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The car industries are asking for policies that are relevant to advancing the inevitable transition. That's completely political.Of course the car industry is asking for more assistance, if I was a vehicle manufacturer I would be looking for money to help with the transition of my business and look for anyone I could blame for the fact I can't make enough cars to meet demand.
That is logical, not political.
Your point was about a small market for RHDs...The third of the World that drives on the right hand side. is mainly made up of third world impoverished people i.e India, South Africa, which I actually alluded to in my post regarding the propensity of LHD vehicles are made for large first world wealthy consumers.
So really my case still stands the majority of manufacturing being built will be for Chinese, U.S and the EU LHD markets, despite disagreement.
How are hundreds of millions of units a small market?The right hand drive market is small on the World stage,
The RHD population base is over 2B, and the actual number of RHD ICEVs that will need to be replaced is over 300M. In the UK alone the RHD base is over 30M units, which is around twice the total number of NEVs so far manufactured globally and 30% greater than the total number of all cars produced annually in China.@rederob Im using the phone so I will keep the answer short.
How are a hundred million units a small market?'
Both China and India are producing NEVs from US$5k upwards, so we are not talking about a unilateral marketplace of the wealthy. The practice of car manufacturers will be similar to how it has always been, just as RHD Japan will make most of its export cars for LHD markets.Have you been to India? I have, the last thing they are doing is lining up to buy a $A 45,000 E.V
They would need a $A 40,000 incentive, so as I said earlier, the manufacturers wont be ramping up RHD production, while they are struggling to meet the demand for the lucrative LHD market, it is just perfect business sense nothing to do with politics.
This has been done to death. Neither you nor I pre-purchased our BEVs with a subsidy, and I got lucky after paying my deposit when QLD decided to offer $3k rebates that were for less expensive NEV purchases.However if the manufacturers can get the media and muppets on board, to get taxpayers to give them a leg up, well that's good business also.
An even bigger hurdle for exporters of vehicles to India is the high tarriffs.@rederob Im using the phone so I will keep the answer short.
How are a hundred million units a small market?
Well it is a small market if the 100million have stuff all money.
Have you been to India? I have, the last thing they are doing is lining up to buy a $A 45,000 E.V
They would need a $A 40,000 incentive, so as I said earlier, the manufacturers wont be ramping up RHD production, while they are struggling to meet the demand for the lucrative LHD market, it is just perfect business sense nothing to do with politics.
However if the manufacturers can get the media and muppets on board, to get taxpayers to give them a leg up, well that's good business also.
Definitely some missing.List of evs available in Australia. I think there might be some missing:
- MG ZS EV: $44,990
- Hyundai Ioniq Electric: $49,970
- Nissan Leaf: $49,990
- Hyundai Kona Electric Elite: $54,500
- MINI Electric: $55,650
- Hyundai Kona Electric Highlander: $58,000
- Polestar 2: $59,900
- Nissan Leaf e+: $60,490Kia Niro S: $62,590
- MINI Electric Yours: $62,825
- Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus: $63,900
- Kia EV6: $67,990
- Mazda MX-30: $65,490
- Kia Niro Sport: $70,990
- Tesla Model 3 Long Range: $76,200
- Volvo XC40 Recharge: $76,990
- Tesla Model 3 Performance: $88,900
- BMW i4: $99,900
- BMW iX3: $114,900
- Mercedes-Benz EQC: $124,300
- BMW i4 M50: $124,900
- Tesla Model S: $147,990
- Jaguar I-Pace: $149,990
- Audi E-Tron Sportback: $150,900
- Tesla Model X: $165,990
- Audi E-Tron S: $168,400
- Porsche Taycan: $174,695
- Tesla Model X Plaid: $174,990
- Porsche Taycan 4 Cross Turismo: $176,600
- BMW iX: $179,333
- Audi E-Tron GT: $181,700
- Tesla Model S Plaid: $186,990
- Porsche Taycan 4S: $194,700
- Porsche Taycan 4S Cross Turismo: $205,300
- Porsche Taycan Turbo: $276,300
- Porsche Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo: $279,000
- Porsche Taycan Turbo S: $345,800
Also the car I just pre-ordered:List of evs available in Australia. I think there might be some missing:
- MG ZS EV: $44,990
- Hyundai Ioniq Electric: $49,970
- Nissan Leaf: $49,990
- Hyundai Kona Electric Elite: $54,500
- MINI Electric: $55,650
- Hyundai Kona Electric Highlander: $58,000
- Polestar 2: $59,900
- Nissan Leaf e+: $60,490Kia Niro S: $62,590
- MINI Electric Yours: $62,825
- Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus: $63,900
- Kia EV6: $67,990
- Mazda MX-30: $65,490
- Kia Niro Sport: $70,990
- Tesla Model 3 Long Range: $76,200
- Volvo XC40 Recharge: $76,990
- Tesla Model 3 Performance: $88,900
- BMW i4: $99,900
- BMW iX3: $114,900
- Mercedes-Benz EQC: $124,300
- BMW i4 M50: $124,900
- Tesla Model S: $147,990
- Jaguar I-Pace: $149,990
- Audi E-Tron Sportback: $150,900
- Tesla Model X: $165,990
- Audi E-Tron S: $168,400
- Porsche Taycan: $174,695
- Tesla Model X Plaid: $174,990
- Porsche Taycan 4 Cross Turismo: $176,600
- BMW iX: $179,333
- Audi E-Tron GT: $181,700
- Tesla Model S Plaid: $186,990
- Porsche Taycan 4S: $194,700
- Porsche Taycan 4S Cross Turismo: $205,300
- Porsche Taycan Turbo: $276,300
- Porsche Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo: $279,000
- Porsche Taycan Turbo S: $345,800
Definitely some missing.
