Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%

  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.9%

  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.8%

  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.9%

  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.2%

  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%
  • Total voters
    196
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I read a day ago LG Chem and GM have announced a Battery build factory to be located in the US.
This is at face value a green field, I'll have to check capacity, but it comes less than a month since Tesla's commitment to battery build factory in Germany/Berlin.
Who'll deliver first product out the gate?
 
orr said:
Who'll deliver first product out the gate?
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I don’t think it matters, when Tesla built their first Giga-factory, it became the largest battery factory in the world, and Elon estimated the world would let at least 100 factories this size.

At the announcement he was asked if this factory would make Tesla dominate the battery market.

He said “No, not at all we need 100 of these things, and Tesla can’t build them all, I encourage other companies to start building factories on this scale, because we will need them”
 
Value Collector said:
I don’t think it matters, when Tesla built their first Giga-factory, it became the largest battery factory in the world, and Elon estimated the world would let at least 100 factories this size.

At the announcement he was asked if this factory would make Tesla dominate the battery market.

He said “No, not at all we need 100 of these things, and Tesla can’t build them all, I encourage other companies to start building factories on this scale, because we will need them”
Click to expand...

I posted this on the Lithium thread a couple of weeks ago (info from Benchmark Minerals):

Of the 102 lithium ion battery megafactories in the pipeline up to 2028:

China: 74
USA: 5
EU: 13
Japan: 6
Korea: 2
Thailand 1
Australia 1
India: 0

This week has brought lots of announcements of JVs and strategic partnerships in EV battery metals including this one:

Screenshot from 2019-12-13 07-13-19.png

Gangfeng (1772.HK) is the major customer for a couple of domestic rock lithium (spodumene) producers (ASX:pLS and ASX:AJM). While Gangfeng's SP has risen 80+% over the past three months, the miners are still at two year lows - along with the lithium price.
 
Mr Jack i've looked at lithium miners back to when Iggy Tan was looking after Galaxy maybe 5yrs+. I'm not seeing where there's going to be a supply pinch that'll cause a dramatic shift in the commodity price of traded spodumene.... Happy to hear argument.
Outwardly the parallel is the way oil supply increases when the price allows higher cost extraction 'tight and tighter oil' to be profitable.
Looks to be the value adding end of the 102 in the pipeline and their supply contacts and/or vertical integration are the multiple 'baggers'. Information easily obtained at right golf and yacht clubs.

@ Humid my business cost of fuel and oil/filters of 60k/kms per year are circa $9.5k.
A roo proof, dent proof, rust proof , Cybertruck dualmotor optioned for self-driving(please let it happen) I can Fully finance on half the fuel and oil cost of the Isuzu NLR. And a tad more comfortable ride.
You can have a guess at where I'm at.
 
orr said:
Mr Jack i've looked at lithium miners back to when Iggy Tan was looking after Galaxy maybe 5yrs+. I'm not seeing where there's going to be a supply pinch that'll cause a dramatic shift in the commodity price of traded spodumene.... Happy to hear argument.
Outwardly the parallel is the way oil supply increases when the price allows higher cost extraction 'tight and tighter oil' to be profitable.
Looks to be the value adding end of the 102 in the pipeline and their supply contacts and/or vertical integration are the multiple 'baggers'. Information easily obtained at right golf and yacht clubs.

@ Humid my business cost of fuel and oil/filters of 60k/kms per year are circa $9.5k.
A roo proof, dent proof, rust proof , Cybertruck dualmotor optioned for self-driving(please let it happen) I can Fully finance on half the fuel and oil cost of the Isuzu NLR. And a tad more comfortable ride.
You can have a guess at where I'm at.
Click to expand...

