Federal Police

[arminius]

i'm hearin ya smurf.
and people wonder why i am so filthy with our government. at the most basic level, they are corrupt.

bring on the election!

 

[nizar]

WHat happened to Haneef is a disgrace
The AFP have destroyed his reputation and his name

 

[2020hindsight]

1. Australia in 2007 seems to be all about the almighty Dollar. Votes are bought with the promise of cheap credit and more cuts to public services or a boost to the corporate bottom line.
2. Meanwhile our basic sense of justice and what is right gets thrown overboard.
3. If the facts don't suit then just make them up.
4. It didn't used to be this way and
5. it need not be now.

Smurf,
I sure as hell agree on 1, 2, 3,
disagree on 4 , and
agree on 5 lol - (worth more discussion)

BTW Rudd says (could be election timing involved) that he would do the same thing - true, a qualification "IF HE HAD THE CORRECT FACTS". ("easyout" and very valid IMO)

But as Henderson said on ABC this morning, not much would have been different wrt AFT and DPP. Maybe you are referring to the possibility that it is
a) "being driven by pollies"
b) "in election mode"?
c) That Labour would have reacted different to Libs. The actions of the Attorney Gen and Min for Immigration etc
Not too many cockups occurred during Hawke's reign as I recall - you could be right

as for 5. IMO , it is up to us to make sure they "do it right" if it happens again Eternal vigilence (by votersl), whoever gets in lol.

Take the Rudd out of Ruddock you are left with "ock" ? "old, crustacean, k? - dunno

 

[2020hindsight]

Over my lifetime I have seen that booms are only good for the hip pocket... and 'king lousy for everything else.

interesting Wayne - I've only been investing for a year, so never thought of plotting morals vs "booms" before. But ties right in with what I heard ex Labour Minister John Button say on ABC radio recently - that things are ok at the moment during good times - but workers will need much much more protection if things go downhill

Kneejerk reaction to terror threats? Appropriate Border protection?

we're plotting new territory, but would be nice to think that they took some top legal advice (most of which criticises current anti terror laws) - and did a bit more to push tolerance of local moslems who we will need on board (IMO)

 

[Julia]

Who knows.

Is the "Truth" ever known in these circumstances?
From who's involved to the evidence---whats acceptable and whats not.
Clever arguement can supress fact.

You can be innocent and judged guilty or Guilty and argued innocent!

Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.
I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.

Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?

Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?

Quite apart from Dr Haneef's reaction, I simply cannot see how Mick Keelty and Damien Bugg don't have a considerable case to answer for the charges being brought in the first place. The fact that the charges have been dropped indicates simply - as they have said - that they don't believe there is sufficient evidence for the charge to be proved beyond doubt in court.
That is quite different from someone being proved innocent.

That being the case, the charge should never have been laid in the first place. A monumental stuff-up by these two men which has definitely lowered my confidence in their capacity to care for the security of the country.

As far as political interference is concerned, if this has in fact occurred (and I'm not at all sure that it has), then both these gentlemen have yet another case to answer. They are charged with acting impartially and without political interference. I'd support the growing call for an official enquiry into the whole messy affair.

 

[nizar]

Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.
I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.

Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?

Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?

Quite apart from Dr Haneef's reaction, I simply cannot see how Mick Keelty and Damien Bugg don't have a considerable case to answer for the charges being brought in the first place. The fact that the charges have been dropped indicates simply - as they have said - that they don't believe there is sufficient evidence for the charge to be proved beyond doubt in court.
That is quite different from someone being proved innocent.

That being the case, the charge should never have been laid in the first place. A monumental stuff-up by these two men which has definitely lowered my confidence in their capacity to care for the security of the country.

As far as political interference is concerned, if this has in fact occurred (and I'm not at all sure that it has), then both these gentlemen have yet another case to answer. They are charged with acting impartially and without political interference. I'd support the growing call for an official enquiry into the whole messy affair.

I agree wholly Julia.

I would definately sue the Government for defamation.

 

[wayneL]

I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.

Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?

Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?

I have a very close friend who is an Indian Muslim. Watching Dr Hanneef, I reflected that I could very well have been watching my friend in his reactions.

Of course the private reaction would be very different, but the public face is different to the private face I have noticed.

This is not to say is innocent or guilty, just that it is very much cultural how Dr Haneef presented himself. Dignity in public is very important.

 

[R0n1n]

Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.

This is what I felt as well, BUT the case is so muddled that the real truth will never come out.

Generally from my knowledge, there is evidence and you charge and arrest somebody based on it. In this case, they arrested him and then started to look for evidence.

Also, the visa cancellation is based on the fact that he is associated with people in UK who have criminal background. Fair enough, BUT then we should also not allow Tony Blair in to Oz as well ,as his wife was involved in a business deal with that convicted con man Peter Foster. I guess there are seperate rules for average joe and these useless pollies.

 

[2020hindsight]

Dignity in public is very important.

yep critical, - likewise the gravity of the potential insult.

