Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 21.8%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 39.6%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 37 18.8%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 25 12.7%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.1%

  • Total voters
    197
The European automotive industry is in a lot of pain. And the Albanes labor government think that they can force create a renewables industry when they can't even support our last wind tower manufacturer

Setback for Europe’s battery ambitions as Northvolt files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection

European battery company Northvolt has filed for Chapter 11 ‘reorganisation’ bankruptcy in the US, which it said will allow it to restructure its debt to continue scaling the business.

Northvolt is Europe’s most-funded homegrown lithium-ion battery company and has attempted to set up manufacturing and battery material projects across the continent and North America, but has struggled to scale up production and has neared the end of its cash reserves.

The Chapter 11 process, announced last week (21 November) will allow it to access US$145 million in cash collateral and US$100 million of debtor-in-possession (DIP) financing, and it will seek new investment opportunities from strategic and financial investors, as well as existing lenders, shareholders and customers. It was filed in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of Texas.

CEO Peter Carlsson, who co-founded the company in 2016, will step down as CEO while remaining as member of the board and a senior advisor. The firm was set up amidst a political push by Europe to establish its own electric vehicle (EV) battery industry to reduce reliance on China, which dominates the market.

The big three macro-economic challenges the company has faced are higher interest rates, an EV demand slowdown and increased competition from US and China, while commentators have blamed its management for a slow scale-up in battery production, which has seen it lose agreements with EV manufacturers.

Its three largest shareholders are automotive OEMs Volkswagen and BMW and investment bank Goldman Sachs, but its shareholder base is large and varied and includes Swedish state-owned power generation firm Vattenfall, engineering firm ABB, large vehicle OEM Scania as well as pension funds.

The company reportedly needs another US$1 billion to continue its business long-term. It currently has around 7,000 employees.

Non-core businesses sold or closed down including ESS unit​

The company will continue to make deliveries to customers and pay wages to employees and operations are continuing at its flagship battery gigafactory in Skellefteå, Sweden, Northvolt Ett, and its Northvolt Labs in Västerås.

Northvolt primarily targeted the EV battery segment, with its first big customer being Scania, but has also entered the ESS space with a facility in Poland.

However the firm’s numerous non-cell projects are now on hold or being divested, following a strategic review this year from which it decided to sharpen its focus to battery cell production only.

In August, it closed a US project aimed at manufacturing high-performance lithium metal cells, via subsidiary Cuberg, and that site in California was recently acquired by lithium-sulfur battery startup Lyten Energy. The company has also sold or closed down its cathode active material (CAM) facilities in Sweden and will instead buy CAM from established suppliers.

Meanwhile, the company has shut down its energy storage system (ESS) assembly plant in Poland after failing to find a buyer for the business, which has 281 employees, and it will now seek a buyer for the physical factory. A separate Northvolt business based in Poland and Sweden, under the same Northvolt Systems subsidiary, which manufactures ESS units for industrial applications will now enter a sales process. Around 600 employees are employed by Northvolt Systems in total.

Northvolt’s VP communications discussed its stuttered scale-up in an interview with Energy-storage.news in March 2024 (Premium access).

‘Setback for Europe’s EV battery ambitions’​

The news has provoked strong debate in the battery industry, including on business networking site LinkedIn.

Some have pointed the finger at the company’s management team and various decisions including choosing to launch projects covering the spectrum of battery cell manufacturing (in several markets), CAM production, recycling, ESS assembly and new battery technology research, before it had mastered cell production in its first facility.

Others have attributed the company’s struggles to the wider macroeconomic factors mentioned before, particularly the staggering capacity expansion and price falls coming from China’s lithium-ion battery industry, which dominates the market. Some in that camp still praise Carlsson and Northvolt for establishing Europe’s EV battery ambitions, even if Northvolt is not the one that goes on to lead the charge.

Henry Sanderson, executive editor at battery materials research publisher Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, called the news a “setback for Europe’s ambitions to build a homegrown electric vehicle battery producer to compete with China”.

A few years ago, the European battery ecosystem looked healthy with huge forecasted manufacturing capacity and billions being poured in from investors. However, since then the US has given a huge boost to its domestic battery industry with highly generous tax incentives for clean energy manufacturing, and prices from China have fallen more than anyone had forecasted.

