Federal Police

visual said:

Julia,
Something isn`t right with this story,maybe the AFP stuffed up,maybe the Brits stuffed up,seeing as they had their help and presumably were working togheter.Let`s hope that he is indeed innocent and doesn`t resurface as a killer as many of the released guantanomo detainees have done.

Click to expand...

A few days ago I said this,

now the ABC reports that likely scotland yard passed on the wrong information,re-the sim card.So having being led down the wrong track whose to say what the AFP actually found for themselves,no wonder the good doctor went home meekly,he was probably punching the sky as he went,on top of that now the second doctor questioned has been found as not having the resume he claims,the mind boggles.
Still it`s always good to know that so many people will try and reintrepret information to suit themselves,frankly so far I feel safer knowing the AFP are on the ball than wanting to cover themselves in false glory.

After having read this whole thread I suspect that if an asteroid hits earth and kills millions that will somehow be blamed on Howard too. Flame away.

MS+Tradesim said:

After having read this whole thread I suspect that if an asteroid hits earth and kills millions that will somehow be blamed on Howard too. Flame away.

Click to expand...

I think if an asteriod hit the Earth little Johnnie would be looking at ways to try to blame the state governments.

mark70920 said:

I think if an asteriod hit the Earth little Johnnie would be looking at ways to try to blame the state governments.

Click to expand...

If you really believe that, I think you've gone a long way towards demonstrating my point in a round-a-bout way.

I found some other events that are also no doubt linked to Howard's "machinations":

http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2007/07/31/1992413.htm?section=justin

http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2007/07/31/1992367.htm?section=justin

And no more from me. This thread is beyond description.

Wow some of you guys really get your undies in a knot over Howard. When I see you out there in R/L campaigning for human rights I will take notice. Otherwise your part of the society that Europe or where ever bad mouths about, the percentage that doesn’t really do anything substantial except forum bash. Well worse you whine at those that admit they don’t care or know the full story and are doing nothing themselves.

This whole saga was stuff up, but let the full story unfold completely. Straight out venom and hatred or points scoring is not a quality I could care about, in fact it makes Howard look better then what he is.

moXJO said:

When I see you out there in R/L campaigning for human rights I will take notice. .

Click to expand...

Well, I for one marched against the 'future invasion' of Iraq. I think at the time Johnny called us ignorant trouble makers. Except that I found myself marching with mums, dads, grandparents, teachers, priests, students........ I am no church goer, but as the march passed each church (in Adelaide we have them on every corner, opposite the pubs) the church bells were tolling for us. Very moving! Well, we were moved but I guess the PM wasn't!

visual said:

....now the ABC reports that likely scotland yard passed on the wrong information, re-the sim card. ......

frankly so far I feel safer knowing the AFP are on the ball than wanting to cover themselves in false glory.

Click to expand...

just thinking about the Sim card question (and only that part of your post , visual) ... and guessing that the AFP (and Scotland Yard ?) will no doubt be more careful in future...
.
When I saw that car, I thought "How would they know where that particular sim card originated, if they found it in a burning vehicle" ? Isn't there a fair chance that the plastic would have pretty much melted? I mean , that phone was not gonna be much use after than fire

So (maybe - just maybe) they guess that its the same as the one they believe that MH gave his cousin(?) And after that they find the actual Simcard elsewhere (?) And then its too late because they've acted too early. (all conjecture on my part).

So you'd have to bet that they'll be more careful in future. (no conjecture there surely)
And insist on their maximum time for investigating before arresting yes?

Like, Perry Mason could crack these problems in a couple of minutes - but since he died, the case-crackers probably need a bit longer. - maybe?

I think the current policy is that the AFP can use up 7 days investigating - then extend another 7 days etc , pretty much ad infinitim ( again someone might set me straight here ) .

Is that reasonable? - A rolling time limit ( which in effect is unlimited?)
Provided it needs judicial "umpires" approval at each extension of time?
"Score tied after one week - let's go into extra time" sort of thing?

Only if the Judiciary are arm's length from the pollies . yes?

As well as maybe an upper limit of ?....X days ? 28? 56?

Just thinking aloud here.