As I understand it , this goes for all Indians - (hence their parents can vouch for their kids in arranged marriages etc) And one member can (to some extent) bring down a family - probably even worse that "loss of face" in Chinese society. (guess on my part)

Still, (devils advocate) - he had no choice but to be defensive (and seemingly impossible to defend) when asked about his cousins where the evidence is apparently sky-high and unassailable

I got the feeling that he understood why the AFP did what they did.
Asking for extra time to investigate international terrorism matters -? - gotta be ok as long as it's "reasonable".

As for the typical aussie response (changing subject, off topic etc) - I recall once telling a bar manager that his establishment was one of the lousiest I'd ever been kicked out of

 

[visual]

Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.
I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.

Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?

Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?

Quite apart from Dr Haneef's reaction, I simply cannot see how Mick Keelty and Damien Bugg don't have a considerable case to answer for the charges being brought in the first place. The fact that the charges have been dropped indicates simply - as they have said - that they don't believe there is sufficient evidence for the charge to be proved beyond doubt in court.
That is quite different from someone being proved innocent.

That being the case, the charge should never have been laid in the first place. A monumental stuff-up by these two men which has definitely lowered my confidence in their capacity to care for the security of the country.

As far as political interference is concerned, if this has in fact occurred (and I'm not at all sure that it has), then both these gentlemen have yet another case to answer. They are charged with acting impartially and without political interference. I'd support the growing call for an official enquiry into the whole messy affair.

Julia,
seeing his passive reaction,made me think that maybe he had been warned that just as his lawyers leaked information that should only have been released in court,he shouldn`t be surprised if some piece of information that the police couldn`t use suddenly found it`s way in the public arena,hence his happiness at going home.The case remains that even if he had his holiday booked for months,he decided to leave suddenly without informing his employer,seeing as his wife was in India the cheap ticket could`ve been booked in India anyway,so no need to book from here.Something isn`t right with this story,maybe the AFP stuffed up,maybe the Brits stuffed up,seeing as they had their help and presumably were working togheter.Let`s hope that he is indeed innocent and doesn`t resurface as a killer as many of the released guantanomo detainees have done.

 

[Duckman#72]

Okay..the following rant isn't just about the police, as I think the problem should be looked at in the bigger picture:

This whole affair has disgusted me. I feel sorry for the Australian citizens in that a great nation seems now to be a politically directionless puppet that has its strings pulled by the US.

The last time I visited Australia (1995), this country had an obvious identity of its own. Today, it seems as though it has an identity crisis eg. media, police.

I left the UK last October thinking that we were following America's lead. However, this is nothing compared to Australia. At least the average Brit has a good winge about Britain being influenced by the 'Yanks'. Here, the average Ozzie seems to be confused as to what patriotism actually means.

Will the real Australia please stand up?

I disagree entirely.

I don't care if it takes 6 months for the AFP to look into someone's case before dropping charges relating to terrorist activities. This stance won't make me popular with conspiracy theory, tree hugging, Keating worshipping civil libertarians here at ASF. They get some wrong, they get some right, as in every case, in every legal system in the western world.

I'm with Tech - who knows the real truth?....but I'm not going to shoot down the AFP nor the Govt for trying to keep this country a safe place. Does that make me uneducated, brainwashed, naive and racist? Doubtless many here would say ..DAMN RIGHT.

 

[2020hindsight]

I disagree entirely.

I don't care if it takes 6 months for the AFP to look into someone's case before dropping charges relating to terrorist activities. This stance won't make me popular with conspiracy theory, tree hugging, Keating worshipping civil libertarians here at ASF. They get some wrong, they get some right, as in every case, in every legal system in the western world.

I'm with Tech - who knows the real truth?....but I'm not going to shoot down the AFP nor the Govt for trying to keep this country a safe place. Does that make me uneducated, brainwashed, naive and racist? Doubtless many here would say ..DAMN RIGHT.

I also disagree to a certain extent - if it went on for much longer ( after major errors were admitted) it would have been ridiculous, but at least they were fairly quick to admit said errors.

6 months would be over the top surely
which means I've gotta address your other claims I spose ...

conspiracy theories - some good ones some bad ones - in the end, this was just about facts and errors - and admitted errors
love trees
certainly didnt worship Keating although he did many things right
civil liberties? yep. where would we be without em .

They get some wrong, they get some right

guess you got 2 right and 2 wrong mate
keep that up you'll have Keelty's job m8 lol

 

[Bushman]

Does that make me uneducated, brainwashed, naive and racist? Doubtless many here would say ..DAMN RIGHT.

None of those. I would say entitled to your own opinion as we all are.

There was a poem that I read at university by a Catholic priest in Germany during the Second World War that has always stuck with me.

'First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists'
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller

I think the good pastor ended up in one of the labour camps when the National Socialists decided that Catholicism was no longer to be tolerated in 1940's Germany. Now I am in no way saying that anything in modern day Australia is anything like the Third Reich. That would be absurd and disrespectful to those who suffered worse than any of us ever will in the course of that terrible human tradgedy. I only quote the poem as it sums up how I feel about accepting the status quo when I see a government whose autocratic powers seemingly increase by the day.

