot dead near the Helmand River, stating he was not "unarmed" as Nine was set to claim, but was equipped with detonators and an AK-47.

"My client took off his body armour and his pack and with only his weapon and a medical kit, swam across the river onto the land to the rocks, killing him," he said.

"On him, he had an AK-47… he also had detonators which were significant because they had never seen that kind of detonator in Afghanistan before, presumably foreign made.

"My client took the body down the river so it could be photographed.

"He's accused of killing an unarmed man. So far as being unarmed, my client put on display the AK-47 in the patrol room at Tarinkot…"

SP if your going to quote a story perhaps you could acknowledge all the material rather than pick the lines you want to run ?
Mr Roberts-Smith has many horrific and credible accusations against him as the ABC story notes. And these were echoed by the Defence Forces investigation.

The defamation trial will establish how much evidence can be brought to bear.

From the ABC story.

The killing was not raised in the original articles published by Nine's newspapers but was set to form part of its defence.
It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.
Nine's newspapers claimed Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith before being shot dead by another soldier.

Research

Research

www.aph.gov.au

 

[sptrawler]

SP if your going to quote a story perhaps you could acknowledge all the material rather than pick the lines you want to run ?
Mr Roberts-Smith has many horrific and credible accusations against him as the ABC story notes. And these were echoed by the Defence Forces investigation.

The defamation trial will establish how much evidence can be brought to bear.

From the ABC story.

The killing was not raised in the original articles published by Nine's newspapers but was set to form part of its defence.
It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.
Nine's newspapers claimed Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith before being shot dead by another soldier.

Research

Research

www.aph.gov.au

Bas that doesn't change the fact, it was put forward as evidence and had to be removed as it was erroneous, that 'evidence' is supposed to be the result of an investigative report.
The remainder of the allegations are yet to be tested in court, so at this point they are just allegations, the point I put forward is the media admit to having part of it wrong.
It shows how much investigation was made to confirm the authenticity, one would hope the remainder of their allegations can bear examination, meanwhile he is presumed guilty by yourself and a large portion of the public due to a media article.
I certainly hope there isn't cause for yourself or myself to be the focus of media attention, a lot of damage can done, before they have their claims tested, as was proven by Geoffrey Rush, John Jarratt and Craig McLachlan.
Many believe unwaveringly in what the media write, as you have shown.
I think until it is proven, it is just slanderous allegations.
If and when it is proven, charges will no doubt be laid, if it is proven incorrect money will be paid and someones reputation has meanwhile been destroyed.
One of the other claims does stand out as being shaky, apparently he is meant to have kicked a handcuffed civilian off a cliff, now it comes out some else apparently shot him, so was it the cliff that killed him?, was it someone shooting him afterwards, or was it all fabricated?
It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.

Nine's newspapers claimed Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith before being shot dead by another soldier.

I'll put it another way, how would you feel if someone wrote to the press that you committed a crime and they published it rather than forwarding it to the authorities?

 

[sptrawler]

Following on from previous post, this is what was written in February:
The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald have alleged Mr Roberts-Smith was involved in multiple unlawful killings as an Australian soldier in Afghanistan, including that of Ali Jan, a farmer who in 2012 was kicked off a cliff while handcuffed and then shot dead. Mr Roberts-Smith is also alleged to have ordered soldiers in his command to shoot dead detained Afghan men.

The inference IMO, is a lot different to what is written now:

It is also separate from another allegation first raised in the media articles over the killing of Afghan civilian Ali Jan.

Nine's newspapers claimed Ali Jan was handcuffed and kicked off a cliff by Mr Roberts-Smith before being shot dead by another soldier.

So in reality, now they are saying that Ben Roberts Smith, kicked a handcuffed man, who obviously survived because it may have been a small mound as opposed to a cliff.
What is the old saying? "it's how you say it"
So Bas now I have acknowledged the whole article, I just didn't want it to be long winded, when it was just meant to show the media admitted an error.
I suppose it boils down to whether you are a person who thinks the worst of everyone, or waits to hear the facts before making a judgement.
Oh and I just remembered another who successfully sued for defamation recently, John Hewson.