In reality though, huge waiting lists and no supply. Other countries are getting them in preference to us plus we are seen as a good dumping ground for old dieseel and petrol cars.
E.g. Kia recently bought 500 cars in and 10,000 tried to buy them.
Australia can't get enough of the Kia EV6. But neither can Kia...
How Kia's hottest ticket could be hamstrung by supply issueswww.whichcar.com.au
Just privately sold our 2020 Honda Odyssey via Carsales. Was purchased sight unseen from a small-restaurant owner in Adelaide, but after a $270 Redbook inspection and report the buyer paid for. It's just about to be loaded on its car carrier to be taken from Brisbane to Adelaide, also at the buyers cost. The guy from Redbook said he's never been so busy doing inspection/reports from interstate buyers because they can't get the stock they want locally.There is waiting lists on all new cars.
Try and purchase a Toyota - 9 to 12 months wait, depending on the model you want.
Talking to a guy yesterday, a dealership offered him $109,000 for his Land Cruiser, the exact price he paid for it. A new Cruiser is $139,000 with a 12 month wait. He made the deal.
All cars have a waiting list, there is world shortages and transport issues.
If I were a Chinese manufacturer, I would make the Chinese standard the world standard by having all Chinese vehicles to the same standard, and then produce so many vehicles that the rest of the world has to follow suit.Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries
Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries By Reuters
Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batterieswww.investing.com
now RV becomes more interesting ( to me )
my original concern was a battery failure , basically made your vehicle obsolete ( or up for an expensive repack )
nice one China , i suppose having standard connections ( across makes and models ) is too much to wish for
If I were a Chinese manufacturer, I would make the Chinese standard the world standard by having all Chinese vehicles to the same standard, and then produce so many vehicles that the rest of the world has to follow suit.
Just like the Americans did with many of their manufactured products.
Americans standards abound through aviation, electronics, radio frequency bandwidth uses, comms, GPS etc etc.
It is less so in cars these days, but US standards were once the norm.
The US is even going to metric fasteners in cars these days.
Mick
well i suspect a well-run organization will first run some checks on the battery ( batteries ) received to be swapped ( and recharged later ) so would think there will be more batteries waiting in the racks than expected customers say 10% to 20% more relying on newly received batteries will mostly be fit for recharging ( and recharged )How many batteries required to be waiting in storage?
What is the cost off a 'swap station'?
How many 'swap station' required and between what distances?
How does an owner know that their battery swap will be like for like (my battery could be 6 months old but the swap is 2 years)?
Will the manufacturer foot the bill of a 'swap station'?
well i suspect a well-run organization will first run some checks on the battery ( batteries ) received to be swapped ( and recharged later ) so would think there will be more batteries waiting in the racks than expected customers say 10% to 20% more relying on newly received batteries will mostly be fit for recharging ( and recharged )
now IF the charge/swap station is only relying on solar ( and wind ) input that percentage buffer might have to be higher
a further potential development could be a non-rechargable battery ( effectively a capacitor ) which would just be recycled ( but that might not be so popular
however an easily replacable battery to my mind is a good thing ( although vehicle salesmen may disagree )
i would also guess recharging at home ( or work ) would still be an option ( so battery swaps in many cases would be rarer than say visiting the petrol station )
ALSO remember there is still a push towards increased use of public transport , so EV use MIGHT be lower in some households
if the batteries remain generic ( not proprietary ) fittings , i would think China would have it government owned/run and just charge a fee for the service ( include it it the power infrastructure assets and reap a steady income ) , and maybe some other nations would follow that model .
now IF it was a government-run operation i would think there will be plenty of swap-stations .. eventually
if privately run/owned the stations would go up quicker , but liable to be less evenly distributed
It is an interesting concept and it isn't without precedent, people lease and swap out their their gas bottles. This ensures they are pressure tested when required, even the 9kg caravan bottles are now a swap out system, where 20 years ago people owned the bottle and when it expired it wasn't allowed to be refilled.So how many extra batteries will be required to stock ‘swap stations’, and how will the current shortage of raw materials for battery production affect pricing and stock?
