Electric cars?

[JohnDe]

What you have said there is exactly the reason, a standard battery format and housing makes perfect sense.
By the way I do have a bit of a clue, regards batteries, I know they have many cells and electronic components, one I do have tertiary electronic qualifications, two I am a dual traded instrument/ electrical with an A grade electrical license and three I am building a home battery.
By the way here is a picture of an Aldi battery that has a dead cell, that I'm about to replace with one of the 18650's I've got from stripping dead battery packs.

View attachment 139527

If we're going to start down the track of knowledge and experience, I have been involved in the automotive industry, starting with Saturday's and school holidays at my fathers business from the age of 14. I have been certified and studying in the industry for over 30 years. Part of the reason I purchased a Tesla is to prepare for the EV evolution/revolution.

I know all about gas bottle inspections, LPG vehicles required it every 10 years. I also know about swapping stations because I researched the idea when it first came out in 2019/20.

Yes I know that swapping batteries is meant to be in conjunction with charging, and this is why I mention the quality of the battery that is fitted on a swap. Take the example of a Taxi, which will run that battery down to the dregs before charging each time and eventually swapping, this causes degradation of the battery. New battery technology and software is improving the issues but not eliminating the problem. Now take that Taxi battery, and then you come along with your 7 year old EV which you have charged and discharged as recommended by the manufacturers since new and then swap it with that Taxi battery.

As for charging and 'swap stations', one will cost an extremely lot more than the other, this cost has to be made up quickly so that the owner can start showing a profit.

I can see 'swap stations' being a little like VHS and Beta, both work and can make their owners a profit, but one becomes obsolete because consumers prefer the other. Battery charging is only going to get faster, battery capacity is only going to get faster, power consumption is only going to get less.

 

[sptrawler]

I can see 'swap stations' being a little like VHS and Beta, both work and can make their owners a profit, but one becomes obsolete because consumers prefer the other. Battery charging is only going to get faster, battery capacity is only going to get faster, power consumption is only going to get less.

A better analogy would be to compare an electric drill that you have to plug in to charge, as opposed to an electric drill you can plug in and charge, or swap out the battery whichever is convenient at the time.
But whatever suits the narrative.

As for picking up a taxi battery, well you or VC or I wouldn't because we charge mainly at home so we wouldn't bother swapping out until it was shagged.
The batteries in the swap station would be constantly monitored and refurbished, repurposed or sent for recycling, aren't we meant to be thinking about the environment and efficient use of resources, obviously too much of a head spin for some.

 

[JohnDe]

A better analogy would be to compare an electric drill that you have to plug in to charge, as opposed to an electric drill you can plug in and charge, or swap out the battery whichever is convenient at the time.
But whatever suits the narrative.

I've never seen a battery swap station for an electric drill. Why is that?

 

[sptrawler]

I've never seen a battery swap station for an electric drill. Why is that?

Because, if you go back to my original post #5,636, they haven't standardised the batteries obviously.

By the way I do like the fact you followed in your fathers footsteps, my family has done the same, my father was one of the early Instrumentation tradesmen, my brother, myself and my two sons have followed a similar path.
We all did an apprenticeship and qualified as electricians, my brother became a computer system engineer for Honeywell, I went down a different path into power generation.
But I think it is great, that kids get enough enthusiasm and positive vibes, to follow in their parents footpaths. It indicates their parents were obviously happy with their chosen profession.

 

[JohnDe]

Because, if you go back to my original post #5,636, they haven't standardised the batteries obviously.

Electric tool companies have standardised their own batteries for their own tools, they could easily open battery swap stations, but they haven't. If there is a profit to be made and advantage for all it would have happened.

And what are all the reasons that manufacturers don't have a standardised battery?

Some of the reasons is because of cost and size. Not everyone requires a large heavy duty commercial battery pack, some tools are designed to fit in tight spots. During the life of a product an improved design may be found, and so on.

Having a design that all manufacturers must stick to will affect the manufacturers. How does a battery swap work for my little EV MG and my mate Ford EV ute, or my wife's large Mercedes EV?

 

[sptrawler]

Electric tool companies have standardised their own batteries for their own tools, they could easily open battery swap stations, but they haven't. If there is a profit to be made and advantage for all it would have happened.

And what are all the reasons that manufacturers don't have a standardised battery?

Some of the reasons is because of cost and size. Not everyone requires a large heavy duty commercial battery pack, some tools are designed to fit in tight spots. During the life of a product an improved design may be found, and so on.

