Electric cars?

[JohnDe]

The beauty of over the air updates is that the vehicle or device does not become outdated and obsolete in a year or two.

My first new car purchase was a Ford Territory, a great family car that served us well. Except for the annoying issues that affected the Territory's ABS and Stability Control system, it took 3 visits to the dealership to rectify and in the end was a simple recalibration of the steering wheel sensors. However, the safety of my family was compromised for months.

Another annoying issue with that Territory was that a series 2 was released with improved engine and transmission software that improved fuel economy and power. I enquired about having the software update, just like I could do with my home and business computers. The answer was 'no'. there was some capability to flash upgrade certain functions, but each time risked 'bricking' the PCM.

That small improvement on a model only 2 years newer than mine reduced the value of my Territory significantly.

Today, vehicles with OTA updates will retain a higher resale value than a vehicle without OTA.

My 2021 Tesla M3 LR has had many OTA updates, and it currently has the improved software of the 2022 Tesla, and it will have the 2023 version coming out soon.

Over-the-air updates: How does each EV automaker compare?

A detailed guide explaining over-the-air software and firmware updates as well as the status of each EV manufacturers current capabilities.

electrek.co

 

[JohnDe]

Volvo's decision to phase out petrol power a 'sign of the times' ahead of EV boom

When Volvo Australia announced it would stop selling petrol cars by the year 2026, John Johnson said it was the end of an era.

Key points:​

• Volvo Australia has announced it will be "fully electric" four years ahead of a similar, global commitment
• Greg Sievert is a Volvo enthusiast who has converted his own Volvo into an EV at a cost of about $25,000
• The secretary of the Volvo club Victoria says EV conversion is a growing business

Mr Johnson is the secretary of the Volvo Club of Victoria and the proud owner of 15 Volvo vehicles.

As a fan of the brand, the company's decision to ditch petrol came as a bit of a shock.

"I suppose this is just one more thing of protecting the future," Mr Johnson told ABC Radio Mornings.

"Volvo has always been an innovative sort of brand … they've always been in the forefront of safety and innovation."

This week, the Swedish manufacturer turned up the pressure on the likes of Toyota another notch by announcing it would stop selling petrol-powered cars in Australia within four years.

Instead, Volvo would only supply "fully electric" cars by 2026 – four years ahead of a similar, global commitment.

Mr Johnson believed 2026 might be too soon for fans of the vehicle.

"We need more time than that, we've got to get the infrastructure in place," he said.

"It's a sign of the times."

Converting your car to electric​

Mr Johnson thinks the petrol-powered Volvos are here to stay, no matter the future of the company that made them.

He is confident people will maintain their vehicles for years to come.

But while the outsides will remain vintage, the insides may not.


A look inside Greg's 1993 240 Blue Volvo Wagon — a converted EV.(Supplied: Greg Sievert)
"If they liked their old car, and they're prepared to spend the money, [they could] convert it to electric," Mr Johnson said.

That is exactly what fellow Volvo enthusiast and editor of the Victorian Volvo Club's magazine Greg Sievert has done.

Mr Sievert and his partner, both mechanics, decided to embark on this challenge back in 2010.

They chose an old Volvo 240 Wagon as "a good candidate" for the conversion.

After a few months of hard work, and about $25,000, they had their very own electric vehicle (EV).

"It's been on the road since 2011, still going strong," Mr Sievert said.
Mr Sievert said Volvo Australia's announcement this week was "pretty exciting".

"I think Volvo is one of the car makers that probably has the best chance of getting in early and making the leap to all-electric," he said.


Among his collection of cars, Greg has a red 2022 Volvo XC40 recharge twin EV.(Supplied: Greg Sievert)
Mr Johnson admits more people are likely to follow Mr Sievert's footsteps as the push towards an EV industry accelerates.

"I think EV conversion … that's the next generation of things that are happening," he said.

"It is a big business. It's going to only get bigger as time goes on."

 

[qldfrog]

Where the difference arises is that taking it back to the service centre costs the company serious $ all up and top management will be sure to know about it. That creates a rather strong incentive to have proper procedures in place to test it and get it right the first time so as to minimise the number of such recalls.

Versus being dead easy and essentially zero cost to fix errors remotely leads to a mentality that testing isn't required since problems can always be fixed and not even middle management will find out that it happened. All good until a problem slips through that brings serious consequences.

In principle from a technical perspective doing it remotely is brilliant yes. It enables it to be done quickly, cheaply and easily. Where it creates problems is with internal management and accountability.

There are other industries which have avoided the approach for that exact reason. When it's all done physically and involves serious time and effort, it's impossible to cover up internally that it's being done. It keeps the "bar" high in terms of technical testing, accountability and so on.