Current industry standard is that battery degradation of up to 30% is acceptable. Would you be happy to have your near new 95% capacity battery swapped for another with 80%?
Are customers happy to lease their battery? This is the talk from Chinese industry: Drivers purchase a car but lease the battery, bringing cost of vehicle purchase down significantly and complaints of battery swaps down.
Are you willing to enter into a battery leasing agreement over the lifetime ownership of your vehicle?
It is an interesting concept and it isn't without precedent, people lease and swap out their their gas bottles. This ensures they are pressure tested when required, even the 9kg caravan bottles are now a swap out system, where 20 years ago people owned the bottle and when it expired it wasn't allowed to be refilled.
So in a lot of ways a battery swap system is quite a good idea, it ensures that the battery remains the property of a responsible entity, who ensure that it is always fit for purpose.
Once an E.V battery has died, there is every possibility the car may have its number plates removed and be abandoned, as happens now when repair costs more than the residual value of the car.
It is like many new appliances that come to market, it takes several years and compromises by the manufacturers, before efficiencies and cross product sharing occurs.
But having a standard range of common batteries, that cater to the various consumers requirements i.e multiple KWh sizes, makes a lot of sense IMO.
A bit like having common socket and voltage/amperage batteries for hand held power tools, rather than as now where the batteries are specific to a certain manufacturer, this is extremely inefficient.
I understand what you are saying, but it isn't just a case of a lick of paint, the bottle has to be taken to a facility to be tested to ensure there is not structural issues, if there are it has to be disposed of at another specific facility to ensure that it is done in a safe and correct manner.A gas bottle is just a vessel, a battery is very different. A lick of paint and the bottle is as good as new, whereas a battery’s condition is dependent on previous use and charging.
The question of how many batteries are required, is somewhat like how many charging stations are required, it will depend on the amount of vehicles the area is servicing.The idea of swapping came out several years ago, with China starting to build stations just before Covid struck. The idea is that EV owners charge when possible and time allows, and use swaps for all other occasions.
The removed battery is tested & recharged automatically in the swapping stations. Any failed battery packs are stacked in a separate location & collected and substituted with replacement items as required.
The biggest problem that no one has answered is, how many extra batteries will be required to have enough stock for all EVs using the scheme, and how much will this add to the cost & supply issues that are currently affecting battery manufacturers, especially due to material shortage which will take years to catch up.
Your traveling the wrong track.I understand what you are saying, but it isn't just a case of a lick of paint, the bottle has to be taken to a facility to be tested to ensure there is not structural issues, if there are it has to be disposed of at another specific facility to ensure that it is done in a safe and correct manner.
The question of how many batteries are required, is somewhat like how many charging stations are required, it will depend on the amount of vehicles the area is servicing.
The issue is how many times will you need to swap your battery, in the case of VC very very seldom, he will charge mainly at home, the same could be for you, so there is two you don't need to carry.
But there may be other people who have an E.V company car and is a travelling salesman that goes all over the city, or a taxi driver in a different make of E.V that runs 24/7, they may swap out every day.
So it would depend on the demographics of the population, but having the same swap out battery and mechanism in your Tesla as a Hyundai or a Polestar or whatever makes sense.
When you and VC in 7 years time find your range isn't what it used to be, you head down the swap shop, drive in and get a new battery in 5 minutes then off you go for the next 7 years hopefully.
I don't think you are looking at it from a holistic point of view, i think you may be thinking you swap the battery every charge, where this for most wouldn't be the case.
What you have said there is exactly the reason, a standard battery format and housing makes perfect sense.A ‘swap station’ requires complex infrastructure which includes robotics and testing equipment. Battery material is limited because the short sightedness of the big vehicle manufacturers, it will take years to ramp up mining and battery production. To make ’swap stations’ viable they would have to have enough batteries stock to replace hundreds each day at each location, this will cause a demand supply issue which will push up the price of materials and batteries.
In 7 years time my battery will be replaced under warranty, if there is an issue. After that I may have traded in, or replaced the battery at my cost from the savings of not having to have my car serviced, plus battery cost keep dropping every 6 months.
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