Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 10 5.1%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 22.1%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 78 40.0%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 36 18.5%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 24 12.3%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 14 7.2%

  • Total voters
    195
Here's something different.
A driver in the UK says he was kidnapped by his MG EV.
From The Daily Mail

Mr Morrison said: 'I realised something was wrong when I was coming up to a roundabout and went to slow down but it failed to do so. Then I heard a loud grinding noise that sounded like brake pads. Because it was such a new car I knew it couldn't be a problem with them.

'I managed to get around the roundabout going at about 30mph, and then had a long road ahead of me, so I assumed it would stop without me accelerating but it didn't.

'I have mobility issues, so I couldn't even jump out - I was completely trapped inside the car going at 30mph.

'It might not sound like it is very fast, but when you have no control over the speed and you're completely stuck inside it's terrifying.'

M Morrison initially called his wife in a panic to ask her to come out and warn cars ahead of him that he was unable to stop.​


After realising that he would soon have to navigate traffic lights and several roundabouts - and worried about crashing into pedestrians and pub-goers - he called 999.

'The car was just running away on its own, there was nothing I could do,' he said.

'When I dialled 999, they sent police to help and put some engineers on the line to try and solve the problem, and they were asking if it was a self-driving car.

'It was the first time that the call handlers had experienced the issue, and they had no idea what to do.

'So eventually three police vehicles arrived and were driving in front of me and behind me.

'I was 100% concentrating on my steering, so when a police van pulled up beside me and asked if I was Brian and if I was okay, I just yelled 'No I'm not, I can't stop'.'

Police initially told Mr Morrison to throw his electronic key through their van window before driving off - but this failed to disengage the engine.

They told him to try different ways of turning off the car, but these failed.
Eventually, they told Mr Morrison to deliberately drive into the back of their van before he got into a more built-up area.

Mr Morrison said: 'After trying to shut the car down, my entire dashboard lit up with faults, and then it all went away after a second and just had a big red car symbol that said 'drive safely, stop driving immediately' or something.

'I came up to a roundabout, which slowed the car down to about 15mph, and the police van was waiting for me on the other side.
I went into the back of the van while it was moving, before they put on the brakes to stop me.

'After that, a police officer jumped into my car and did something which seemed to keep the car still.

'After I got out though, they tried moving their van and the car kept going - so they had to sit with the van there for ages until the RAC got there.

'I still have no idea what happened, but when the RAC [mechanic] got to me about three hours later he plugged in the car to do a diagnostic check and there were pages of faults.

'He said he had never seen anything like it, and decided he was not willing to turn the engine on to see what was wrong.'

Not sure how I would act in such a situation.
Not that i want to find out.
Mick
 
Here's something different.
A driver in the UK says he was kidnapped by his MG EV.
From The Daily Mail



Not sure how I would act in such a situation.
Not that i want to find out.
Mick

That is very odd.

Has MG notified owners of the possible danger?

Has there been a recall?

Why didn't the hydraulic brake system work?

The brakes are independent of the electrical system, same principle as an ICEV

I'm keen to here more about this one. Not so keen of MG :-(

"The decision was made by police after 15 minutes, instructing me to crash into back of one of the police vans.."

I believe that this happened several days ago. Any damage to the front from mounting a round-a-bout and a police vehicle appear to have been completely repaired.


7-Mr_Morrison_with_the_MG_ZS_EV-a-22_1696407028888.jpg


1696473613986.png

tn[%2FB]=-UK-R
 
** Because it was such a new car I knew it couldn't be a problem with them. **
that was a brave assumption , just because it is new doesn't preclude things coming loose

happy to hear the driver get out alive .. 30 miles per hour through a busy intersection can be just as fatal as stopped at a wet intersection
 
We just bought a new car and we went ice.
Swapped the fancy mx5 roadster for an MG zst. Practicality and reducing asset risks in case of recession
Happy so far.
Between now 100% proof that any warming if any is not CO2 related..removing ethical reason, it was back to value for money.
Spent equivalent of $27k...far far less with good trade in, 7y warranty and fixed price services, not hard to make a decision.
All the driving assisting fct a bit too much..I need to learn this
I will try to build an EV farm buggy..when I have time...
That would make sense
 
** Because it was such a new car I knew it couldn't be a problem with them. **
that was a brave assumption , just because it is new doesn't preclude things coming loose

happy to hear the driver get out alive .. 30 miles per hour through a busy intersection can be just as fatal as stopped at a wet intersection
I wonder if these are teething problems that are a result of manufacturers having to comply with the new EU rules that are due in 2025, where all new cars have to be fitted with speed limit recognition and active speed control functions? When developing new control systems there are a lot of issues that were never accounted for in the design stages, you can only think of so many permutations when writing the code and the control can only respond to what code is written. When something out of the ordinary happens, problems follow, ATM computers can't reason out a problem.
Tesla have been developing their self driving software for a long time and even they have issues, so christ knows the problems a relatively new entrant to the game is going to face.

