Federal Coalition discussion

[Knobby22]

Since Howard the right have ruled and now the hard right more so, the younger generation wont cop that as Labor has moved right also ( accepting Neoliberalism) the Libs will survive but there will be pain as they will have to shift their ideology IMHO.

Or someone will do a Robert Menzies and do a reboot with a new party.

 

[wayneL]

Here is the problem the Libs have.

Structurally we have become a welfare state, most people cannot survive without largesse from the g'mint... And this includes many businesses of all sizes, but especially the large corporations, exacerbated and accelerated by the (now proven behind reasonable doubt) insanity of the lockdowns.

Dragging our country back to productivity, outside of the RE and mining sector, is a pain nobody wants to contemplate. Maybe we won't have to in the near to medium term, but eventually we will.

For the current crop of Libs (with a couple of notable exceptions), this is a bridge Too Far. As a party they are completely incapable, both ideologically and pragmatically, have been unable to lead in this direction.... and the unthinking and self centred plebs unable the even contemplate what inevitability lies in their future

Therefore, we are stuck with the socialists until our economy is FUBAR.

The right will then fix everything, only for the left to fark it all up again.

Rinse
repeat

*And it profoundly disagree that the current Libs are anywhere near right of centre... and this is the problem

 

[wayneL]

Or someone will do a Robert Menzies and do a reboot with a new party.

Needed

 

[moXJO]

I have a Labor friend and he is desperate for the Libs to continue to move further to the right.

He reckons that Labor can do what happened in Victoria and WA and essentially destroy the Libs next election. Like only own 10% of the seats Australia wide and have Labor as the main party and the opposition as the Greens with the Nats, Libs and One Nation as the independents.

Bit of a pipe dream but my experience was that the Libs just lost in Victoria and thought they were going to get in easy and went right wing and got smashed the following election. So I get what he is saying.

You look at Queensland and the Libs can't even win that State.

Real possibility. If you have real policies and vision then you don't need to lean on identity politics and fear.

Labor has that (no matter how stupid) and its more than what Libs could come up with.

Shame about nsw though. But let's see how it goes.

 

[SirRumpole]

Here is the problem the Libs have.

Structurally we have become a welfare state, most people cannot survive without largesse from the g'mint... And this includes many businesses of all sizes, but especially the large corporations, exacerbated and accelerated by the (now proven behind reasonable doubt) insanity of the lockdowns.

Dragging our country back to productivity, outside of the RE and mining sector, is a pain nobody wants to contemplate. Maybe we won't have to in the near to medium term, but eventually we will.

For the current crop of Libs (with a couple of notable exceptions), this is a bridge Too Far. As a party they are completely incapable, both ideologically and pragmatically, have been unable to lead in this direction.... and the unthinking and self centred plebs unable the even contemplate what inevitability lies in their future

Therefore, we are stuck with the socialists until our economy is FUBAR.

The right will then fix everything, only for the left to fark it all up again.

Rinse
repeat

*And it profoundly disagree that the current Libs are anywhere near right of centre... and this is the problem

The Right will fix everything .

It's the Liberal Party debt that Labor now has to fix up.

It's pretty obvious that it's the electorate that has moved to the Left and the Libs have no idea how to respond to that.

Putting in hard Right people like Dutton dooms them to many years on the crossbenches.

The only way to win government is to look like the majority of the electorate, read the demographic changes and move with the tide.

 

[wayneL]

The Right will fix everything .

It's the Liberal Party debt that Labor now has to fix up.

It's pretty obvious that it's the electorate that has moved to the Left and the Libs have no idea how to respond to that.

Putting in hard Right people like Dutton dooms them to many years on the crossbenches.

The only way to win government is to look like the majority of the electorate, read the demographic changes and move with the tide.

It's what Im saying Horace

The Right will fix everything .

It's the Liberal Party debt that Labor now has to fix up.

It's pretty obvious that it's the electorate that has moved to the Left and the Libs have no idea how to respond to that.

Putting in hard Right people like Dutton dooms them to many years on the crossbenches.