Yeah mate I live in the present
 
A word of caution
I was reading that articlehttps://thedriven.io/2019/12/15/is-a-diesel-cleaner-than-an-electric-car-in-australia/
The amount of BS and pseudo science is amazing
Comparing apple and orange
Discovering thermal engine release heat duhhh whereas coal power electricity does not...well just maybe he could consider the efficiency of the coal power plant too and the transmission losses and the battery cycle efficiency?
I understand the author wants a specific outcome, but at least a pseudo scientific approach please.
I felt like i was back in a CC debate with @basilio
So has anyone got proper figures in term of CO2 release..as it seems this is the issue, for EV
And anyone including the battery component and life of vehicle aka 500k km diesel vs an EV?
I would be the last to deny EV benefits but that's my problem, on this article as on CC religion, i value science too much to let such BS go unchallenged
 
qldfrog said:
Read the readers comments as well at the end.. Does even the choice of a car has to become a religion?
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It's infuriating that Energy is seen as political, or religious in any way.....like if you are 'right wing' or conservative, you have to love coal. Why would you care so much about where your power comes from? Can't you leave that to the experts? If you don't care about environmental impact, that's your prerogative...so then what matters? That it's not too expensive and that the lights come on. OK....well it doesn't have to be coal to tick those boxes.

Likewise with cars, some people are DESPERATE to criticise EVs. Like, because it isn't absolutely zero emissions then it's something to be denigrated and written off. Can't we just determine the facts and judge it on it's merits??

If an EV drives past, guess what, ZERO emissions will spew out into the atmosphere around you. Drive through the Burnley tunnel with your windows down, and breathe in! Then tell me you don't believe EVs aren't important.
 
Junior said:
It's infuriating that Energy is seen as political, or religious in any way.....like if you are 'right wing' or conservative, you have to love coal. Why would you care so much about where your power comes from? Can't you leave that to the experts? If you don't care about environmental impact, that's your prerogative...so then what matters? That it's not too expensive and that the lights come on. OK....well it doesn't have to be coal to tick those boxes.

Likewise with cars, some people are DESPERATE to criticise EVs. Like, because it isn't absolutely zero emissions then it's something to be denigrated and written off. Can't we just determine the facts and judge it on it's merits??

If an EV drives past, guess what, ZERO emissions will spew out into the atmosphere around you. Drive through the Burnley tunnel with your windows down, and breathe in! Then tell me you don't believe EVs aren't important.
Click to expand...
No problem with that Junior but i drive open roads or at the back of my block, what does matter is the global impact not the local microparticle levels
So why can not this guy do a proper work?
Is that so hard?
And what do you think it tells you when reading such a biased crappy so called report:
What is he hiding?
China favours EV for the reason you state, but overall for the planet i doubt it is that good there...
Yet when living in hk or Shenzhen, you are really thankful.i am.
So exactly what i say: should it be a religion, why can we not use real engineering and science, why do we have to be fed BS after BS just because the aim is a nice one?
On EV, on CC?
It is a very dangerous slide into authoritarianism that many scientists and definitively the media have taken
You remember the saying religion is the opium of the people
Religion was used to control people, avoid revolts and rebellion, in short, probably very good overall
So should we favour obscurantism for the common good?
By many aspect this is what is behind the CC and by extension EV and energy so called debate..i say so called as there is not much debate, just 2 streams of affirmations and fake news each with their lobbies
 
Junior said:
Can't we just determine the facts and judge it on it's merits??
Click to expand...
Fully agree on this one
Where it does matter is if you start giving subsidies and chose a winner, you want to make sure you are not favoring a wrong option.
Should our tax dollars subsidise EV or a Snowy III, etc
Yes it does matter
You have a taxi, drive inner city: i doubt you can better EV there
You use a ute, and are a farmer..should you buy Elon mad Max truck? I doubt
And a Prius or a Tesla for a suburban mum ?
 
qldfrog said:
Discovering thermal engine release heat duhhh whereas coal power electricity does not...well just maybe he could consider the efficiency of the coal power plant too and the transmission losses and the battery cycle efficiency?
Click to expand...

You are right that you have to include the efficiency of the power plant and transmission system when looking at an EV, However you are also forgetting that equivalent things also should be included in Diesel and petrol car calculations.