I have seen some mind blowing issues happen when a distributive control system was retrofitted to an old power station, so I'm sure as these safety initiatives are introduced where the car takes over control from the driver this wont be the last of the incidents. Lol
 
That is very odd.

Has MG notified owners of the possible danger?

Has there been a recall?

Why didn't the hydraulic brake system work?

The brakes are independent of the electrical system, same principle as an ICEV

I'm keen to here more about this one. Not so keen of MG :-(

"The decision was made by police after 15 minutes, instructing me to crash into back of one of the police vans.."

I believe that this happened several days ago. Any damage to the front from mounting a round-a-bout and a police vehicle appear to have been completely repaired.


View attachment 163563


View attachment 163561

tn[%2FB]=-UK-R


Looks like the same model I'm in the middle of a road trip in (from northern Thailand to mid eastern Thailand). Hopefully I don't get kidnapped and have to smash a cop car!

Interesting experience actually, I've done a huge amount of road tripping (over 100,000KM in the last two years alone and don't ask how much in total over several countries) and while I can see the benefits of them for people who commute within cities, have been sceptical about their application for people like myself doing what I do. I'd actually never driven an EV until this current road trip. It's less than a month old, pretty unremarkable to drive (a little different from an ICE auto, but not radically, just considering the driving experience I'd much prefer my 20 year old manual Subaru back in Australia). About a 350km range though I wouldn't want to push the limit, and less than an hour to charge at a fast charging station. The charge time impresses and surprises me, though this evening the reality hit hard, we planned to go to a nice restaurant as we usually would, but needing the car charged first thing in the morning, and with few charging locations available, we ended up having to eat something microwaved out of the fridge at the servo convenience store for dinner, which was absolutely terrible. Unfortunately the resort where we're staying doesn't have any charging facilities. Range anxiety is definitely an issue, we have to check the map carefully to make sure we'll be able to get to various things and back to the next charging station, and there are a few issues like the headlights being utterly terrible, aircon being weak (I'd say first world problems if I was in a first world country or the car was owned by a national of one), heater being garbage not that it's an issue here (presumably all engineered that way to save energy).

I can imagine this being much less of an issue in the future when charging stations are everywhere and the technology allows charging even more quickly, and quite likely it will be common for restaurants and entertainment etc to be associated with charging facilities so you aren't stuck waiting around eating nuked rice for dinner. For now anyone wanting to do road trips would be much better off with an ICE and you'd only road trip in an EV as a novelty or because you were a diehard EV enthusiast or supporter for whatever reason, but I can see them being a decent option in the future with various types of improvements which will presumably come over the next 5-10 years.

Earlier this year I spent a few months at a very remote roadhouse in Western Australia, about 300km from the nearest fuel or shop of any kind and was surprised to see a few EVs making it through that stretch (no fast charging facility so you were either there all day or staying the night), but with a proper setup it wouldn't be a bad opportunity to take a break and have a meal.

As an aside, today I was sitting on 90 while not quite sure of the limit, then right about the same time I realised the limit was 60 and saw a cop coming up behind me, closing the gap. Being unlicensed in a foreign country while speeding, my heart rate and cortisol levels jumped, I slowed to about 75 getting ready to pull over and come up with a plan, then when the cop overtook me and continued on I realised I'd been back in Australia for so long I had forgotten the culture here and let out a laugh of relief as I recalled many much more absurd incidents from road trips out here and considered that back when I was spending most of my time in Asia I wouldn't have had any concern at all :p The ridiculous lockdowns etc kept me stuck in Australia for long enough to forget what the rest of the world was like!
Oh, and if anyone from the Thai government is reading this, it's an entirely fictional story, it actually happened in Myanmar or Malaysia, I wasn't the one driving, this isn't Sdaji, it's someone else who hacked or borrowed his account and my name is Fred.
 
This guy sums up where the scalability of the EV's and practicability of the idea of making ICE engined vehicles obsolete by 20230 comes into play.
The expose on the Rivian is just an added bonus.