The only way to win government is to look like the majority of the electorate, read the demographic changes and move with the tide.

Okay, I have been taking your post here seriously and thinking deeply about it. I think because of the current Overton window, there is some misapprehension about what being on the right means.

Just like being on the left doesn't necessarily mean that someone is a Soviet or a Bolshevik, being on the right also does not mean that someone is a Fascist or a Nazi.

So, what does being left or right mean in the Australian context... I see from the post to see it very much depends on your point of view, where in the spectrum you are to make that judgement.

I think that apart from the very vocal fringes most thinking people are basically somewhere around the centre. IOW, 95% of us are not very far away from each other, ideologically...

... We are just being played by the show called elite. And they are playing a game of divide and conquer; AHPRA certificate is a matter of propaganda radovan any factual differences. The elite are playing us in a game for that own benefit.

Therefore my overarching point, Horace, is that we should not disregard solutions offered up by the "right" or the "left", rather we should analyse then based on their merits with a fair mind.

Inevitably, there will still be disagreements, but it should understand that itch are coming from a genuine place of trying to better society.

 

[SirRumpole]

Therefore my overarching point, Horace, is that we should not disregard solutions offered up by the "right" or the "left", rather we should analyse then based on their merits with a fair mind.

Absolutely, and what I'm saying is that it's irrelevant using broad definitions such as "The Right" or "The Left" to try and reduce a complex spectrum of beliefs into an absurdly simplistic and non existent quantum.

eg, I myself don't agree with a Constitutional indigenous voice (usually regarded as a position of "The Right") , but I do agree with government ownership of essential services like power infrastructure (usually regarded as a position of "The Left").

So am I Right or Left or just confused ?

 

[wayneL]

Absolutely, and what I'm saying is that it's irrelevant using broad definitions such as "The Right" or "The Left" to try and reduce a complex spectrum of beliefs into an absurdly simplistic and non existent quantum.

eg, I myself don't agree with a Constitutional indigenous voice (usually regarded as a position of "The Right") , but I do agree with government ownership of essential services like power infrastructure (usually regarded as a position of "The Left").

So am I Right or Left or just confused ?

Oh yeah, on these points, in complete agreement.

Maybe I'm confused too.

Or maybe we're just critically thinking to the best of our ability? Like I've said numerous times in the past, maybe we're closer than we both think?

 

[SirRumpole]

Or maybe we're just critically thinking to the best of our ability? Like I've said numerous times in the past, maybe we're closer than we both think?

I'd say we are.

That's bad news for political parties if the rest of the population think that way, because the parties mainly operate out of ideology while the electorate is thinking about practicality and results.

 

[PZ99]

Right now I think both parties are operating more on populism than ideology hence their rank hypocrisy.

 

[sptrawler]

The Right will fix everything .

It's the Liberal Party debt that Labor now has to fix up.

It's pretty obvious that it's the electorate that has moved to the Left and the Libs have no idea how to respond to that.

Putting in hard Right people like Dutton dooms them to many years on the crossbenches.

The only way to win government is to look like the majority of the electorate, read the demographic changes and move with the tide.

You are spot on here, but the issue of debt which was as a result of supporting people through difficult times, is a very socialist initiative.
When Rudd did it during the GFC, he was hailed by the "left" as savior, when a seemingly "right leaning Govt does it, they are derided by the same people, so IMO it just highlights the blind tribalism that prevails today.

I'm with you on Dutton, unfortunately his appearance and demeanour isn't conducive with a benevolent stereotype, I doubt he will be the leader at the next election.
But having said that, there doesn't appear to be many options available in the coalition IMO.

 

[Knobby22]

You are spot on here, but the issue of debt which was as a result of supporting people through difficult times, is a very socialist initiative.
When Rudd did it during the GFC, he was hailed by the "left" as savior, when a seemingly "right leaning Govt does it, they are derided by the same people, so IMO it just highlights the blind tribalism that prevails today.