Keelty always comes across as almost mild-mannered. Quite reasonably explains that computer drives have to be examined, international time zones have to be considered etc - - all good points - providing yuo are looking for "a couple of weeks" - rather than "a couple of months" (or years as the case may be.)

PS good for you Prospector for marching so early in the episode I was still just at the "seriously confused" stage - and had yet to hit "seriously alarmed" stage (as I recall).
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=88790&highlight=clocks#post88790

PS Moxjo - suppose I didnt march i.e. "vote with my feet" - do I get any forgiveness points if I simply "vote"?
What's the difference between a placard on the street , and one posted on the web?

Prospector said:

Well, I for one marched against the 'future invasion' of Iraq. I think at the time Johnny called us ignorant trouble makers. Except that I found myself marching with mums, dads, grandparents, teachers, priests, students........ I am no church goer, but as the march passed each church (in Adelaide we have them on every corner, opposite the pubs) the church bells were tolling for us. Very moving! Well, we were moved but I guess the PM wasn't!

Click to expand...

Well done Prospector. I was with 2020 at the "seriously confused" stage.

2020hindsight said:

PS Moxjo - suppose I didnt march i.e. "vote with my feet" - do I get any forgiveness points if I simply "vote"?
What's the difference between a placard on the street , and one posted on the web?

Click to expand...

Ok first off I'm not saying you first must be involved physically to take the moral ground in every discussion. Lets face it ,its a forum board here. But for the amount of time ,emotion and effort some of you put into your posts ever thought of actually doing something yourselves?
And is it so wrong to say that if your going to preach something or tell people how morally wrong they are then I'd like to see a little effort on your part.

2020 did you petition for Hicks, write off to the pollies ,get involved with any support groups?. If not , why not ?(serious question, because you went to a lot of effort with your posts) .Now I was not pointing the finger in your direction. Simply that if people want to lecture(not you ,and not really that bad on this forum) about how horrible Australians have become then I hope they are doing more for these causes then the people they are complaining about.

The difference between a placard on the street , and one posted on the web is real effort compared to armchair critic laziness and the fact you miss out on a sense of community spirit when you do become involved. Everyone has to vote so "vote with my feet" is a bit of a jip statement considering both sides of government suck.And you are made to do it,so its not of your free will

Not a flame 2020 I enjoy your posts. Mainly because you have a very different viewpoint then mine on a lot of subjects. This all sprung up because I was on a jobsite with a Hardcore Howard Hater today and it was a headache to say the least .So a bit of a vent on my part

So have opinions changed now the "chat room" information has been released?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/andrews-reveals-haneef-details/2007/07/31/1185647893695.html

theage said:

He said an internet chat room conversation that was monitored by police revealed the afternoon before Dr Haneef's "attempted hasty departure" form Australia aroused suspicion.

"In it, the brother of Dr Haneef said: 'Nothing has been found out about you' and (he then) asks when he would get out, to which Dr Haneef replied 'today'," Mr Andrews said.

"The brother asked whether he had permission to take leave (from work) and what he'd told the hospital."

Mr Andrews said Dr Haneef told his brother he had told the hospital that his wife had given birth to a daughter, and "nothing else".

"The brother then said not to delay his departure and not to let anyone else use his number in Australia, nor to give it to anyone.

"The brother added that 'auntie' told him that brother Kafeel used it in some sort of project over there," Mr Andrews said, in a reference to UK bombing accused Kafeel Ahmed.

Mr Andrews said the AFP had told him before making his visa decision that police suspected the internet conversation may be evidence Dr Haneef had prior knowledge of the UK bomb plot.

"And secondly, the AFP consider Dr Haneef's attempted urgent departure from Australia on a one-way ticket for a purpose which appears to be a false pretext to be highly suspicious and may reflect Haneef's awareness of the conspiracy to plan and prepare the acts of terrorism in London and Glasgow.

"The suspicion which the federal police referred to in terms of Dr Haneef was that he was wanting to get out of Australia not because of the reason proffered, namely that the child had been born - remembering that that child had been born I think six days earlier.

"That that was a pretext, a false pretext, on which he was wanting to get out of Australia because of his association with the Ahmed brothers, the cousins, and the incidents which had occurred in the UK."