Mick

This video was very similar to my experience. The car itself was pleasant to drive, there were a few odd non critical glitches and the settings were a hassle due to being overly electronic as opposed to intuitive and manual like older vehicles, and the biggest issue was getting to charging stations which were functioning.

The annoyance of waiting 45 minutes or so to refuel the car really did get to be frustrating after the first couple of times, as did the lack of charging locations. Doing the final charge of the trip was particularly annoying. The preferred brand was out of order so we had to use the other, which needs to be done via a mobile app, and someone else had booked the spot so despite them not turning up we had to wait until their time slot expired. Usually that brand requires a reconconfirm and restart every 15 minutes, but for some reason it just kept on charging this time which at first we were happy about, but then it wouldn't discontinue charging. The machine couldn't stop it, the mobile app returned a 'failed to stop charging' message every time we tried to tell it to stop, and when the vehicle was at 99% I had to hit the emergency stop button so I could safely disconnect the vehicle, although the machine and the app both said charging was still ongoing, which I knew wasn't the case because I had not only physically disconnected from the charging station, I had driven hundreds of kilometres away and it was the following morning. The customer support line just left us on hold, perhaps tomorrow they'll be able to sort the issue out. I'm guessing that station is still out of order and unavailable for others because it still thinks it's charging the car I was driving.

On the plus side, a full charge gave about 350km of driving and in Australian dollars cost around $14 at a fast charger or much cheaper slow charging at home, which blew my mind. We drove up a steep mountain yesterday and I got a big kick out of adding 10% back to the battery by allowing the dynamo to engage on the way back down (the previous day I added a percent or two here or there going down hills, the first time was from 49% to 50% which put it from the yellow state back into the green, which was so satisfying).

All things considered, definitely not worth it from a practical sense even considering cheaper fuel cost and lower maintenance. I got lucky but the potential to become stranded if a charging station is out of order and you don't have a second option is very real. If you don't care about total money spent or having to pay so much of the overall cost upfront, and you are only going to be driving within a charge's distance from home on any given day, then it is likely a good option, but otherwise I'd definitely be hanging back a few years before considering buying an EV... and I say that as someone with most of his money in lithium... because plenty of people are super keen to jump on the EV game even if it's not the most practical option. If the television says you're a good person and care about the environment if you buy an EV, many people will completely overlook the reality of the situation and gleefully take the opportunity to spend money for the excuse to pat themselves on the back.
 
All things considered, definitely not worth it from a practical sense even considering cheaper fuel cost and lower maintenance. I got lucky but the potential to become stranded if a charging station is out of order and you don't have a second option is very real. If you don't care about total money spent or having to pay so much of the overall cost upfront, and you are only going to be driving within a charge's distance from home on any given day, then it is likely a good option, but otherwise I'd definitely be hanging back a few years before considering buying an EV... and I say that as someone with most of his money in lithium... because plenty of people are super keen to jump on the EV game even if it's not the most practical option. If the television says you're a good person and care about the environment if you buy an EV, many people will completely overlook the reality of the situation and gleefully take the opportunity to spend money for the excuse to pat themselves on the back.

“All things considered, definitely not worth it from a practical sense even considering cheaper fuel cost and lower maintenance.”

I’m the opposite, the $2000+ in fuel savings, not including maintenance savings, has been handy for me. I have been investing those savings.

Three years of ownership and I have not spent a cent on maintenance, add the approximate of $2000 per year in fuel savings and my investment account is looking a lot healthier than if I was driving an ICEV. Though I do have the benefit of being able to access some free charging.

Maybe my luck has been that I have only driven my EV around Australia, rather than overseas.

The 30 to 45 minute charge time doesn’t bother me, because I’m usually using that time for a toilet break, or to grab a snack or coffee, or just to take the time to look around the town.

Each to their own 😊

IMG_1936.jpg
 
Europe: Plug-In Car Share Surged To 30% In August 2023

The Tesla Model Y far outpaced other rechargeable cars, strengthening its position at the top.​

In August, plug-in electric car sales in Europe increased quite noticeably, reaching the highest market share so far this year.

According to EV Volumes data, shared by Jose Pontes, in August, 270,356 new plug-in electric cars were registered in Europe, about 68 percent more than a year ago. That's about 30 percent of the total volume.

The all-electric car segment expanded even quicker with a surge of 106 percent year-over-year to almost 200,000 units, taking more than one-fifth of the market (22 percent). That's about three times more than in the United States.