And obviously more prone to hack/ fraudulent activity;
Look at the nice parallel with dvd readers and region locking in the past: initially,reader were built per region (eon ago).
Then you had a micro switch you had to physically push inside the box to unlock illegally, then a few button sequence to do it remotely..until the concept was de facto dropped
But still ,you can imagine that rewinding a speedometer or wiping a speeding ticket module will be easier by hacking on the ethernet than if needing to plug physically onto the on board computer, or worse having to diassemble a chip or connecting a drill on a cable as was done in shoddy car salesyards...
Leaving remote access to key safety parameters is just a disaster waiting to happen..and what a pot of honey.
Imagine the millions in reward for a hacker to break into Tesla f.e. and be able to disable the brakes and as well lock the remote updates to his own dark web versions ?
Worth employing a few hundred Ukrainian hackers..sorry Russian of course,
Even worthwhile for a North Korean state department imho.

 

[Value Collector]

And obviously more prone to hack/ fraudulent activity;
Look at the nice parallel with dvd readers and region locking in the past: initially,reader were built per region (eon ago).
Then you had a micro switch you had to physically push inside the box to unlock illegally, then a few button sequence to do it remotely..until the concept was de facto dropped
But still ,you can imagine that rewinding a speedometer or wiping a speeding ticket module will be easier by hacking on the ethernet than if needing to plug physically onto the on board computer, or worse having to diassemble a chip or connecting a drill on a cable as was done in shoddy car salesyards...
Leaving remote access to key safety parameters is just a disaster waiting to happen..and what a pot of honey.
Imagine the millions in reward for a hacker to break into Tesla f.e. and be able to disable the brakes and as well lock the remote updates to his own dark web versions ?
Worth employing a few hundred Ukrainian hackers..sorry Russian of course,
Even worthwhile for a North Korean state department imho.

I am not sure how you think a hacker could use software to “disconnect” mechanical parts of the car such as brakes.

 

[mullokintyre]

I am not sure how you think a hacker could use software to “disconnect” mechanical parts of the car such as brakes.

I can think of a few.
Most modern cars have interconnected anti skid systems and traction control systems using electrical sensors that quickly apply the brakes many times a second to keep the wheels turning in the desired speed.
The system that controls regen braking in EV's is one. They are electrically controlled, so may well be susceptible to hacking.
Those vehicles that have adaptive cruise control also apply the brakes automatically if a car in front slows down.
Any of them could be manipulated depending on the DSP used to control them all.
There may be others I have not thought of.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

I can think of a few.
Most modern cars have interconnected anti skid systems and traction control systems using electrical sensors that quickly apply the brakes many times a second to keep the wheels turning in the desired speed.
The system that controls regen braking in EV's is one. They are electrically controlled, so may well be susceptible to hacking.
Those vehicles that have adaptive cruise control also apply the brakes automatically if a car in front slows down.
Any of them could be manipulated depending on the DSP used to control them all.
There may be others I have not thought of.
Mick

Would any of those systems be able to stop me pressing my foot on the brake?

And, is it possible to actually control or make changes to any of those systems outside of the time when an update is downloaded and installed? I mean they aren’t remote control cars that are constantly receiving commands externally, they are still essentially closed systems.

 

[JohnDe]

'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'

Can someone give me the figures of how many modern vehicles have been ’hacked’. How many have had the mechanical brake system disabled by a software hack. The percentage of mobile phones hacked remotely and without input from the user.

Thanks in advance.

 

[mullokintyre]

Would any of those systems be able to stop me pressing my foot on the brake?

You can put your foot on the brake, but it may not do anything.
In the case of the anti skid, the electronics override it to stop it skidding.
I have to turn off my anti skid systems going up a wet farm road because it kept overiding watever I input to the accelerator or brakes demonstrated that to me some time ago.

And, is it possible to actually control or make changes to any of those systems outside of the time when an update is downloaded and installed? I mean they aren’t remote control cars that are constantly receiving commands externally, they are still essentially closed systems.

You have contradicted yourself.
A closed system cannot have an ability to get external inputs, which is essentially what the the over the air updates are.
it would also have to be immune to any other forms of radiation, such as LIDAR, nuetrons, and em waves.
The fears that a massive corona ejection like the Carrington event would create havoc with any electrical devices, communications systems etc apply just as equally to modern day cars.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

You can put your foot on the brake, but it may not do anything.
In the case of the anti skid, the electronics override it to stop it skidding.
I have to turn off my anti skid systems going up a wet farm road because it kept overiding watever I input to the accelerator or brakes demonstrated that to me some time ago.

You have contradicted yourself.
A closed system cannot have an ability to get external inputs, which is essentially what the the over the air updates are.
it would also have to be immune to any other forms of radiation, such as LIDAR, nuetrons, and em waves.
The fears that a massive corona ejection like the Carrington event would create havoc with any electrical devices, communications systems etc apply just as equally to modern day cars.
Mick

When I say closed system I mean once the update is done, I don’t think there is any pathway for a hacker to break into the cars software and start messing with it.