Click to expand...

http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2007/07/31/1993348.htm

abc said:

He says in the conversation, Dr Haneef's brother says, "nothing has been found out about you", "have you got permission to leave work?" and "tell them you have a newborn daughter".

Mr Andrews also says, in the conversation, which took place the day before Dr Haneef tried to leave Australia, the doctor's brother asks, "when are you getting out?" To which Dr Haneef replied, "today."

Click to expand...

moXJO said:

Ok first off I'm not saying you first must be involved physically to take the moral ground in every discussion. Lets face it ,its a forum board here. But for the amount of time ,emotion and effort some of you put into your posts ever thought of actually doing something yourselves?
And is it so wrong to say that if your going to preach something or tell people how morally wrong they are then I'd like to see a little effort on your part.

2020 did you petition for Hicks, write off to the pollies ,get involved with any support groups?. If not , why not ?(serious question, because you went to a lot of effort with your posts) .Now I was not pointing the finger in your direction. Simply that if people want to lecture(not you ,and not really that bad on this forum) about how horrible Australians have become then I hope they are doing more for these causes then the people they are complaining about.

The difference between a placard on the street , and one posted on the web is real effort compared to armchair critic laziness and the fact you miss out on a sense of community spirit when you do become involved. Everyone has to vote so "vote with my feet" is a bit of a jip statement considering both sides of government suck.And you are made to do it,so its not of your free will

Not a flame 2020 I enjoy your posts. Mainly because you have a very different viewpoint then mine on a lot of subjects. This all sprung up because I was on a jobsite with a Hardcore Howard Hater today and it was a headache to say the least .So a bit of a vent on my part

Click to expand...

I don't know if that's really a valid point.

In 2003 I helped storm the Uni senate building, "Jimmy" open the liquor cabinet and drink hundreds of dollars worth of the tens of thousands of dollars worth of liquor in there. After all, that's what my fees pay for isn't it?

I've also been beaten up by horsepigs, in regards to the Iraq war protests. I've done many other boring things as well.

But does it give me the right to look down at people more than anyone else? I don't think so. Because in many people's eyes, I'm a terrorist. And probably... technically am...

cfollett said:

So have opinions changed now the "chat room" information has been released?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/andrews-reveals-haneef-details/2007/07/31/1185647893695.html



http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2007/07/31/1993348.htm

Click to expand...

The ABC radio at least gave a countering argument from some chap from the Law Council. Basically he said the conversations were "equivocal" and as such was very weak circumstantial evidence.

Without ALL the facts, not saying innocent or guilty, but there is a load of spin surrounding the whole saga... which is to be expected these days.

cfollett said:

So have opinions changed now the "chat room" information has been released?

Click to expand...

I've just finished work - but - yes, that makes interesting reading no question , thanks cf

moXJO said:

The difference between a placard on the street , and one posted on the web is real effort compared to armchair critic laziness and the fact you miss out on a sense of community spirit when you do become involved.

Click to expand...

Hey moxjo - the other difference (between street demonstration placards, and posts on chatrooms) is that you get to read the full quote lol - compare the following :-

the placard on the left (shaped like a dove) says

" Those who give up freedom for security will get neither"

Click to expand...

Here's the full quote from Benjamin Franklin as relayed from Wayne on "terriers win" thread...

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

Click to expand...

now imagine tryin to fit all that on one placard

I add some more photos including a couple that suggest that just because it's a demonstration doesn't make it right. (Guess the same could be said about a post in a chatroom lol)

But I have to plead guilty to most of your other accusations.
Couple of questions to the ether (not really expecting a reply - answers are obvious)

1. do you think the "chat room" will one day take over (to some extent) from public demonstrations?
2. No question that big brother is listening - after cfollett's post , yes?

Lol then of course there's ole PP &M

A tribute concert to Harold Leventhal

Click to expand...