Plug-in car registrations for the month:

  • BEVs: *198,000 (up 106%) and 22% market share
  • PHEVs: *72,000 and 8% market share
  • Total: 270,356 (up 68%) and 30% market share

Plug-In Electric Car Sales In Europe – August 2023​


AA1hQ6hb.jpg

So far this year, more than 1.9 million passenger plug-in electric cars have been registered in Europe, which is about 23 percent of the total market.

Plug-in car registrations year-to-date:

  • BEVs: *1.28 million and 15% market share
  • PHEVs: *0.64 million and 8% market share
  • Total: 1,945,828 (up 35%) and 23% market share
* estimated from the market share

Top Plug-In Models
The Tesla Model Y noted a very strong month with 21,824 new registrations in August and once again securing the first position among rechargeable cars in Europe.

Interestingly, the Tesla Model 3 also was very strong with 11,998 new registrations, beating the top Volkswagen Group MEB-based models - Volkswagen ID.4 (8,439), Skoda Enyaq iV (8,075), and Volkswagen ID.3 (6,878). Nonetheless, it's worth noting that Volkswagen BEV sales improved recently.

Results for the month:

  1. Tesla Model Y - 21,824
  2. Tesla Model 3 - 11,998
  3. Volkswagen ID.4 - 8,439
  4. Skoda Enyaq iV - 8,075
  5. Volkswagen ID.3 - 6,878
  6. MG 4 - 6,733
  7. Dacia Spring - 5,973
  8. Fiat 500 electric - 5,847
  9. Audi Q4 e-tron - 5,442
  10. Cupra Born - 5,205
After the first eight months of 2023, the Tesla Model Y remains a lone leader, while the Tesla Model 3 returned to second position, slightly ahead of the Volkswagen ID.4.

Results in January-August:

  1. Tesla Model Y - 171,914
  2. Tesla Model 3 - 60,902
  3. Volkswagen ID.4 - 58,853
  4. Volvo XC40 (33,034 BEVs + 19,296 PHEVs) - 52,330
  5. Volkswagen ID.3 - 46,589
  6. Skoda Enyaq iV - 45,562
  7. MG 4 - 44,507
  8. Fiat 500 electric - 43,260
  9. Audi Q4 e-tron - 42,267
  10. Dacia Spring - 38,923

Top Brands And Automotive Groups​

Tesla remains the most popular plug-in car brand in Europe, by registration volume, while the Volkswagen Group is beyond reach for any other automotive group (when counting BEVs and PHEVs together).

Top brands by share in the plug-in segment in January-August:

  • Tesla - 12.3%
  • Volkswagen - 8.7%
  • BMW - 8.1%
  • Mercedes-Benz - 7.4%
  • Volvo - 5.7%
  • Audi - 5.3%
Top automotive groups by share in the plug-in segment in January-August:
  • Volkswagen Group - 20.4% share (Volkswagen brand at 8.7%)
  • Stellantis - 14.0%
  • Tesla - 12.3%
  • BMW Group - 9.7% share (BMW brand at 8.1%)
  • Mercedes-Benz Group - 8.3% (Mercedes-Benz brand at 7.4%)
  • Hyundai Motor Group - 8.5%
  • Geely–Volvo - 8.1%
 
“All things considered, definitely not worth it from a practical sense even considering cheaper fuel cost and lower maintenance.”

I’m the opposite, the $2000+ in fuel savings, not including maintenance savings, has been handy for me. I have been investing those savings.

Three years of ownership and I have not spent a cent on maintenance, add the approximate of $2000 per year in fuel savings and my investment account is looking a lot healthier than if I was driving an ICEV. Though I do have the benefit of being able to access some free charging.

Maybe my luck has been that I have only driven my EV around Australia, rather than overseas.

The 30 to 45 minute charge time doesn’t bother me, because I’m usually using that time for a toilet break, or to grab a snack or coffee, or just to take the time to look around the town.

Each to their own 😊

View attachment 163704



As I said, for some people it may be worthwhile if they don't drive out of charging range from their home or equivalent, but I found the lack of charging locations to be a big hassle (if you have to spend time finding and then going to a charging station which isn't on your route it's non trivial, especially when you have the experience of arriving at a charging station and finding it unusable then having to go to another one) and if you value your time at zero that's fine for you, but I really found sitting around waiting for the car to charge to be tedious, and I'd have to offset that time against monetary savings on fuel. Opportunities to charge for free exist in Australia at the moment, but don't expect that to last.

