Electric cars?

Value Collector said:

The issue retailers have is that during the middle of the day they are getting more solar than they can sell at 27 cents, and the wholesale rate often goes negative.

So they are sometimes paying us our 10cents, but having to give away the power for much less, then some times later in the after noon during peak demand they have to buy power for over 27cents and sell it do us at a loss.

It’s a weird business, wear whole sale rates constantly fluctuate but retail prices are fixed.

That’s why I mentioned above that Ev’s might be their saving grace, adding a lot of load at times when in general whole sale rates are low.

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I can't get my head around how wholesale electricity prices can go negative.

Common sense says once a price is set to zero, it is free, that is as good as it gets.

If a price becomes negative, why would a electricity generator supply electricity at all?

Macquack said:

I can't get my head around how wholesale electricity prices can go negative.

Common sense says once a price is set to zero, it is free, that is as good as it gets.

If a price becomes negative, why would a electricity generator supply electricity at all?

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Clearly they don't if they can..

Macquack said:

I can't get my head around how wholesale electricity prices can go negative.

Common sense says once a price is set to zero, it is free, that is as good as it gets.

If a price becomes negative, why would a electricity generator supply electricity at all?

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I am not entirely sure of the pricing mechanism, but I believe its something to do with certain amounts of power being already under firm contracts, so if you have certain parties pushing excess power onto to the grid, then some one else has to shut down some of their production, and if they have a contract they will still want to be paid, so the price goes negative as a form of penalty.

Also, there may be distribution costs involved involved so even "giving it away for free" requires you pay a fee, making the wholesale price negative.

Maybe @Smurf1976 has some better insights than me into the pricing structure that causes negative pricing.

One explanation I suppose:

"Negative prices tended to occur when electricity demand is low and weather conditions are optimal for renewable generation”.

Belli said:

No worries, Mick. Plenty assume that people who live here are politicians by association.

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I would have thought that with the ACT there would be no need for other forms of power generation, unlimited quanities of methane coming from the 2 Houses of Parliament.

Macquack said:

I can't get my head around how wholesale electricity prices can go negative.

Common sense says once a price is set to zero, it is free, that is as good as it gets.

If a price becomes negative, why would a electricity generator supply electricity at all?

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Let's suppose I have something to sell, an old couch for example.

If I put it on Gumtree as a free give away and nobody wants it then what to I do?

Ultimately I pay someone to take it and at that point my "selling price" is negative.

The issue with electricity being related to the operational flexibility of plant. As a few dot points on the basics (because it's seriously complex in terms of the technical side):

1. Steam plant takes quite some time, and is operationally involved, to restart. Plus requires the use of premium high grade fuels in many cases too. So there's a very real financial cost to start the plant.

High grade fuels? Typically fuel oil or diesel in the boiler but there's one plant that brings "special" coal in by road to do it - and the truck trip is a bit over 1000km one way from the mine. No longer in operation but there's another that for a few years imported processed coal from Germany to do it. So firing up's rather costly yes. Once running, well then just burn the normal cheap coal.

2. Each shutdown and restart adds very real wear to everything. Temperature and pressure cycles aren't at all kind to boilers. It adds very serious wear.

3. A restart takes quite some time such that in order to be on for the peak, the start up needs to begin many hours prior. Exactly how long depends partly on the equipment and partly on the company that owns it and how they approach it - looking after plant versus thrashing the proverbial out of it. Some are much more cautious than others in that regard - I won't comment as to which companies do what.

4. To remain on, that is to avoid a shutdown, there's a minimum operating load below which it can't run. This varies but for most of the fleet it's in the 30 - 55% of full capacity range but there are some outside that.

Put all that together and steam plant will generally seek to avoid shutdown if there's a need to be back on the same day. And at present there generally is a need for them all to be on at ~6pm such that shutdown is avoided.

Where the negative prices come from is simply steam plant being run to minimum load at a price above zero, then a negative price below that to avoid shutdown. That is to force someone else to shutdown instead of themselves. Whoever blinks first, whoever has the least negative price limit, is the one to go.

In practice well it's not a particularly well kept secret that wind and solar are what gets dumped once steam plant is at minimum. Not for any ideological reason, that honestly isn't a consideration, but simply because it's technically dead easy to do and there's zero economic cost to restart. It's a total loss when curtailed but it's dead easy to turn back up again, it doesn't have the huge restart cost.