Having a design that all manufacturers must stick to will affect the manufacturers. How does a battery swap work for my little EV MG and my mate Ford EV ute, or my wife's large Mercedes EV?

Your first statement is the reason, they haven't standardised, there isn't any profit in it, simple.
But you can't then say it is about efficiency, because it isn't, it is about profit.
You can't say it is about the best use of finite resources, it isn't, it is about profit.

How does a battery swap work for my little MG and my mate's Ford ute?
Obviously only I am listening to what the other person is saying, if you read my post #5640 you would have read quote:
If there were three sizes eg, small say 30Kwh, medium 50KWh and Large 80KWh for example that wouldn't be too hard.

I'm certainly getting the feeling, you're a more talk at you guy, than a discuss with you, sort of person.

Anyway to move on, which will probably end up being the end of the discussion.
If I was Elon Musk and he is a lot smarter than me, I would suggest I step back with my car making and on sell it to a manufacturer, because I want to focus on sustainability and I will suggest a battery standard is adopted and my gigafactories will supply them.
WOW then all the manufacturers don't have to worry about sourcing raw materials, making batteries which are the major cost, just have to make the roller skate, which they have been making for a century.
That would be a stroke of genius IMO, supplying every battery, for every E.V magic.
Well like I say, that has done that debate to bits.

 

[JohnDe]

Your first statement is the reason, they haven't standardised, there isn't any profit in it, simple.
But you can't then say it is about efficiency, because it isn't, it is about profit.
You can't say it is about the best use of finite resources, it isn't, it is about profit.

How does a battery swap work for my little MG and my mate's Ford ute?
Obviously only I am listening to what the other person is saying, if you read my post #5640 you would have read quote:
If there were three sizes eg, small say 30Kwh, medium 50KWh and Large 80KWh for example that wouldn't be too hard.

I'm certainly getting the feeling, you're a more talk at you guy, than a discuss with you, sort of person.

Anyway to move on, which will probably end up being the end of the discussion.
If I was Elon Musk and he is a lot smarter than me, I would suggest I step back with my car making and on sell it to a manufacturer, because I want to focus on sustainability and I will suggest a battery standard is adopted and my gigafactories will supply them.
WOW then all the manufacturers don't have to worry about sourcing raw materials, making batteries which are the major cost, just have to make the roller skate, which they have been making for a century.
That would be a stroke of genius IMO, supplying every battery, for every E.V magic.
Well like I say, that has done that debate to bits.

Aah but there is a reason that you and I are not a Elon Musk, and he is the person that has changed the vehicle manufacturing world.

Again we get back to cost an infrastructure, the Chines company NIO started battery swap stations in 2019/20 for their vehicles. The current cost is US $500,000 for one size battery. I wonder what the cost would be for a 3 battery station would be?

Sustainability? The Tesla battery is one of the most produced EV battery in the world, the design and software is one of the most efficient in the world. Does that mean it should be the standard?

If it comes down to standardisation, should it not be up to the company that has changed the EV battery world?

I think not.

I believe that battery 'swap stations' are an inefficient use of resources, and adds cost to an industry that is trying to bring cost down so that the masses can buy into it. The aded cost comes from a the cost a huge infrastructure foot print an there added cost of having to hold and maintain stock.

Elon Musk has always been about bringing the cost of EV's down and their acceptability into mainstream.

 

[sptrawler]

Aah but there is a reason that you and I are not a Elon Musk, and he is the person that has changed the vehicle manufacturing world.

Again we get back to cost an infrastructure, the Chines company NIO started battery swap stations in 2019/20 for their vehicles. The current cost is US $500,000 for one size battery. I wonder what the cost would be for a 3 battery station would be?

Sustainability? The Tesla battery is one of the most produced EV battery in the world, the design and software is one of the most efficient in the world. Does that mean it should be the standard?

If it comes down to standardisation, should it not be up to the company that has changed the EV battery world?

I think not.

I believe that battery 'swap stations' are an inefficient use of resources, and adds cost to an industry that is trying to bring cost down so that the masses can buy into it. The aded cost comes from a the cost a huge infrastructure foot print an there added cost of having to hold and maintain stock.

Elon Musk has always been about bringing the cost of EV's down and their acceptability into mainstream.

Time will tell, but it is the obvious way to bring down costs IMO, as batteries are the major cost.
A bit like tyres, not many car manufacturers make tyres, but they all use them.
The thing that will differentiate E.V's IMO, will be the motor controls, the comfort and the efficient use of the battery.
So like I said we have probably done it to death, we see things from different perspectives, but neither of us knows, we just have opinions.