You can talk about $2k per year in fuel savings, and yep, that's definitely something to take into consideration. I was blown away by how cheap it was to charge the car in Thailand (where electricity is far cheaper than in Australia and liquid fuel is comparable in price) but you chose not to mention the initial purchase price of the vehicle. Undeniably there are still far cheaper options than EVs. If you just want to get from A to B as cheaply and reliably as possible, ICE is still the best option. Refueling times completely wipe out time saved on maintenance, and purchase cost difference is greater than fueling difference, especially in Australia with soaring electricity prices.

For me personally the biggest deal breaker is lack of charging locations, unreliability of charging stations, and the time required to charge. If you're happy to be forced to spend 30-45 minutes sitting around pretending to enjoy a coffee or 'exploring the town' (how much exploring are you honestly doing while your car is literally hooked up to a stationary machine which potentially needs to be checked during the charging process?) every time you charge the car, keeping in mind the car needs to be charged more often than an ICE vehicle needs refueling due to the limited range, hey, good for you, but that definitely isn't convenient for me and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be for most people. Charging the EV really made me appreciate just how quickly a regular car can be refueled and have you back on the road.

At this stage it definitely seems that the majority of people with EVs are doing it because they love EVs or they want the pats on the back, prestige, outdoing the Joneses etc, and that being the case they'll sing the vehicle's praises because it's primarily about face.
 
For me personally the biggest deal breaker is lack of charging locations, unreliability of charging stations, and the time required to charge. If you're happy to be forced to spend 30-45 minutes sitting around pretending to enjoy a coffee or 'exploring the town' (how much exploring are you honestly doing while your car is literally hooked up to a stationary machine which potentially needs to be checked during the charging process?) every time you charge the car, keeping in mind the car needs to be charged more often than an ICE vehicle needs refueling due to the limited range, hey, good for you, but that definitely isn't convenient for me and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be for most people. Charging the EV really made me appreciate just how quickly a regular car can be refueled and have you back on the road.

At this stage it definitely seems that the majority of people with EVs are doing it because they love EVs or they want the pats on the back, prestige, outdoing the Joneses etc, and that being the case they'll sing the vehicle's praises because it's primarily about face.

That is why I went with a Tesla. I did my homework, as a trained mechanic and coming from an engineering family, I found that Tesla have the best charging infrastructure in the country, and the best technology, engineering and reliability of all other makes. Three years and 44,000km across three states and not an issue with electrics or charging.

Range is a minor factor, if you choose the correct vehicle. And we are spoilt with the current ICE engines and their great technology. My VF SS-V V8 Ute's engine shuts down 4 cylinders when cruising, I can squeeze about a 1000kms out of a tank on the highway. But would I risk driving that long without a stop? No, not since I grew up.

I remember my first interstate trip in a Holden HJ Kingswood 3.3L, I was lucky to get 350km out of a tank. And my first new car, a 2004 Ford Territory could only manage about 750km on the highway. When I drove my VF V8 I was amazed at the excellent fuel consumption.

Electric Vehicles are going through the same thing that ICEV went through, improved technology gives improved consumption. The only difference is that it won't take 100 years.

As for EV owners patting themselves on the back, well why wouldn't you if your able to save $3000+ a year, which can either pay of your loans quicker or invest for a return.

I enjoy both my cars, the Aussie V8 for its style, sound and speed. And the Tesla for its style, speed and quiet drive. The SS-V will be in my garage until I'm too old to drive.

We have a holiday home on the coast, about 200km of country driving, the Tesla is the primary vehicle to get us there. I always use the self-driving feature for safety, and it also allows me to safely take my eyes off the road to look out all windows at the wonderful scenery of this great country. I've always preferred driving holidays, traveled to many regions of the country, the best drives I have had have been in the Tesla because of the self-driving feature. I arrived with greater knowledge having seen more of the country than when I have to have my eyes glued to the road.

EVs aren't just changing the way we re-fuel our cars, they are changing the way we drive with AI.
 