Have You Been To Jail for Justic - Peter, Paul and Mary

HAVE YOU BEEN TO JAIL FOR JUSTICE

Was it Cesar Chavez? Maybe it was Dorothy Day
Some will say Dr. King or Gandhi set them on their way
No matter who your mentors are it's pretty plain to see
That, if you've been to jail for justice, you're in good company

Have you been to jail for justice? I want to shake your hand
Cause sitting in and lyin' down are ways to take a stand
Have you sung a song for freedom? or marched that picket line?
Have you been to jail for justice? Then you're a friend of mine

You law abiding citizens, come listen to this song
'Cause laws were made by people, and people can be wrong
Once unions were against the law, but slavery was fine
Women were denied the vote and children worked the mine
The more you study history the less you can deny it
A rotten law stays on the books til folks with guts defy it

The law's supposed to serve us, and so are the police
And when the system fails, it's up to us to speak our peace
We must be ever vigilant for justice to prevail
So get courage from your convictions
Let them haul you off to jail!

Click to expand...

Peter, Paul & Mary - Washington Peace March - 1971
"The answer is doh-ing in the wind" as Homer Simpson would say

Peter, Paul and Mary performed on April 24, 1971 at a peace march in Washington DC. The anti-war march was to protest the Vietnam War. They sang "Blowing in the Wind" and "Give Peace A Chance

Click to expand...

References to Martin Luther King etc

Looking at that , I think people went along for the company - - no fun smoking alone as they say

SSDM = same **** different millenium (as the bumper sticker says)
EARTH FIRST !!! (we'll mine the other planets later)
Earth is the insane asylum of the universe etc etc

Ooppss.... Now that the Federal Government is pulling chatroom stuff as evidence, let me be the first the acknowledge the WONDERFUL contribution of the Howard Government in the last 11 years in the areas of housing, indigenous affairs, border security, national security, economic well-being, etc.

I didnt mean to say any of that earlier stuff about Howard, Keelty and co. I was being facetious. And what would I know?? I DONT have all the facts like the fuhrer.

Welcome to John Howard's Australia

Brad

Nelson Mandela was jailed for 'crimes against the state' - terrorism!

You know, after the WMD fiasco, 'women overboard', etc, I just dont know who to trust anymore!

And Brad, that is, sadly, exactly the truth!

There is new legislation pending which permits police to monitor suspicious people without warrants. Isn't the fact they are already monitoring chat rooms proof they are already doing this? Why bother with the law, it is already happening!

Why is information derived from chat rooms any different in validity from any other source, e.g. phone calls? Didn't the people concerned still say what they said, regardless of the medium?

I'm not making any judgments on the content in this instance but am puzzled about the above.

Yesterday I was in a discussion about this subject with some people who just escaped with their lives on September 11. They described how previously they'd given scant thought to the realities of terrorism, but on 11 Sept that all changed. How are all of you who ridicule the current measures supposed to protect us against at least some of the potential threat going to feel if our power supply is destroyed, the Harbour Bridge blown up etc etc, with the loss of possibly thousands of Australian lives?

And before you again blame the Howard government for increasing our exposure to terrorism via Iraq etc, yes I agree entirely, but that's done now and we have to cope with whatever it has engendered.

What would you want the government to do? Just ignore any possibility of terrorism actually affecting Australia directly? Pretend it couldn't happen?
If not, then if those of you who have so vehemently criticised the current measures could outline just what you think should be happening, I'd be most interested.

Haneef lied about why he left Australia. He left because his family were told he was being hunted down by police who said his sim card was used in terrorism. So his character did not stand up in the eyes of Andrews.

To demonstrate good character he should have allowed himself to be arrested, held in detention and charged with false crimes.

My view of the Federal Police has improved, my view of the government has plunged.

If reacting badly to false information demonstrates a lack of character then they stand accused of the same failing.

If some of my telephone conversations were taken in isolation,and out of context,I am sure that I would be in serious trouble...not the least with my wife.
That is why,if people really want to get to the bottom of this ,all of the information should be revealed.However ,I bet that this never happens.
Remember when people were ringing talkback during the anti-boatpeople campaign saying that "some of these people have got money ,you know".
Anyway my daughter rang her local federal MP and got the same line...I got involved and got past the staffer to the MP.They could not supply me with one example of boat people having money...This was a dishonesty ...invented to vilify desperate people...Until we know the full story I suspect that Andrews and the government are probably involved in the same type of vilification.
This mob have form !