 

[Smurf1976]

What you have said there is exactly the reason, a standard battery format and housing makes perfect sense.

I'm in the middle here.

There's a benefit in battery standardisation regardless of whether they're swappable or not.

At present 12V car batteries come in a few standard sizes and then there's household AA, C, D etc batteries that are again standardised. That facilitates cheap and easy replacement, even a 50 year old device can easily be fitted with new batteries.

But go into the world of power tools where nothing's standard and it's very different. There'd be an awful lot of power tools in landfill for no reason other than the battery failed and was either too costly to replace, since a single supplier has a monopoly on one that fits, or simply isn't available at all.

From a corporate profit perspective custom batteries are great. Just change them every few years and that renders all the old gear unrepairable and keeps new product sales up.

From a consumer and environmental perspective standardisation wins absolutely since it creates the critical mass required for multiple manufacturers to offer compatible batteries and it means that any vehicle can have a new one fitted no matter how common or uncommon it is.

 

[sptrawler]

I cant understand the Im in the middle bit.
Isnt this whole excercise about maximum efficiency, minimum impact?
In the world of power tools, they all have the same tools, they all use different batteries, how that makes sense is beyond me, when we are trying to reduce wastage and duplication.

 

[JohnDe]

I cant understand the Im in the middle bit.
Isnt this whole excercise about maximum efficiency, minimum impact?
In the world of power tools, they all have the same tools, they all use different batteries, how that makes sense is beyond me, when we are trying to reduce wastage and duplication.

Stick with one brand.

 

[sptrawler]

Stick with one brand.

That kind of speaks for itself, what if you chose Black and Decker?
Please at least be sensible, if you want to have constructive debate.
You're saying your power tool should be sent to the tip, because the company went broke and no longer make the battery?

 

[JohnDe]

That kind of speaks for itself, what if you chose Black and Decker?
Please at least be sensible, if you want to have constructive debate.

Milwaukee Tool | Official Australia Site of Milwaukee Tool | Nothing but HEAVY DUTY®

Milwaukee Tools' great line up of power tools, hand tools and accessories are available in store and online through Authorised Milwaukee Retail Partners. | Milwaukee Australia

www.milwaukeetool.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

Milwaukee Tool | Official Australia Site of Milwaukee Tool | Nothing but HEAVY DUTY®

Milwaukee Tools' great line up of power tools, hand tools and accessories are available in store and online through Authorised Milwaukee Retail Partners. | Milwaukee Australia

www.milwaukeetool.com.au

Yep pretty well sums you up, buy the brand and hope like $hit they dont go broke, what a winning mantra. LOL
You new age guys crack me up.
What is so scary about having a common battery? No snob value.
Ive got a milwaukee drill, there is no way you can put it in your Ryobi skin, it might catch something. Lol

 

[JohnDe]

Yep pretty well sums you up, buy the brand and hope like $hit they dont go broke, what a winning mantra. LOL
You new age guys crack me up.
What is so scary about having a common battery? No snob value.

Oh dear, did I hurt your feelings? Poor Diddums

 

[sptrawler]

Oh dear, did I hurt your feelings? Poor Diddums

Not at all, your the one with the insecurity issues not me.
Ive been retired for years, Im not trying to impress my mates, with my car.Lol
Also what is that, did I hurt your feelings $hit princess, is that how you slap down your mates. Lol
You Tesla guys are starting to fit a mold.

 

[JohnDe]

Not at all, your the one with the insecurity issues not me.
Ive been retired for years, Im not trying to impress my mates, with my car.Lol
Also what is that, did I hurt your feelings $hit princess, is that how you slap down your mates. Lol
You Tesla guys are starting to fit a mold.

Well you’re trying to impress someone now, I’m guessing it’s Mrs. Palmer

 

[sptrawler]

Well you’re trying to impress someone now, I’m guessing it’s Mrs. Palmer

Well thats better than you and her five sisters lol, you are a real princess arent you.
Hey Ive got a Tesla and I use Milwaukee electric tools, you're real special mate.
I bet your personal assistant has to walk along side you with a full length mirror.

 

[JohnDe]

Well thats better than you and her five sisters lol, you are a real princess arent you.
Hey Ive got a Tesla and I use Milwaukee electric tools, you're real special mate.
I bet your personal assistant has to walk along side you with a full length mirror.

If you say so.

 

[sptrawler]

If you say so.

Well I just love your passive aggressive approach to issues, when people have differing opinions to you, but it does show not everyone has the same view on issues.
From memory, thats two for two.