The only difference is that it won't take 100 years.
but it has electric cars have been available since the early 1900s but the populations chose other energy sources

i bit like nuclear energy , we have known how to do it for more than 50 years but NOW it is urgent ( think or all the limos that could have been electric in the past 40 years )
 
I think both you guys are right and in a lot of ways are saying the same thing.
@Sdaj is saying they are good if the infrastructure is there and @JohnDe is saying his is great because he has plenty of infrastructure available.
I'm in W.A and the infrastructure is lacking, but I find it ok, because I don't need to go too far in the car and it is good for 400km range on a bad day.
But a mate and his wife with a Tesla model Y, went to see their son in Kalgoorlie 600km each way.
The fast charger wasn't working at Merridin so they had to stop for 4 hrs to charge on the way up and on the way back to Perth.
A couple of weekends ago I had to go out to Wickepin, on the way back I needed to top up to ensure I made it and it only took 30 minutes on a fast charger at Williams, so a great cup of coffee later and we eere on our way.
We have done 12,500km and it has cost $16 in total, so for us not a problem, magic.
But on 9th December we are going to Kambalda (just past Kal) for the annual xmas tree, we will catch the train and rent a car in Kal for the weekend, easy.
 
but it has electric cars have been available since the early 1900s but the populations chose other energy sources

i bit like nuclear energy , we have known how to do it for more than 50 years but NOW it is urgent ( think or all the limos that could have been electric in the past 40 years )

That is a little simplistic, we’ve been through the reasons a few times. 🤓
 
That is why I went with a Tesla. I did my homework, as a trained mechanic and coming from an engineering family, I found that Tesla have the best charging infrastructure in the country, and the best technology, engineering and reliability of all other makes. Three years and 44,000km across three states and not an issue with electrics or charging.

Range is a minor factor, if you choose the correct vehicle. And we are spoilt with the current ICE engines and their great technology. My VF SS-V V8 Ute's engine shuts down 4 cylinders when cruising, I can squeeze about a 1000kms out of a tank on the highway. But would I risk driving that long without a stop? No, not since I grew up.

I remember my first interstate trip in a Holden HJ Kingswood 3.3L, I was lucky to get 350km out of a tank. And my first new car, a 2004 Ford Territory could only manage about 750km on the highway. When I drove my VF V8 I was amazed at the excellent fuel consumption.

Electric Vehicles are going through the same thing that ICEV went through, improved technology gives improved consumption. The only difference is that it won't take 100 years.

As for EV owners patting themselves on the back, well why wouldn't you if your able to save $3000+ a year, which can either pay of your loans quicker or invest for a return.

I enjoy both my cars, the Aussie V8 for its style, sound and speed. And the Tesla for its style, speed and quiet drive. The SS-V will be in my garage until I'm too old to drive.

We have a holiday home on the coast, about 200km of country driving, the Tesla is the primary vehicle to get us there. I always use the self-driving feature for safety, and it also allows me to safely take my eyes off the road to look out all windows at the wonderful scenery of this great country. I've always preferred driving holidays, traveled to many regions of the country, the best drives I have had have been in the Tesla because of the self-driving feature. I arrived with greater knowledge having seen more of the country than when I have to have my eyes glued to the road.

EVs aren't just changing the way we re-fuel our cars, they are changing the way we drive with AI.
You save 3k a year but how much more did you have to pay initially ?.
I could agree with all the other points but definitively, it would be dishonest to pretend that you save money going EV vs ice.
So far, and that may change, in the absence of massive subsidies here in Australia, EVs remain far more expensive than the equivalent ICEs from a least $20 $25k for the low side of the market to well over 40k ..
You'd better pile up a lot of annual $3k saving before your battery dies..and not counting the upfront money lost returns
 
That is a little simplistic, we’ve been through the reasons a few times. 🤓
but the answer is simple there has been a place for electric vehicles 'forever ' there was no need to rush the development ( and research ) , not to mention laws and regulations

i operated electric , and gas forklifts way back in the early '80s they were both commercially viable back then all you really needed was 40 years put into developing better batteries the charging infrastructure would have followed popularity

BTW wait until you have modern electric vehicles and CBDCs 😉
 
You save 3k a year but how much more did you have to pay initially ?.
I could agree with all the other points but definitively, it would be dishonest to pretend that you save money going EV vs ice.
So far, and that may change, in the absence of massive subsidies here in Australia, EVs remain far more expensive than the equivalent ICEs from a least $20 $25k for the low side of the market to well over 40k ..
You'd better pile up a lot of annual $3k saving before your battery dies..and not counting the upfront money lost returns

What does it matter what I spent?

If your next door neighbour buys a Mercedes when a Toyota Camry has the same specs for $20,000 less are you going to question it?

I was going to spend the same money on a V8 convertible, in the end I decided on a glass roofed EV.