5. Adding to that is "must run" generation. Industrial co-generation plants, facilities burning off various wastes some of which are toxic if not burned, hydro releasing water for irrigation and so on. They're effectively forced to generate whether needed or not.

6. Also have to keep some synchronous machines, which in layman's terms is conventional steam / gas turbine / internal combustion / hydro generating units, on for reasons of system strength. That's getting into some serious power engineering but in simple terms it's about voltage and frequency support in the event of a fault and the grid not falling over electrically - the reasons are technical not ideological or economic. That's the only reason two units at Torrens Island (SA) are running right now burning gas - they're turned right down to 20% of capacity, that's the absolute lowest they go whilst staying on, and they're the only fuel burning plant running in SA but they can't be turned off for that reason.

Put all that together and there are certainly times when grid electricity has zero value or negative value. At those times you could charge an EV, or use electricity for anything else, and be adding nothing at all to fossil fuel consumption. That's the case right now in Vic and SA and has been for a few hours - there's about 400MW, that is 400,000 kilowatts, of wind turned off right now with hydro generation off, maximum exports to NSW and Tas, and steam plant turned down to technical minimum for system strength in SA, and to avoid shutdowns and restarts in Vic.

So trying to keep it relevant to the topic of electric cars, there's a very definite "green" benefit to charging at times of lower demand. It won't always be the case but often you'll be using an otherwise wasted resource - especially so in Vic and SA, it's less common but not unheard of in other states.

Chart shows SA steam, gas turbine and internal combustion plant only. The minimum level to maintain units on for system strength is reached most days as is clearly visible:



Same chart for Victoria showing only synchronous plant within the state, everything else excluded, and it's clearly visible with coal plant reaching technical minimum not all but most days. Noting that operating issues with one particular generating unit pushed that up a bit higher than normal last night (gas in orange, hydro in blue):



Also clearly visible is the maximum capacity of Vic coal plant being reached routinely. Noting two (of ten) generating units are presently not being run.

Wind, solar, batteries and interstate transmission in either direction are not shown on either of those charts to be clear. They're intentionally showing synchronous within state plant only.

Great post @Smurf1976 I just wish more people would read what you write, then they might learn that this transition isn't just a case of switching one form of generation off and switching the other one on.
If only the media would stay out of it, rather than winding up the mob.
Also it would let the voters learn, how much nonsense the politicians on all sides talk and actually how little they do.
Isn't Andrews going to sort this coal burning issue out, in Victoria, soon?

Anyway back onto E.V's, thought I was in the power generation thread from general chat, for a minute.?

An interesting article about Ford E.V's and not about the headline.
Could well be my next E.V.?


As previously reported, well-placed dealer sources have told Drive the Ford Mustang Mach-E is a certainty for Australia, despite the US car-giants local arm remaining tight-lipped as to whether the electric car will arrive in showrooms.

On the Toyota front.
Japanese car giant Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen and electric power as it looks further down the road at future environmentally-friendly vehicles.
According to Automotive News, Toyota has aligned itself with industrial giant Kawasaki Heavy Industries – which builds carrier ships for liquid hydrogen – and energy company Iwatani Corporation to provide better infrastructure for hydrogen-powered cars in Japan when the vehicles become more widely available.
The Toyota Mirai – which uses hydrogen to generate electricity in a fuel cell, powering an electric motor – has been produced across two generations since 2014, while the company has also been developing petrol engines to run on hydrogen fuel.
Since early 2021, Toyota has unveiled a number of prototype cars powered by petrol engines which have been converted to run on hydrogen, both as a gas and liquid – producing almost no emissions from the exhaust pipe.

in an unfortunate example of the limits of electric vehicles, the NSW Labour election entourage have had to abandon their"non polluting" electric bus on the campaign trail as it lacked the range required.
From Evil Murdoch press

NSW Labor MPs, staffers and the travelling press pack have abandoned the party’s “zero emissions” election campaign bus in favour of a diesel alternative after realising the vehicle did not have the range to complete the trip.
Just days out from the March 25 election, Labor leader Chris Minn’s campaign has run aground, after staff belatedly realised the ALP-branded, all-electric bus would not make it back from Warragamba Dam, on Sydney’s western fringe.

The vehicle has only been operational since last week, ferrying journalists between media events. But only possessing a range of 300km, Labor staffers and journalists were forced to ditch the Australian-made vehicle in Camden, swapping onto a diesel alternative.