I cannot help but feel concerned when there seems to be a constant focus on 'us' and 'them', 'border protection', 'immigration detention' and the like. It's divisive and conducive to an erosion of civil rights. I especially do not like the terrorism laws and the lack of disclosure required from the government in these cases in the interest of 'national security'. I mean what does that euphimism mean?

That's just me. Does that make me a tree hugging, civil libertarian. Sure does. We are all entitled to our political views and the coming election will be where we voice them.

I will add that it is most certainly is a difficult and complex issue.

 

[doctorj]

I don't care if it takes 6 months for the AFP to look into someone's case before dropping charges relating to terrorist activities.

And if it were you or a loved one what was being held indefinately without charge and without contact with the outside world?

 

[wayneL]

None of those. I would say entitled to your own opinion as we all are.

There was a poem that I read at university by a Catholic priest in Germany during the Second World War that has always stuck with me.

'First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists'
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller

I think the good pastor ended up in one of the labour camps when the National Socialists decided that Catholicism was no longer to be tolerated in 1940's Germany. Now I am in no way saying that anything in modern day Australia is anything like the Third Reich. That would be absurd and disrespectful to those who suffered worse than any of us ever will in the course of that terrible human tradgedy. I only quote the poem as it sums up how I feel about accepting the status quo when I see a government whose autocratic powers seemingly increase by the day.

I cannot help but feel concerned when there seems to be a constant focus on 'us' and 'them', 'border protection', 'immigration detention' and the like. It's divisive and conducive to an erosion of civil rights. I especially do not like the terrorism laws and the lack of disclosure required from the government in these cases in the interest of 'national security'. I mean what does that euphimism mean?

That's just me. Does that make me a tree hugging, civil libertarian. Sure does. We are all entitled to our political views and the coming election will be where we voice them.

I will add that it is most certainly is a difficult and complex issue.

Good Post Bushman.

All,

I hope we can discuss this without disparaging those with opposing views.

Cheers

 

[Kimosabi]

Everything to do with the anti-Terrorism Laws are disgraceful.

The sooner 'Heil' Howard is out of office and we can get those Terrorism Laws repealed the better.

Once it is realised that 9/11 was an 'Inside Job', perpetrated by criminal elements of the United States Administration and Power Elite, the implications of 9/11 take on a whole new meaning.

The so called "War on Terrorism" isn't just a War on Terrorism, it is a War on all of our Civil Rights, Liberty's and Freedom's.

The sooner everyone realises the truth about 9/11 and understands the implications not only to their own personal Civil Rights, Liberty's and Freedoms, but also to their families and childrens future the better.

All of the indicators are pointing towards another major "Event" being perpetrated in the not to distant future. These "Events" always seem to coincide with poor popularity polls, and we currently have Howard and Bush drowning under a Tidal Wave of indignation.

So the next time we have a Terrorist Attack, think to yourself, could criminal elements of our own Government be behind these "Events". They always seem to be the ones that benefit the most from these "Events".

And before anyone decides to do the "Tin Foil Hat" crap, watch some of the Videos in this post first, you may be shocked by what you learn ==> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=184276&postcount=158

 

[Smurf1976]

All of the indicators are pointing towards another major "Event" being perpetrated in the not to distant future. These "Events" always seem to coincide with poor popularity polls, and we currently have Howard and Bush drowning under a Tidal Wave of indignation.

Absolutely agreed although I'm thinking more in terms of the financial markets than politics.

The financial situation now is alarmingly similar to that immediately before 9/11 with the added problem of oil. A terror attack would be the perfect justification for another round of rampant inflation to keep the markets going just as it was last time. If it results in enough grounded aircraft or some justification for releasing strategic reserves then that fixes the oil situation too.

Conspiracy? Let's see what happens as that will answer the question.

If people are frightened then one thing is certain. The terrorists have won.

 

[Kimosabi]

If people are frightened then one thing is certain. The terrorists have won.

Funnily enough, once you work out what is really going on you feel empowered...

 

[Rafa]

Am i the only one who feels sorry for the AFP...
These poor guys are only doing their job... but their ability to do it is continually being compromised by a govt keen play politics and try corner Labor.

If Andrews hadn't been directed to intervene for politcal reasons.. the AFP would not have been rushed into pressing any old charge with no hope of it sticking.

As its turns out, an alleged suspect has been freed, and amazingly been allowed to leave the country!

So much for a govt being tough on terror!

The same thing happened with children overboard... the govt rushed out to the press to cease the political stage, before all the facts were known.

I got no problems with people being detained as long as possible so that the investigators can finish their job as proceed according to the facts, down the path of their choosing, not one that pre-mapped out by the politicians.

Is it just me, or is anyone seriously concerned with the erosion of the separation of power principle... the political, the administrative and the judiciary.

 

[2020hindsight]

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=185038

Rafa - it's not just you that's for certain
and I guess we're all "Keelty as charged"
but since Scott Rush is sentenced to "curtains"
I'll find forgiveness read hard

Keelty is not allowed to brag when he successfully gets informers into terrorist rings, and there have been some great results in Indonesia.

But I will have trouble forgiving him if Scott Rush is killed
http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=280628
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...ne-of-bali-nine/2005/10/12/1128796592231.html