Yes I am saving money.
 
but the answer is simple there has been a place for electric vehicles 'forever ' there was no need to rush the development ( and research ) , not to mention laws and regulations

i operated electric , and gas forklifts way back in the early '80s they were both commercially viable back then all you really needed was 40 years put into developing better batteries the charging infrastructure would have followed popularity

BTW wait until you have modern electric vehicles and CBDCs 😉

As I said before, it has been explained at least twice in this thread. I can't be bothered going back and searching, here is an example from a quick google search -

Battery technology has been a primary speed bump in electric vehicle development since the first EV hit the streets more than 100 years ago. Creating and manufacturing rechargeable batteries with ample energy density to power mass-market electric cars has been in the works for decades. The technology in electric car batteries continues to improve, which extends how far EVs can travel, how quickly they recharge, and how much they cost.

Until the late 1960s, advancement in battery technology for electric cars was on the back burner because of an abundant gasoline supply. However, high oil prices and gas shortages in the early 1970s renewed interest in EVs, but they suffered from limited range and speed.

Environmental concerns in the 1990s prompted another surge of research and development for EVs. Today, many all-electric cars have a range of more than 300 miles and boast acceleration that can beat muscle cars. Manufacturers continue development to enhance EV battery performance and durability.

An electric vehicle promising relief from high petrol prices sounds all too familiar these days—but what about 40 years ago?

That reality was closer than you might think.

In the late 1970s, one of the companies at the forefront of the technology, British-based Lucas Industries, had begun developing commercial electric vehicles (EVs).

It promised: ‘by the mid-1980s, these high-performance electric commercial vehicles will cost less to own and operate than conventionally powered vans.’

One of these vehicles—a converted Bedford van—resides in the Museums Victoria collection, along with the company’s advertisements about its vision for the future.

‘It demonstrated the practicalities of converting a conventional commercial vehicle to fully electric operation,’ says Matthew Churchward, Museums Victoria’s senior curator of engineering and transport.

‘It proved that it wasn’t that bigger step.’

So, why did it take another four decades for electric vehicles to be widely accepted?

To answer that, we must go back even further.

The electric vehicle revolution...of the 1800s​

Automobiles of the 1800s looked more like the horse-drawn carriages they replaced (minus the horses of course) than the cars we know today.

But it was not a foregone conclusion that they would be powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).

Steam-powered (external combustion) vehicles had been around for more than 100 years by the time Karl Benz’s built his first Motorwagen in 1885, which is widely regarded as the first practical automobile.

And between these two titans of technology, the first electric vehicles began to turn their wheels.

The first prototypes appeared in the 1830s and were closely followed by full-sized wagons.

The invention of rechargeable lead-acid batteries by French physicist Gaston Planté in 1859 only improved their prospects.

Batteries proved useful in all sorts of endeavours that needed backup power, especially in the early days of electrification.

Around the turn of the century usable electric cars were well into production, including the German-made Flocken Electrowagen.

Household names like Ferdinand Porsche, Henry Ford, and Thomas Edison also tried their hands at the technology.

In the early 1900s, more than a third of cars on the road ran on batteries.

By contrast, only about one in five cars sold were powered by an ICE.

Part of the reason for this was that people had to start the engine with a hand crank—something that could (and often did) result in broken bones if the engine backfired.

Electric cars were seen as cleaner and easier to get going, which resulted in them being marketed almost exclusively to women.

detroit_eletric_ad_1912.jpgAn advertisement for the Detroit Electric Car, from 1912.

But EVs also had issues.

‘Partly it was the weight, the limited range, and the cost of the lead-acid batteries,’ says Matthew.

‘Probably those three factors spelled the death knell of electric vehicles in the 20th century.’

The lead-acid batteries used to power them were heavy and took a long time to charge.

To counter this, several companies introduced battery-swapping stations but, fundamentally, electric cars were slower than their petrol-powered competition and couldn’t travel as far.

Ironically one of the things that most helped to establish the ICE’s dominance over electric cars was an electric motor, as the starter motor eliminated the need for a dangerous hand crank.

Henry Ford’s mass production of cheaper petrol-powered cars, like the Model T, also made electric cars much more expensive by comparison.

While fuel shortages during World War I encouraged the use of EVs, it was short-lived.

‘After the First World War, they ramped up production of petroleum-based liquid fuels and made it more convenient and cheaper,’ explains Matthew.

‘The whole concept of refuelling your car becomes a five-minute job, as opposed to waiting several hours for your batteries to charge.

‘The whole transport economy became structured around the automobile.’

The result was that electric vehicles faded into obscurity in the following decades.

In Australia EVs never really found a foothold with manufacturers or drivers in these early years.

The first car ever built in Australia was a steam-powered car made by Herbert Thomson in 1898.