I'm with you on Dutton, unfortunately his appearance and demeanour isn't conducive with a benevolent stereotype, I doubt he will be the leader at the next election.
But having said that, there doesn't appear to be many options available in the coalition IMO.

Some of the things Frydenburg did were excellent and some less so. It didn't need to be so high.

Quoting Peter Costello:
Canberra's fiscal response to the pandemic, Costello offered a mixed review.

He said "it was warranted to have a fiscal response and to have a strong one" but took aim at one "design flaw" in the Job Keeper program, namely how companies "self-assessed" their losses.

"There were a lot of companies that said, 'oh, well, we think we're going to go down by 30 or 50 per cent [in revenue], they self-assessed and got the government payment," Costello said.

"Some of them got the government payment, even though their revenues went up. So the taxpayer ended up subsidising companies, not who were in trouble, but who were actually profiting during the pandemic."

"Governments normally say, where they've made an overpayment, they claim it back in the next year. But the government didn't do that. And it's estimated something like $27 billion was paid to companies who in fact weren't qualified to receive it."

"The government can ask for it back, it can legislate what's called a clawback," he said.
"The government decided it wouldn't claw it back. Now, that's an obvious design fault. It could have been fixed with legislation. [Instead] $27 billion went out to people who didn't deserve it."

 

[sptrawler]

Some of the things Frydenburg did were excellent and some less so. It didn't need to be so high.

Quoting Peter Costello:
Canberra's fiscal response to the pandemic, Costello offered a mixed review.

He said "it was warranted to have a fiscal response and to have a strong one" but took aim at one "design flaw" in the Job Keeper program, namely how companies "self-assessed" their losses.

"There were a lot of companies that said, 'oh, well, we think we're going to go down by 30 or 50 per cent [in revenue], they self-assessed and got the government payment," Costello said.

"Some of them got the government payment, even though their revenues went up. So the taxpayer ended up subsidising companies, not who were in trouble, but who were actually profiting during the pandemic."

"Governments normally say, where they've made an overpayment, they claim it back in the next year. But the government didn't do that. And it's estimated something like $27 billion was paid to companies who in fact weren't qualified to receive it."

"The government can ask for it back, it can legislate what's called a clawback," he said.
"The government decided it wouldn't claw it back. Now, that's an obvious design fault. It could have been fixed with legislation. [Instead] $27 billion went out to people who didn't deserve it."

Agree completely, but as has been proven over and over, the hardest thing a Government can do is claw back welfare.
I would expect not only companies rorted it, but individuals as well, it would probably be easier to get it back off individuals than companies though, imagine the court cases and the lawyers involved.
With any hobbled together aid package there will be rorting e.g pink batts etc.
I would love to see them chase the money, but I bet there are a myriad of loop holes in the wording of the assistance package that the lawyers would be able to challenge.
But I was just using the example that a support and assistance package, can be seen as a waste of money, or as a wonderful help for the country, depending on who delivered it and who is critiquing it.
Faults can be found in any gesture, if you look hard enough and want to find it.
If they didn't do enough it would have been criticised for putting people on the street, sending businesses bankrupt, people losing their houses etc
If they over did it people would rort it and therefore the Govt gets criticised for doing too much, damned if you do damned if you don't.
But shutting down the country and making people stay home while keeping the economy ticking over, is no small feat and there was no precedent to follow or a how to manual, so IMO it was a pretty amazing feat and if Albo had done it instead of Morrison there would no doubt be a statue built for him.
Just a fickle general public, being told what to think and say, by a headline seeking media IMO.

 

[Knobby22]

Agree completely, but as has been proven over and over, the hardest thing a Government can do is claw back welfare.
I would expect not only companies rorted it, but individuals as well, it would probably be easier to get it back off individuals than companies though, imagine the court cases and the lawyers involved.
With any hobbled together aid package there will be rorting e.g pink batts etc.
I would love to see them chase the money, but I bet there are a myriad of loop holes in the wording of the assistance package that the lawyers would be able to challenge.
But I was just using the example that a support and assistance package, can be seen as a waste of money, or as a wonderful help for the country, depending on who delivered it and who is critiquing it.
Faults can be found in any gesture, if you look hard enough and want to find it.

it would have been easy. The company turnover is in the books and goes through the banks. Most companies would have payed it back if was the law. A few did anyway as a matter of principal which shows great moral strength. Anyway its all history now, just saying they could have done better.
I have great respect for Peter Costello.