There are a few minor things you can control trough the app eg air conditioning, winding windows down, unlocking doors but you can access control of the steering wheels or brakes etc.

Wouldn’t a hacker wanting to take advantage of Teslas over the updates to control the car have to some how hack Tesla and rewrite software before they send it out to the cars?

I mean just because Tesla can send an update to my car doesn’t mean anyone out there can do it.

 

[mullokintyre]

When I say closed system I mean once the update is done, I don’t think there is any pathway for a hacker to break into the cars software and start messing with it.

Really? For years thats exactly what hackers did with computer updates.
You can mess with the virtual adress of the software, play with the URL, lots things before it even gets out to the customers.

There are a few minor things you can control trough the app eg air conditioning, winding windows down, unlocking doors but you can access control of the steering wheels or brakes etc.

Wouldn’t a hacker wanting to take advantage of Teslas over the updates to control the car have to some how hack Tesla and rewrite software before they send it out to the cars?

I mean just because Tesla can send an update to my car doesn’t mean anyone out there can do it.

Problem is, its been happening for years. You think this is a new phenomenon?
No one knows what sot of vulnerabilities there are until some hacker finds them

When I say closed system I mean once the update is done, I don’t think there is any pathway for a hacker to break into the cars software and start messing with it.

As to it being a closed system once the update, that's demonstrable wrong because you don't know what entry points have been written into the system, inadvertently or otherwise.
You have no idea what pathways there are, not even tesla.
Not until some hacker does something different.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Riding an electric motor bike across Australia.

How do you ride an electric motorcycle across Australia? Slowly, and you pray for a tailwind

Ed Darmanin is on a quest to become the first person to travel from Perth to Sydney on an electric motorcycle, but covering vast distances between charging points hasn't always been easy riding.

www.abc.net.au

 

[JohnDe]

Really? For years thats exactly what hackers did with computer updates.
You can mess with the virtual adress of the software, play with the URL, lots things before it even gets out to the customers.

Problem is, its been happening for years. You think this is a new phenomenon?
No one knows what sot of vulnerabilities there are until some hacker finds them

As to it being a closed system once the update, that's demonstrable wrong because you don't know what entry points have been written into the system, inadvertently or otherwise.
You have no idea what pathways there are, not even tesla.
Not until some hacker does something different.
Mick

First of all, do you have any examples of an OTA update being hacked and causing life threatening issues?

I would be more worried about vehicles that do not have OTA capabilities and required physical connection to rectify issues.

On Friday, Chrysler announced that it's issuing a formal recall for 1.4 million vehicles that may be affected by a hackable software vulnerability in Chrysler's Uconnect dashboard computers. The vulnerability was first demonstrated to WIRED by security researchers Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek earlier this month when they wirelessly hacked a Jeep I was driving...​

​

Chrysler had already issued a patch in a software update for its vehicles last week, but announced it with a vague press release on its website only. A recall, by contrast, means all affected customers will be notified about the security vulnerability and urged to patch their software. "The recall aligns with an ongoing software distribution that insulates connected vehicles from remote manipulation...​

​

In its press statement about the recall, Chrysler offered the following list of vehicles that may be affected:​

• 2013-2015 MY Dodge Viper specialty vehicles
• 2013-2015 Ram 1500, 2500 and 3500 pickups
• 2013-2015 Ram 3500, 4500, 5500 Chassis Cabs
• 2014-2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Cherokee SUVs
• 2014-2015 Dodge Durango SUVs
• 2015 MY Chrysler 200, Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger sedans
• 2015 Dodge Challenger sports coupes

"The software manipulation addressed by this recall required unique and extensive technical knowledge, prolonged physical access to a subject vehicle and extended periods of time to write code,"​

​

Careful Chrysler owners don't need to depend on that network protection or wait for a USB drive to be mailed to them to patch their Uconnect computers. They can download the patch to a computer right now, put it on a USB drive, and install it on the dashboard. Start here to get that software fix.​

​

After Jeep Hack, Chrysler Recalls 1.4M Vehicles for Bug Fix

Welcome to the age of hackable automobiles, when two security researchers can cause a 1.4 million product recall.

www.wired.com

 

[mullokintyre]

First of all, do you have any examples of an OTA update being hacked and causing life threatening issues?

I would be more worried about vehicles that do not have OTA capabilities and required physical connection to rectify issues.

On Friday, Chrysler announced that it's issuing a formal recall for 1.4 million vehicles that may be affected by a hackable software vulnerability in Chrysler's Uconnect dashboard computers. The vulnerability was first demonstrated to WIRED by security researchers Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek earlier this month when they wirelessly hacked a Jeep I was driving...​

​

Chrysler had already issued a patch in a software update for its vehicles last week, but announced it with a vague press release on its website only. A recall, by contrast, means all affected customers will be notified about the security vulnerability and urged to patch their software. "The recall aligns with an ongoing software distribution that insulates connected vehicles from remote manipulation...​

​

In its press statement about the recall, Chrysler offered the following list of vehicles that may be affected:​

• 2013-2015 MY Dodge Viper specialty vehicles
• 2013-2015 Ram 1500, 2500 and 3500 pickups
• 2013-2015 Ram 3500, 4500, 5500 Chassis Cabs
• 2014-2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Cherokee SUVs
• 2014-2015 Dodge Durango SUVs
• 2015 MY Chrysler 200, Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger sedans
• 2015 Dodge Challenger sports coupes

"The software manipulation addressed by this recall required unique and extensive technical knowledge, prolonged physical access to a subject vehicle and extended periods of time to write code,"​

​

Careful Chrysler owners don't need to depend on that network protection or wait for a USB drive to be mailed to them to patch their Uconnect computers. They can download the patch to a computer right now, put it on a USB drive, and install it on the dashboard. Start here to get that software fix.​

​

After Jeep Hack, Chrysler Recalls 1.4M Vehicles for Bug Fix

Welcome to the age of hackable automobiles, when two security researchers can cause a 1.4 million product recall.

www.wired.com

Straw man as usual.
We were talking about potential hacking.
As to the problems with Chrysler, another straw man argument.
All it does is highlight that software updates are never perfect whether they come from OTA or from bein installed via a USB cable.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

Straw man as usual.
We were talking about potential hacking.
As to the problems with Chrysler, another straw man argument.
All it does is highlight that software updates are never perfect whether they come from OTA or from bein installed via a USB cable.
Mick

I work in the industry. I am subscribed to multiple bodies that service and educate the industry. I pay to update my staff and myself for present and upcoming technologies involve with the industry.

What do you do?

 

[mullokintyre]

I work in the industry. I am subscribed to multiple bodies that service and educate the industry. I pay to update my staff and myself for present and upcoming technologies involve with the industry.

What do you do?

I am a retired IT engineer.
Mick

 

[JohnDe]

I am a retired IT engineer.
Mick

Nice to be retired.

 

[Value Collector]

Really? For years thats exactly what hackers did with computer updates.
You can mess with the virtual adress of the software, play with the URL, lots things before it even gets out to the customers.

Problem is, its been happening for years. You think this is a new phenomenon?
No one knows what sot of vulnerabilities there are until some hacker finds them

As to it being a closed system once the update, that's demonstrable wrong because you don't know what entry points have been written into the system, inadvertently or otherwise.
You have no idea what pathways there are, not even tesla.
Not until some hacker does something different.
Mick

Well, we will just have to wait and see I guess.

At the end of the day I think I am most at risk from the mistakes of other drivers, not a software issue.

If moving towards self driving and software updates reduces my risk in 100 ways but opens me up to risk in 10 ways, the risk vs reward is still in our favour.

 

[basilio]

India wants to move decisively to electric transport. One of the overwhelming issues for India is air pollution that is off the page.

Very useful story on how they are making the figures stack up. Also legitimate concern about the capacity to charge the multimillions of electric rickshaws, scooters and small cars they are planning.

India wants 30pc of private cars to be electric by 2030. Here's how they plan to do it​

By South Asia correspondent Avani Dias and Som Patidar in New Delhi
Posted 5h ago5 hours ago, updated 5h ago5 hours ago

New Delhi is considered one of the most air polluted cities in the world.(Reuters: Anushree Fadnavis)

Indians are ditching fuel cars in what is being described as an EV revolution. Here's how they're doing it

While many parts of the world struggle to get behind the wheel of an electric vehicle because of cost, India makes it a mission to make them affordable to many of its 1.3 billion people.

www.abc.net.au

 

[JohnDe]

India wants to move decisively to electric transport. One of the overwhelming issues for India is air pollution that is off the page.

Very useful story on how they are making the figures stack up. Also legitimate concern about the capacity to charge the multimillions of electric rickshaws, scooters and small cars they are planning.

India wants 30pc of private cars to be electric by 2030. Here's how they plan to do it​

By South Asia correspondent Avani Dias and Som Patidar in New Delhi
Posted 5h ago5 hours ago, updated 5h ago5 hours ago
View attachment 149125
New Delhi is considered one of the most air polluted cities in the world.(Reuters: Anushree Fadnavis)

Indians are ditching fuel cars in what is being described as an EV revolution. Here's how they're doing it

While many parts of the world struggle to get behind the wheel of an electric vehicle because of cost, India makes it a mission to make them affordable to many of its 1.3 billion people.

www.abc.net.au

Imagine the amount of battery materials required in the very near future.

 

[basilio]

Imagine the amount of battery materials required in the very near future.

Which indeed is one of the questions raised in the story.