Benchmark estimates that the costs of battery production are 29% higher in Europe than in China.

“‘Go big or go home’ was Northvolt’s initial mantra, which makes sense for the climate transition – yet the cost benefits of scale only come once initial production is mastered,” Anderson added.

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The company’s flagship battery gigafactory in Sweden, Northvolt Ett. Image: Northvolt.
 
Awesome news. I love our Model Y LR (should have gone the performance), but my technology challenged wife loves it more.

Looks like i'll be getting a bargain on our second EV.

Or might just buy a Model 3 Performance to really piss off the Elon haters :D
I also have my eyes on a Model Y LR.
Do you have any stats on the amount of power used per 100KM's at highway speeds (100 or 110)?
I desperately need range not performance.
Mick
 
The outgoing Biden administration have thrown EV maker Rivian a lifeline by chucking in 6billion to finish an EV factory in Georgia.
From ENERGY .GOV
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THE project had been shelved back in March in an effort to cust the mounting losses.
It remains to be seen whether the investment is ill founded or not.
Below are the annual sales for Rivian (Pickup and SUV combined) .
It would appear they may have plateued.
Some stats from Care Edge

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Either way they are minuscule compared to the sales of teslas.
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Mick
 
I also have my eyes on a Model Y LR.
Do you have any stats on the amount of power used per 100KM's at highway speeds (100 or 110)?
I desperately need range not performance.
Mick
Not really sorry. But my wife is heading down south on Friday, I will get back to you.

We didnt really need the range, I just wanted it for the extra speed. I am not a car person, drove a 2012 Rav for the last 10 years, but I love pulling out of round abouts a bit quick (up to the speed limit) but not having a car making heaps of noise.

I was going to get the performance, but there was a price drop on the LR and no performance which made it a bit to hard to justify.

If BTC keeps pumping, I might get acceleration boost package haha
 
Came across this on another forum. Its a response from one of BYDs graphite suppliers to a demand for a further 10% cut in prices by the supplier from Jan 1 2025

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I had a bit of range anxiety over the weekend, more of a joke between me and family rather than fear.

Last Friday morning we had to drive up to our investment apartment on the coast. left in the morning with 98% charge, drove 350km there and back, got changed and then had to go to the city for dinner with sister and brother in-law that work in the city, they catch the bus in from the outer suburbs, so we dropped them off home 60km round trip. When we got home at about 12am, we forgot to plug in the Tesla.
Next day the available charge was at 14%, and my wife had errands to do with the Tesla. late afternoon I managed to plug it in but only for a 20km top up charge before my wife had to go on another errand.
That night we had an industry, Gala Dinner; I picked up work colleague and the four of us drove into the city on 10 % charge.
We arrived home with 6% to spare.

The reason that I wasn't too concerned was because we were in a built-up area, and I have roadside assist. I also know that the smart EVs will start shutting down accessories to save energy to increase range, but we did not get to that stage.

Saturday night, or Sunday morning, about 12-12:30am I plugged in the Tesla. At 10:30am we went to the shops, and did not plug the car back in until 8:30pm. Because we haven't got a dedicated charger and only use the supplied 10A unit, the charge top-up this morning was at 60% before unplugging and using it. But that is more than enough for local driving, and if we wanted, could drive it for the week without plugging in again.

We completed a total of 475km on one charge, with 6% remaining.

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EV sales for the year so far.
Most have seen a fall off in sales from June thru to November.
From the Driven

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Vehicle sales in general have been lower for five out of the last six months MOM, so it is not just EV's sales that are falling.
Mick
 
Anyone wanting a Cybertruck in Australia will have to wait a few years.

Musk said costs and regulation were why the Cybertruck, priced from about $US80,000, will be a US-only vehicle for the time being.
“We did design the car to North American requirements, because if you start going with a superset of all international requirements, it forces a lot of constraints on the Cybertruck that would make the product, frankly, worse,” Musk told investors in June.
“So I think we’ll need to make a special version that is, for example, China-compliant or Europe-compliant.
“But it really doesn’t make sense to add that complexity until we’ve achieved a higher-volume production on the Cybertruck. There’s still a lot of work to do on driving costs down for the Cybertruck. The level of difficulty of going from, say, a prototype…to production…is 100 times harder, and then once you reach production, to improve the price by 20 per cent, like, the cost of goods by 20 per cent, is harder than reaching production in the first place.”