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Unfortunate to say the east.
mick

Just received an email from Chargefox -

Hello John,

Due to an interruption to telecommunication services some charge stations on the Chargefox network are offline.

We are working with the telecommunications supplier to resolve the issue.

In the meantime please check the Chargefox app for station availability.

We will update you as soon as the issue is resolved.

Thank you for your patience and understanding at this time.

The Chargefox team

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Not blaming Charge fox, even though there should be a bullet proof system in place, but if the banks can't stop EFTPOS facilities going down (like I experienced a few weeks ago at the local cafe) what chance does a small company have.

During 20 months of Tesla ownership, I have not experienced this issue with the Tesla charging network. I think that the Tesla communicates directly with the charging unit, no phone required. Hopefully this will stay that way when in a few weeks we take the Tesla on a 2000km drive.

NSW Labor's electric election bus broke down today because they forgot to charge last night. I wonder who has that task on their job description? And, wonder what the backup was?

mullokintyre said:

in an unfortunate example of the limits of electric vehicles, the NSW Labour election entourage have had to abandon their"non polluting" electric bus on the campaign trail as it lacked the range required.
From Evil Murdoch press

Unfortunate to say the east.
mick

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I wouldn’t say that it shows the limits of electric vehicles, it just shows the limits of that particular vehicle.

I haven’t seen the Bus, but if it is like most buses there should be plenty of space to put more batteries, so designing a longer range bus would be simple and not a “limit of ev’s”

But, other reports are saying they just didn’t charge it, so I think it’s operator error more than vehicle limitations.

mullokintyre said:

in an unfortunate example of the limits of electric vehicles, the NSW Labour election entourage have had to abandon their"non polluting" electric bus on the campaign trail as it lacked the range required.
From Evil Murdoch press

Unfortunate to say the east.
mick

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That should be in the political satire thread IMO. ?

JohnDe said:

Just received an email from Chargefox -



Not blaming Charge fox, even though there should be a bullet proof system in place, but if the banks can't stop EFTPOS facilities going down (like I experienced a few weeks ago at the local cafe) what chance does a small company have.

During 20 months of Tesla ownership, I have not experienced this issue with the Tesla charging network. I think that the Tesla communicates directly with the charging unit, no phone required. Hopefully this will stay that way when in a few weeks we take the Tesla on a 2000km drive.

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Also you get to wear the tee shirt. Lol
Friends of mine have a model3, on the weekend we were talking generally about the cars.
The snobby missus said on the way to Albany, you can stop and get a top up at Williams it is so quick, but oh it's a Tesla charger only, that's a pity.
I said, well not really, from Mandurah to Albany I wouldnt have to stop, her husband nearly pizzed himself. Lol

sptrawler said:

That should be in the political satire thread IMO. ?

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The must have the M3SR, tell them that your mate JohnDe with the LR can do the drive with 20% to spare.

The SR (standard range) is more for city use but still capable of long distances with more charging stops. It’s also a bit cheaper than the LR (long range).

Don't scratch your batteries ...................

If you have a minor bump but happen to put a mark on any of your batteries you may have a problem


<<EVs constitute only a fraction of vehicles on the road, making industry-wide data hard to come by, but the trend of low-mileage zero-emission cars being written off with minor damage is growing. Tesla's decision to make battery packs "structural" - part of the car's body - has allowed it to cut production costs but risks pushing those costs back to consumers and insurers.>>

macca said:

Don't scratch your batteries ...................

If you have a minor bump but happen to put a mark on any of your batteries you may have a problem


<<EVs constitute only a fraction of vehicles on the road, making industry-wide data hard to come by, but the trend of low-mileage zero-emission cars being written off with minor damage is growing. Tesla's decision to make battery packs "structural" - part of the car's body - has allowed it to cut production costs but risks pushing those costs back to consumers and insurers.>>

Insight: Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car

For many electric vehicles, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, forcing insurance companies to write off cars with few miles - leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.

www.reuters.com

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Pretty hard to 'scratch' an EV battery. First, they are installed in an insulated box, then sealed with a protective foam, and once installed in the vehicle another layer of protection is added.



The photo shows the underneath of my Tesla M3

I'm hearing on the 'grape vine' the electric Kenworth has 'self immolated'...
Sort of thing that I would have thought note worthy.