 

[sptrawler]

While on the subject of the media, in today's proceedings.

‘Court proceedings are not run by the media’: Judge blasts leak of de Belin charges being dropped

A judge has asked how journalists were informed that the footballer’s sexual assault case would be withdrawn before a court was notified, telling lawyers that she is not pleased and noting court proceedings are not run by the media.

www.smh.com.au

 

[IFocus]

Maybe Bas, the loony left think they can make Australia better than the best, because they have this underlying need to prove something( prove we can stop DV, prove we can stop Indigenous incarceration and crime rates, stop violence, stop theft, stop crime.

Well they have been able to support this utopian belief, on the back of the hard working never say die work ethic of an aging population, that tried hard worked hard and now are criticised.

I hope the young idealistic cotton wool generation, can carry the burden they are placing on themselves.
Just my opinion.

I think you are living in a bubble to some degree SP my kids and their friends hold serious jobs with more responsibility, work far harder, longer hours and get paid less than I did as a tradesman back in the day... pretty much thanks to your Liberal Party.

 

[sptrawler]

I think you are living in a bubble to some degree SP my kids and their friends hold serious jobs with more responsibility, work far harder, longer hours and get paid less than I did as a tradesman back in the day... pretty much thanks to your Liberal Party.

That's interesting IFocus, my oldest is an underground sparkie on $160k, best mate is a garbo on $100k, daughter works 3 days a week in a library on $50k.
So I don't know what you did back in the day, but I was a senior supervisor in SECWA in the late 80's on $35k, with 5 foreman and multi disciplines working under my supervision.
So either you were paid really well, back in the day, or your kids are in the wrong jobs?

 

[The Triangle]

I think you are living in a bubble to some degree SP my kids and their friends hold serious jobs with more responsibility, work far harder, longer hours and get paid less than I did as a tradesman back in the day... pretty much thanks to your Liberal Party.

Kids work harder, longer, and get less? Sounds like poor parenting over poor government.

 

[IFocus]

Kids work harder, longer, and get less? Sounds like poor parenting over poor government.

Could be but its a fact that employment is less secure, more market based and ruthless than ever.

Also a fact wages have long been supressed by government policy while they keep saying they want wages to rise...BS.

One of the few areas this mob actually have policy on not that its implicit.

That's before you get to the attack on lower wage earners and those radical unions (nurses and firemen) etc.

Meanwhile the cheer squad here keeps cheering while the house burns.

 

[rederob]

That's interesting IFocus, my oldest is an underground sparkie on $160k, best mate is a garbo on $100k, daughter works 3 days a week in a library on $50k.
So I don't know what you did back in the day, but I was a senior supervisor in SECWA in the late 80's on $35k, with 5 foreman and multi disciplines working under my supervision.
So either you were paid really well, back in the day, or your kids are in the wrong jobs?

Try using data instead of anecdote.
In the past 50 years periods of Labor in government have overseen increased rates of average weekly wages:

The period from 2013 onward is clearly discernible, and was the start of Abbott's reign.

The hours worked scenario is very tricky for a host of reasons. Nevertheless, there are two overriding trends. The first is increasing casualisation of the labour market, where a traditional 38 hour week has been replaced by a typical 35 hour week maximum. And the second is a trend to cut out paid overtime.

The bottom line is that @IFocus is correct. If you are a full-time worker your average hours have increased and your average wages are less.

 

[sptrawler]

You could go back a bit Rob, 2008 - 2012 the Rudd/ Gillard years. ?​

Check out the 2000 - 2008 Howard years. ? ? ?
You shouldn't be so selective with your data.

Household incomes​

Even with the gender pay gap and many women working part-time, household incomes have, on average, increased considerably over the last two decades. In the 2017/18 financial year, the average weekly household income, before tax, was $2,242, up from $1,361 in 1995/96 (Figure 2).