Why Tesla’s Cybertruck won’t be sold in Australia soon despite rolling up at Bunnings

Call it a tease. Tesla is showing off its polarising Cybertruck across Australia, including driving it to a Bunnings store this week where it took up two parking spots.
The vehicle has been in Australia since about April, under dealer registration plates.

It was seen in Sydney around then, Western Australia and more recently at a vintage car event in South Australia. But the exact itinerary for the electric truck – which was developed after Elon Musk’s son Saxon asked “why doesn’t the future look like the future?” – continues to surprise, with Telsa giving little away.
One thing we do know is that it won’t be arriving in any Australian garages soon.

Despite “touring” the Cybertruck across Australia and New Zealand, Tesla has no plans to sell the 5.6 metre-long, 2.4-metre wide vehicle locally. Although Musk says it may be able to certify it in some international markets next year.

Bunnings was able to piggyback off the showcase and light up social media to promote its foray into electric vehicle chargers and accessories.

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Musk said costs and regulation were why the Cybertruck, priced from about $US80,000, will be a US-only vehicle for the time being

But cutting production costs on the Cybertruck – which is wrapped in stainless steel, with its body panels, according to Musk, can resist small arms fire (or at least remove driver anxiety over paint chips) – has proven challenging.

Musk said costs and regulation were why the Cybertruck, priced from about $US80,000, will be a US-only vehicle for the time being.

“We did design the car to North American requirements, because if you start going with a superset of all international requirements, it forces a lot of constraints on the Cybertruck that would make the product, frankly, worse,” Musk told investors in June.

“So I think we’ll need to make a special version that is, for example, China-compliant or Europe-compliant.

“But it really doesn’t make sense to add that complexity until we’ve achieved a higher-volume production on the Cybertruck. There’s still a lot of work to do on driving costs down for the Cybertruck. The level of difficulty of going from, say, a prototype…to production…is 100 times harder, and then once you reach production, to improve the price by 20 per cent, like, the cost of goods by 20 per cent, is harder than reaching production in the first place.”

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A Tesla Cybertruck parked at Bunnings at Caloundra in Queensland to promote the hardware chain's foray into electric vehicle charges and accessories. Picture: Reddit

Musk described this process in searching for costs a “mega pain”. To be frank, it’s not the funnest job in the world. Like chiselling pennies is not … it’s like washing the dishes, frankly, like wash a lot of dishes here,” he said.

“It’s super fun to make prototypes. That’s really fun and it’s kind of cool to get, it’s pretty cool to get the production going. Then the cost of production is a grind. That is like, you know, it’s hard work.

“You know, there’s some reward to it. Like the sort of a reward to washing the dishes, I guess. You have clean dishes. But that is a tough … so, that’s real hard work.

Despite the challenges, Musk said Tesla might be able to certify it for other markets “sometime next year”.

Bunnings director of merchandise Cam Rist said the Cybertruck was at the hardware chain’s Caloundra store on the Sunshine Coast as part of a Tesla “activation” of a new EV accessory and charging range launch.

Mr Rist said Bunnings was the first major retailer outside of the US/Canada to partner with Tesla on these products, which includes the Tesla Powerwall battery.

“We’re launching a range of electric vehicle chargers and accessories across selected stores to make it easier for our customers to own and maintain EVs,” he said.

“The range, which includes wall-mounted EV charges that can be installed in customers’ homes, is currently being rolled out to 40 pilot stores across Australia in a phased approach.”

“We know the EV market is growing rapidly in Australia and we’re pleased to be making these products more accessible to customers at an affordable price, which have been traditionally hard to find in retail stores.”

Back in the US, a judge has rejected Musk’s multibillion-dollar pay package, upholding an earlier ruling, plunging Tesla’s board into more uncertainty over how to compensate its superstar chief executive for a decade of work.

Delaware judge Kathaleen McCormick rescinded the entire pay package – now worth over $US100bn ($155.62bn) based on Monday’s closing share price – and said Tesla’s board, led by Australian Robyn Denholm – misled investors.