 

[sptrawler]

it would have been easy. The company turnover is in the books and goes through the banks. Most companies would have payed it back if was the law. A few did anyway as a matter of principal which shows great moral strength. Anyway its all history now, just saying they could have done better.
I have great respect for Peter Costello.

It will always be done better, if there is a next time, I'm sure it will be much smoother.
Did the companies that rorted the pink batts ever get prosecuted, I don't think so.
Will those who are rorting the NDIS be prosecuted, lets see, apparently that is huge money pit.

ATO chasing hundreds of millions in fraudulent or ineligible JobKeeper, super withdrawal claims

The ATO is chasing those that tried to rort or were overpaid or ineligible for stimulus payments such as JobKeeper.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Knobby22]

It will always be done better, if there is a next time, I'm sure it will be much smoother.
Did the companies that rorted the pink batts ever get prosecuted, I don't think so.
Will those who are rorting the NDIS be prosecuted, lets see, apparently that is huge money pit.

Irrelevant as no company did anything wrong by not handing back the money because they didn't have to.

Pink Batts was a different sort of stuff up. More to do with lack of planning.

I do hope they do take down a few rogues for the NDIS. It seems they have had free rein. Love to see some massive fines handed out.

 

[sptrawler]

Irrelevant as no company did anything wrong by not handing back the money because they didn't have to.

Pink Batts was a different sort of stuff up. More to do with lack of planning.

I do hope they do take down a few rogues for the NDIS. It seems they have had free rein. Love to see some massive fines handed out.

The Government is a slow moving monster and it sometimes takes years to hit back.
From personal experience, I have three examples, one I had to pay back $6k on behalf of my daughter in 2018, for over payments she received in 2012-2015. Which in reality was their fault as she is deaf and they didn't explain the process to her.
Secondly I received a letter and fine, for making a non concessional super contribution several years earlier, as I was in a constitutionally protected scheme it was o.k so it was reversed.
Another time we were on an extended holiday overseas, when we returned we had a letter that we owed the ATO money and it had gone to collections, when I rang them and explained they were actually at fault and they owed us money they said I had to agree to pay it, then I could challenge it, otherwise it couldn't be stopped.
Like I said the Govt and ATO is a slow moving monster and if the Labor Party wanted to it could recover any over payments from the covid era if it so wished, but they don't appear to be pursuing it either.
So is it simple? Who knows, I just try and look at things logically from both sides, not through the media bias.

 

[wayneL]

I'm with you on Dutton, unfortunately his appearance and demeanour isn't conducive with a benevolent stereotype, I doubt he will be the leader at the next election.
But having said that, there doesn't appear to be many options available in the coalition IMO.

And too much of an authoritarian impulse for my liking. And agree that doesn't seem to be any senior Libs with any charisma that could take it on.

i do like Senator Alex Antic though, I think he has possibilities for some time in the future... Gotta get him into the Reps first.

 

[sptrawler]

And too much of an authoritarian impulse for my liking. And agree that doesn't seem to be any senior Libs with any charisma that could take it on.

i do like Senator Alex Antic though, I think he has possibilities for some time in the future... Gotta get him into the Reps first.

IMO it will be interesting to see how Price matures into the senior position she now holds.

 

[Smurf1976]

Absolutely, and what I'm saying is that it's irrelevant using broad definitions such as "The Right" or "The Left" to try and reduce a complex spectrum of beliefs into an absurdly simplistic and non existent quantum.

It's really quite ridiculous that we've come to a point where someone's view on the question of an Aboriginal Voice to parliament is supposedly tied to their understanding of electrical engineering and what sort of car they drive.

That is simply ridiculous but it's what the whole Left versus Right thing amounts to in practical terms.