It was another 50 years before the country saw its first locally designed and mass-produced motor car in the shape of a petrol-powered Holden 48-215.

With cheap petrol Australians and Americans alike grew a fondness for big, powerful cars that used a lot of fuel.

Until access to that fuel became an issue.

Oil crisis: a golden electric vehicle opportunity?​

While electric vehicles may have struggled to gain traction on Earth through most of the 1900s, they really took off for extra-terrestrial travellers.

Built by Boeing for Apollo 15 in 1971, the Lunar Roving Vehicle (LRV) allowed astronauts to get around on the surface of the moon.

Granted, LRVs only had a top speed of about 13 kilometres per hour, a range of 92 kilometres, and their silver-oxide batteries couldn’t be recharged.

The first one also cost US$38m to produce and they had to leave it behind.

apollo15lunarrover2.jpg
NASA's Lunar Roving Vehicle on its first trip to the moon with Apollo 15 Commander David Scott. Photo: NASA.

Back on Earth, a few car companies dipped their toes back into the electrified pool but without much commercial success.

In 1973 the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) cut off oil supplies to the USA, in protest for its support for Israel in the Yom Kippur war.

The resulting surge in oil prices caused fuel shortages and rationing in some parts of the world.

‘For the first time in decades people were starting to think about the cost of petrol and environmental factors,’ says Matthew.

It forced manufacturers to consider smaller, more fuel-efficient cars.

But it also presented an opportunity for electric vehicles, which is where the Lucas Bedford fits in.

‘It really was a response to the oil crisis,’ says Matthew.

Lucas targeted the commercial vehicle market, considering it ‘the greatest immediate potential for EV development’.

It started converting vans in 1973 and eventually built about 200 that were sent around the world.

One was even used by Prince Philip in London.

Four of these electric vehicles made it to Australia, where they were trialled on public roads and used in major events like the 1982 Brisbane Commonwealth Games.

It featured energy-saving features like regenerative braking, and a swappable battery pack.

Delivery drivers reported that the electric van was ‘very good to drive,’ and ‘accelerates well’.

While the drivers liked the regenerative braking, they also said it was ‘noisy’.

However, even with Lucas’ developments, the problems of earlier electric vehicles remained.

‘Compared to a petrol-powered van, the electric was more expensive,’ says Matthew.

Its range was also only 100 kilometres and top speed about 80 km/h.

‘With the limited range, commuting or delivery vehicles were the only real practical uses or electric vehicles at the time,’ says Matthew.

But that would all change.

Ionic charge​

The answer to the electric car’s biggest weaknesses came in the form of lithium-ion batteries.

It is difficult to overstate how important these small, lightweight, energy dense cells have been to modern technological development—and not just in transport.

Chances are you have one in your hand or pocket right now.

So significant is the lithium-ion battery to modern civilisation that its inventors won the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 2019.

It was developed over several decades by Michael Whittingham, John Goodenough, and Akira Yoshino and first released commercially by Sony in 1991.

But it took another 17 years to make it into a car.

‘It was a case of waiting for other applications, like laptops and mobile phones, to develop the technology to the point where it could be used in cars,’ explains Matthew.

‘You need that insatiable demand to drive the technological change and development.’

As dire warnings of climate change multiplied, car manufacturers catered to an increasingly environment-conscious market with the introduction of mass-produced hybrid cars.

Hybrids have both a petrol and an electric motor, to reduce emissions and increase fuel economy.

The first was the Toyota Prius, launched around the world in 2000, but it still used the older battery technology.

Tesla became the first to use the newer lithium-ion cells in a production car in 2008—setting the benchmark for the decades to follow.

roadster_25_charging.jpg
Tesla's Roadster, based on a converted Lotus sportscar, was the first commercial electric vehicle to use lithium-ion cells. Photo: Tesla Motors.

‘Lithium-ion batteries really tackle the big issues with electric vehicles—the weight and the range,’ says Matthew.

They can also recharge quickly, made all the easier by extensive networks of fast-charging infrastructure.

And the balance has shifted in costs too.

‘Electric motors are incredibly reliable, they don’t need a lot of maintenance,’ explains Matthew.

While EVs are still relatively expensive compared to ICE vehicles, they cost less to run overall.

However there are still considerations for the long-term future of electric vehicles and their components.

‘I think we’ll have to get much more serious about recycling for the longer term,’ says Matthew.

Despite the ongoing challenges, this time, it appears EVs are here to stay.

 
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