For example,

If you are going to try to make the EV look less efficient by mentioning energy losses at Coal Power Plants, you should really also be mentioning that Oil Refineries suffer equally huge energy losses, and if you want to include energy losses of the electric transmission grid, you should really also be mentioning the energy losses of transporting the oil and diesel around the globe in tanker ships, trucks and pipes.

Also, people that want to paint EV's as less efficient because of coal plants are not just forgetting to mention their diesel refining and distribution inefficiency, they also are generally ignoring the multiple ways that renewable electricity sources are charging cars, As I have said my car is almost 100% solar powered, this is super low impact, the energy goes straight from my roof and into the car, no transmission losses etc
 
I'd chug about 500km every 2-3 days. Whats it cost in electricity if I charge overnight?
Whats the wait time on parts if it breaks down?

These are the only things I really give a crap about.
 
Of course, an economy-wide Carbon Tax would resolve all these issues - and many others - but I would never suggest such a thing.
 
moXJO said:
I'd chug about 500km every 2-3 days. Whats it cost in electricity if I charge overnight?
Whats the wait time on parts if it breaks down? and there is a lot less servicing.

These are the only things I really give a crap about.
Click to expand...

If you are charging from an off peak circuit, your cost will be equivalent to you purchasing petrol at 25 cents per litre.

I guess it depends what breaks, but EV’s have a lot less parts that break down, Tesla is so confident that every car comes with free road side assistance for life, but I wouldn’t be worried about break downs any more than you would be by a petrol car
 
moXJO said:
I'd chug about 500km every 2-3 days. Whats it cost in electricity if I charge overnight?
Whats the wait time on parts if it breaks down?

These are the only things I really give a crap about.
Click to expand...

also on top of my answer to you above, AGL have a $1 per day charging plan, unlimited charging for $1 per day.
 
Jack Aubrey said:
Of course, an economy-wide Carbon Tax would resolve all these issues - and many others - but I would never suggest such a thing.
Click to expand...
True but when both the coalition and labour agreed to do that, it got destroyed by the Greens.
Politics at its worst..well done the Greens...
I will never forget that..
A carbon tax working as the GST AND imposed on imports as well is a great way to go toward sustainability, and an indirect way to promote EV when it makes sense
 
qldfrog said:
No problem with that Junior but i drive open roads or at the back of my block, what does matter is the global impact not the local microparticle levels
So why can not this guy do a proper work?
Is that so hard?
And what do you think it tells you when reading such a biased crappy so called report:
What is he hiding?
China favours EV for the reason you state, but overall for the planet i doubt it is that good there...
Yet when living in hk or Shenzhen, you are really thankful.i am.
So exactly what i say: should it be a religion, why can we not use real engineering and science, why do we have to be fed BS after BS just because the aim is a nice one?
On EV, on CC?
It is a very dangerous slide into authoritarianism that many scientists and definitively the media have taken
You remember the saying religion is the opium of the people
Religion was used to control people, avoid revolts and rebellion, in short, probably very good overall
So should we favour obscurantism for the common good?
By many aspect this is what is behind the CC and by extension EV and energy so called debate..i say so called as there is not much debate, just 2 streams of affirmations and fake news each with their lobbies
Click to expand...

All valid points. It's not black and white. As we have both agreed on, there is so much bias in this debate it makes it very hard for the average punter out there to interpret and make an informed decision.

One thing I do believe to be true, is that technology surrounding EVs...ie. battery and charging tech is advancing so rapidly, that at some stage it will be a no-brainer for the majority of Aussies. Of course, something like Hydrogen powered-vehicles could come in and supersede, which is also great.

Do you remember mini-discs? They were going to kill CDs, then MP3 players and iPods came in and changed everything.

Likewise for NBN...it was superior tech when it was first announced, now we'll have 5G coming and changing the game.

One thing for sure, internal-combustion vehicles have served us well, but they are on the way out.
 
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