Figure 2: Average weekly household income (before tax), by household type, 1995/96 to 2017/18 to 2017-18

Note: Adjusted for inflation to 2017/18 dollars. Data for 2001/02 were not available. To maintain the two-year intervals, data for 2000/01 and 2002/03 were averaged as an estimate for 2001/02.
Source: ABS (various years - 1996 to 2019)
Credit: Australian Institute of Family Studies 2020

 

[SirRumpole]

Figure 2: Average weekly household income (before tax), by household type, 1995/96 to 2017/18 to 2017-18

Does this include government benefits, family tax allowances etc or just employer pay ?

It would also be interesting to see a breakdown between public and private sectors.

 

[SirRumpole]

Does this include government benefits, family tax allowances etc or just employer pay ?

It would also be interesting to see a breakdown between public and private sectors.

Not to nitpick but I think its a bit off topic for the thread, maybe here.

The state of the economy at the street level

I don't know if Labor would have done anything sooner but to me it's worth finding out if they are better than the current mob. Change for change sake, its happened before, but I doubt it will happen in the current climate.

www.aussiestockforums.com

 

[sptrawler]

Does this include government benefits, family tax allowances etc or just employer pay ?

It would also be interesting to see a breakdown between public and private sectors.

Robs chart shows average weekly wages, the one I posted shows household income with government subsidies.
I'm sure you can find it, there is heaps of info, when competency standards were introduced in the late 1990's, there was a wage explosion.
But as you say, getting way off topic.

 

[rederob]

You could go back a bit Rob, 2008 - 2012 the Rudd/ Gillard years. ?​

Check out the 2000 - 2008 Howard years. ? ? ?
You shouldn't be so selective with your data.

Household incomes​

Even with the gender pay gap and many women working part-time, household incomes have, on average, increased considerably over the last two decades. In the 2017/18 financial year, the average weekly household income, before tax, was $2,242, up from $1,361 in 1995/96 (Figure 2).

Figure 2: Average weekly household income (before tax), by household type, 1995/96 to 2017/18 to 2017-18

View attachment 125105

Note: Adjusted for inflation to 2017/18 dollars. Data for 2001/02 were not available. To maintain the two-year intervals, data for 2000/01 and 2002/03 were averaged as an estimate for 2001/02.
Source: ABS (various years - 1996 to 2019)
Credit: Australian Institute of Family Studies 2020

I went back 50 years and the data is accurate.
Your claims were not supported.
This chart covers most of the period you referenced and shows how poorly based your claims were:

@SirRumpole also notes that family income is very different from hours average hours worked and wages.
Household incomes are simply the wrong metic to make your point.
And yes, it's off topic, except that we found the truth!

 

[sptrawler]

Lets go back to your years and see the plunge, Labor years 1980-1990. ? That's 50 years Rob.

The other thing you forgot to mention, average working life wages have increased, because last time Labor were in, they gave everyone an extra two years of working life, by increasing the pension age to 67. ?

 

[rederob]

Lets go back to your years and see the plunge, Labor years 1980-1990. ? That's 50 years Rob.


View attachment 125110

Not an appropriate metric, yet again!
You realise your post#172 and the one above counter each other, don't you?

@IFocus made the point about working longer for comparatively less.
Thats exactly what over 50 years of data on wages and hours worked proves to be the case.

 

[sptrawler]

Not an appropriate metric, yet again!
You realise your post#172 and the one above counter each other, don't you?

@IFocus made the point about working longer for comparatively less.
Thats exactly what over 50 years of data on wages and hours worked proves to be the case.

Fact: the largest fall in real wages was under Hawke.
Fact: the largest increase in retirement age was under Rudd.

 

[rederob]

Fact: the largest fall in real wages was under Hawke.
Fact: the largest increase in retirement age was under Rudd.

Real wages and nominal wages are different things, and that's why @IFocus was correct.
Under Hawke annual wages increased by 6.7% on average. And GDP more than doubled from Fraser's years while employment growth tripled!
Under Morrison wages growth is another pitiful display: