Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

We all pay for electricity infrastructure, generators, poles and wires etc, but Tesla is claiming exclusive use of some of it.

Anyway, we'll see if this plays out in the ACCC as anti competitive behaviour.

No, it’s claiming exclusive use of some of the private equipment it plugs into the electrical network.

Just like your toaster is yours alone to use, even though it may be powered by electricity from the grid.

All Tesla chargers are on private land and the equipment is all privately owned, no government money or government land was used to fund the purchase of the charging infrastructure.

 

[Value Collector]

So if Im a member and I pass away, the kids keep the membership?
If I pass on tbe Tesla, the next person gets the membership, yet havent paid for it.
How much was the cost of membership, apportioned on the Tesla purchase contract?

Are you talking about Disney, yes because you are part owner in the building you pass that on to your kids.

If you die owning a Tesla, you pass that car on to your kids too, and all the benefits of Tesla ownership pass along with the car.

It’s not a membership that is itemised on the invoice, I am using the term Membership for comparison sake, it’s more of a perk of Tesla ownership vs the brands that don’t support their customers.

But, anyone that owns a Tesla will tell you that access to the supercharger network is a valuable perk, even if it’s never itemised on any bill.

Even if another company sold a car that was exactly the same in all other regards, I would still pay a bit extra to get the Tesla just because of the super charger network, and that goes for second hand cars too.

 

[sptrawler]

I can understand your logic, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I have RAC insurance, but I dont have roadside assist, also you dont have to have RAC insurance to only have roadside assist.

 

[sptrawler]

I bought Telstra shares in the initial floats and was annoyed when the ACCC gave Singtel access to Telstras infrastructure, we the shareholders paid for it why should an overseas based company get to piggyback on it.
But it happened in the public interest.

 

[Value Collector]

I bought Telstra shares in the initial floats and was annoyed when the ACCC gave Singtel access to Telstras infrastructure, we the shareholders paid for it why should an overseas based company get to piggyback on it.
But it happened in the public interest.

It would be next to impossible for each company to lay their own phone cable network going to each house, so to prevent Telstra being a monopoly they need to give access to other companies.

However, as petrol stations have shown, it’s easy for competing companies to building refuelling stations along side each other and compete.

Ev charging stations are much more similar to petrol stations than telecommunications infrastructure.

 

[sptrawler]

It would be next to impossible for each company to lay their own phone cable network going to each house, so to prevent Telstra being a monopoly they need to give access to other companies.

However, as petrol stations have shown, it’s easy for competing companies to building refuelling stations along side each other and compete.

Ev charging stations are much more similar to petrol stations than telecommunications infrastructure.

Yes but a national petrol station installer if it was the very early roll out of petrol cars, wouldn't be allowed to install pumps, that only worked on Holden cars.
They may be allowed to install a higher percentage of pumps at each location that were Holden specific if Holden were funding it, but I'm sure the ACCC would demand at least some pumps at each outlet had to be universal fitment.
The same competition rules have to apply to Tesla as applied to Telstra, the general public is supplying the infrastructure that supports Teslas charging infrastructure, if public demand calls for more access i'm sure the ACCC will become involved as it did with Telstra.
If Tesla had a solar installation supplying each charger, maybe they would have a stronger case, but from my experience "in the publics interest" is a very broad mandate for the ACCC, which it has used on numerous ocassions.
By the way great discussion IMO.

 

[JohnDe]

Because they run different frequencies and there is no need to put frequencies in that your system doesnt operate on.

No, that is not true.

Anyone can go to Officeworks and purchase a modem - NBN Modem Routers

However, if you sign a contract with Telstra the modem is locked to Telstra. Why is that?

With you'r own analogy, should the ACCC be involved? Telstra are charging for a modem and then causing it to become a brick wen the customer changes providers.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes but a national petrol station installer if it was the very early roll out of petrol cars, wouldn't be allowed to install pumps, that only worked on Holden cars.
They may be allowed to install a higher percentage of pumps at each location that were Holden specific if Holden were funding it, but I'm sure the ACCC would demand at least some pumps at each outlet had to be universal fitment.
The same competition rules have to apply to Tesla as applied to Telstra, the general public is supplying the infrastructure that supports Teslas charging infrastructure, if public demand calls for more access i'm sure the ACCC will become involved as it did with Telstra.
If Tesla had a solar installation supplying each charger, maybe they would have a stronger case, but from my experience "in the publics interest" is a very broad mandate for the ACCC, which it has used on numerous ocassions.
By the way great discussion IMO.

It could if it was Holden itself installing them, why would Holden want to install chargers for other brands?

It’s a pretty weak argument to say that Tesla needs to open up because it’s chargers use the national grid, that’s a bit like me saying you need to allow me to use your toaster because it’s plugged into the national grid, all the clubs we have mentioned use the grid and are connected to roads etc.

Tesla pays all the connection fees, usage charges etc to connect to the grid, it’s not being subsidised.

 

[sptrawler]

It could if it was Holden itself installing them, why would Holden want to install chargers for other brands?

It’s a pretty weak argument to say that Tesla needs to open up because it’s chargers use the national grid, that’s a bit like me saying you need to allow me to use your toaster because it’s plugged into the national grid, all the clubs we have mentioned use the grid and are connected to roads etc.

Tesla pays all the connection fees, usage charges etc to connect to the grid, it’s not being subsidised.

If Holden installed them and only wanted holden people to use them, they would use a proprietary plug, as apple does.
But hasn't apple been told to change over to a type C so that other phone users can use their charger?
(By 2024, all mobile phones and tablets to use USB Type-C charger. iPhones are charged from a Lightning cable, while Android-based devices use USB-C connectors.)
Maybe if Tesla owned the land that they put the chargers on, they could have more say. But what if the Tesla chargers are on private land and the owners want them opened to all comers?
Tesla pays the connection fees and can pass them on to end users, don't new Tesla owners have to pay anyway? So really there is no moral ground to refuse access, or is it just on anti competition grounds.
It does open up a lot of questions, same as an all men's club, that men formed men may have paid for, as a quite place to go to, but they are being pressured to allow women in.

 

[sptrawler]

No, that is not true.

Anyone can go to Officeworks and purchase a modem - NBN Modem Routers

However, if you sign a contract with Telstra the modem is locked to Telstra. Why is that?

With you'r own analogy, should the ACCC be involved? Telstra are charging for a modem and then causing it to become a brick wen the customer changes providers.

Because you've signed a contract with Telstra, same as if you buy a Samsung phone with a usage package, until the contract is completed the phone is locked to the carrier.
Once the phone is out of contract and paid off, the carrier will unlock it and a person can then use the phone on any carrier.

 

[JohnDe]

Because you've signed a contract with Telstra, same as if you buy a Samsung phone with a usage package, until the contract is completed the phone is locked to the carrier.
Once the phone is out of contract and paid off, the carrier will unlock it and a person can then use the phone on any carrier.

Yesterday I tried to get internet reconnected to a property that has a modem, I had two options. Because the modem is proprietary based with a internet provider, I could start again & wait for the new modem from the new provider, or go back to the original provider & sign up over the phone & have the connection work in an hour.

If I had my own Officeworks modem that is unlocked I would be up an using the internet with a phone call.

Where’s the ACCC in this one? Which affects millions of people.

 

[Value Collector]

If Holden installed them and only wanted holden people to use them, they would use a proprietary plug, as apple does.
But hasn't apple been told to change over to a type C so that other phone users can use their charger?
Maybe if Tesla owned the land that they put the chargers on, they could have more say. But what if the Tesla chargers are on private land and the owners want them opened to all comers?
Tesla pays the connection fees and can pass them on to end users, don't new Tesla owners have to pay anyway? So really there is no moral ground to refuse access, just anti competition grounds.
It does open up a lot of questions, same as an all men's club, that men formed men may have paid for as a quite place to go to, but they are being pressured to allow women in.

My Tesla uses the same plug as the Kona.

Tesla leases the land and pays rent to owners of the land the super chargers sit on, the land lords don’t get a say.

Yes Tesla owners still pay for the electricity to they take from the super charger, but having access to the net work is still a major perk, I would drive past a cheaper charging location to get to Tesla charger just because it’s a better experience. Eg. More stalls, less chance it’s out of order and no annoying log in or apps to deal with just plug in.

I think the ultimate reason to deny other brands is to preserve the customer experience of the people that the network was built for and the people that contributed to its construction.

————————-

Let’s say the construction of the super charger network has added $1000 to the cost of each Tesla sold, and the charging fees have simply covered the costs such as lease payments and electrical costs.

Technically for Hyundai or Toyotas to join our system they should be required to pay an upfront fee of $1000 + the charging costs.

This $1000 upfront fee can go towards adding more charging locations, so that their presence in the system doesn’t reduce the customer experience for those customers that have already contributed to the roll out of the net work.

 

[JohnDe]

My Tesla uses the same plug as the Kona.

…I would drive past a cheaper charging location to get to Tesla charger just because it’s a better experience. Eg. More stalls, less chance it’s out of order and no annoying log in or apps to deal with just plug in.

I also do that. The Tesla chargers are very easy to use, and the convenience of not having to log on or create an account is worth the extra fee.

 

[sptrawler]

Thanks for the discussion you guys, it was fun and interesting.

 

[sptrawler]

Yesterday I tried to get internet reconnected to a property that has a modem, I had two options. Because the modem is proprietary based with a internet provider, I could start again & wait for the new modem from the new provider, or go back to the original provider & sign up over the phone & have the connection work in an hour.

If I had my own Officeworks modem that is unlocked I would be up an using the internet with a phone call.

Where’s the ACCC in this one? Which affects millions of people.

Yes I have bought a portable charger, rather than a wall box and I will make myself an array of adaptors, so that I can use as many options as possible.
I agree with you regarding modems, I would always buy a third party modem if I was getting the NBN connected as I've done with the E.V charger, flexibility is the name of the game.
I don't have the NBN, just a wireless hotspot from the phone.

 

[JohnDe]

I don't have the NBN, just a wireless hotspot from the phone.

That was one of my options and first port of call, but the 4G was very slow and couldn't cope. I needed a connection and ended up calling the original provider and paying for one month of internet at 50Mbps.

 

[sptrawler]

Volkswagen autonomous tech to rival long-distance travel by air or rail

Driver-less autonomous vehicles, fully equipped with beds and offices, could take the place of short-haul plane travel if Volkswagen is right.

www.drive.com.au

The concept car, just unveiled in France, is a pod-style vehicle without any provision for a driver.
The passenger space has seats for four people, including a face-to-face provision for a mobile office, and it can also be configured for sleeping with two fully-reclining beds.
It has huge top-hinged doors for easy access to the cabin and the lack of traditional B-pillars to hinge the doors allows huge glass windows on both sides.
There is no plan for the Gen.Travel to serve as a taxi – instead it would be booked and configured for individual trips – and Volkswagen is yet to give any details of its range, battery pack or drive system, beyond the promise of electric Active Body Control for maximum comfort.
"As a research vehicle, the purpose of the Gen.Travel is to test the concept and new functionalities for customer response,” said Volkswagen.

 

[Macquack]

Volkswagen autonomous tech to rival long-distance travel by air or rail

Driver-less autonomous vehicles, fully equipped with beds and offices, could take the place of short-haul plane travel if Volkswagen is right.

www.drive.com.au

The concept car, just unveiled in France, is a pod-style vehicle without any provision for a driver.
The passenger space has seats for four people, including a face-to-face provision for a mobile office, and it can also be configured for sleeping with two fully-reclining beds.
It has huge top-hinged doors for easy access to the cabin and the lack of traditional B-pillars to hinge the doors allows huge glass windows on both sides.
There is no plan for the Gen.Travel to serve as a taxi – instead it would be booked and configured for individual trips – and Volkswagen is yet to give any details of its range, battery pack or drive system, beyond the promise of electric Active Body Control for maximum comfort.
"As a research vehicle, the purpose of the Gen.Travel is to test the concept and new functionalities for customer response,” said Volkswagen.

I do love all this autonomous vehicle tech stuff, but the dinosaur in me would prefer to be awake and at the wheel when my car hits an oil slick in the rain.

 

[sptrawler]

I do love all this autonomous vehicle tech stuff, but the dinosaur in me would prefer to be awake and at the wheel when my car hits an oil slick in the rain.

I agree, I can't see myself adjusting to autonomous driving cars, I can't sleep when the wife is driving, so there is no chance if a computer is doing it. I worked long enough with process controls, to know when it goes wrong, it ends badly.?

 

[Value Collector]

I agree, I can't see myself adjusting to autonomous driving cars, I can't sleep when the wife is driving, so there is no chance if a computer is doing it. I worked long enough with process controls, to know when it goes wrong, it ends badly.?

People used to say the same about lifts controlled by machines.