Denholm says the board is considering alternatives but told CNBC “none of them are as good from a shareholder perspective”.

Musk has been hailed as a visionary. He has become an influential figure in Donald Trump’s incoming administration, heading a new Department of Government Efficiency, and plans to save the US federal budget “at least $US2 trillion” as he adopts his ruthless management style on America’s public service.
 
Can't imagine why anyone in OZ would want a Cybertruck.
But I am sure there is someone out there with sufficient ego and money to prove me wrong.
Mick
 
Can't imagine why anyone in OZ would want a Cybertruck.
But I am sure there is someone out there with sufficient ego and money to prove me wrong.
Mick

Same reason someone would want a Ferrari, or a classic car that is useless as an everyday car, or Harley Davidson.

It’s called choice and individuality.
 
Interesting comparison:
40y old 205 petrol having done 145000km
Vs tesla 84 kwh battery
In France where co2 per kwh is not too bad due to nuclear
The 205 will have emitted 16 tons C02 on the 40y long lifetime
The Tesla mostly thru the battery building cost, And with the need for 4 to 5 batteries will have produced 85t of co2
Sure sure not same car, etc. But unless yiu fully charge on solar, your EV will most probably produce more co2 than many other cars.
The 205 was consuming 4.8 l per 100km so hybrids would do even better.
EV are not the answer to reducing overall CO2..not that we should care but that is the crusade
 
Interesting comparison:
40y old 205 petrol having done 145000km
Vs tesla 84 kwh battery
In France where co2 per kwh is not too bad due to nuclear
The 205 will have emitted 16 tons C02 on the 40y long lifetime
The Tesla mostly thru the battery building cost, And with the need for 4 to 5 batteries will have produced 85t of co2
Sure sure not same car, etc. But unless yiu fully charge on solar, your EV will most probably produce more co2 than many other cars.
The 205 was consuming 4.8 l per 100km so hybrids would do even better.
EV are not the answer to reducing overall CO2..not that we should care but that is the crusade

So you are comparing it to a car that only drove 3,000km over its life?

Most petrol cars do a lot more that 3000 kms per year, and don’t last 40 years.

Obviously the battery emits more carbon during its production, but every km drive. Closes that gap, and most cars do a lot more than 140,000km over 40 years.

Not to mention that when their batteries are recycled, the second generation batteries will be much lower carbon.
 
SAIC, the parent company of MG ,are planning on releasing a new vehicle that has two radical features.
A 10,000 km's range and a solid state battery.
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Mick
 
SAIC, the parent company of MG ,are planning on releasing a new vehicle that has two radical features.
A 10,000 km's range and a solid state battery.
View attachment 189206
Mick
It will be great when we actually start seeing these cars, rather than just hearing the hype.

From the figures of 123.7kWh battery doing 1,000km, that isn't much better energy density than the current Li ion batteries, hopefully they are lighter and smaller packs.

My car has a 64kW battery and 500km is achievable in perfect conditions, so unless the pack size is considerably smaller or lighter, it isn't earth shattering news.
 
It will be great when we actually start seeing these cars, rather than just hearing the hype.

From the figures of 123.7kWh battery doing 1,000km, that isn't much better energy density than the current Li ion batteries, hopefully they are lighter and smaller packs.

My car has a 64kW battery and 500km is achievable in perfect conditions, so unless the pack size is considerably smaller or lighter, it isn't earth shattering news.
It is ,
Solid state battery,,
So longevity , no crazy fire risk, no need to to write off the whole car for a small bang in a car park and speed charging
 
It is ,
Solid state battery,,
So longevity , no crazy fire risk, no need to to write off the whole car for a small bang in a car park and speed charging
Yes we have been hearing about the solid state batteries for quite some time, it is sounding like SMR's, just around the corner.
 
I am not anti EV ( i will buy one at some stage ) , i am not anti TSLA . I just cant be bothered talking to zealots . savvy . Now run along

Sorry but can't help myself, when people are rude and dismissive to other opinions. And that includes those that support you with love emojis. There is no need to belittle other people's opinions, especially when hiding behind a username on a forum.


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