Electric cars?

European car market judges voted for their Car of the Year, and surprised themselves:
The Europeans typically vote with a bias towards their own country's products, but they were outclassed by an exotic.
The bad news for us is that despite 2 solid weeks of advertising in Australia in January this Car of the Year is actually impossible to buy at present.
If that doesn't tell ICEV owners where the future lies, then nothing will.

rederob said:

European car market judges voted for their Car of the Year, and surprised themselves:

The Europeans typically vote with a bias towards their own country's products, but they were outclassed by an exotic.
The bad news for us is that despite 2 solid weeks of advertising in Australia in January this Car of the Year is actually impossible to buy at present.
If that doesn't tell ICEV owners where the future lies, then nothing will.

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I think people who are just judging this ICE transition from a lounge chair, are going to be in for the shock of their lives, when they go to buy a new car. It is a whole new experience, whether that is fleeting or here to stay, who knows.

Value Collector said:

I still remember people thinking IPhones were a fad, and a toy for rich nerds, look at the phone market now though.

Now cars last longer than phones, so the uptake curb won’t be as steep, but the numbers of EV’s on the road will steadily rise, there is no way that ICE cars aren’t going to decline.

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The difference is, in the case of mobile phones, no one was urging the government to provide subsidies for the early wealthy uptakers to buy or lease their mobile phone.
Mick

mullokintyre said:

The difference is, in the case of mobile phones, no one was urging the government to provide subsidies for the early wealthy uptakers to buy or lease their mobile phone.
Mick

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Except for the phone towers and lines, especially to remote areas.

JohnDe said:

Except for the phone towers and lines, especially to remote areas.

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Well, there are no lines for Mobiles, and what subsidies were given for towers?
Mick

mullokintyre said:

The difference is, in the case of mobile phones, no one was urging the government to provide subsidies for the early wealthy uptakers to buy or lease their mobile phone.
Mick

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The Government have committed over $10 Billion in subsidies for the telecommunications network that those phones require to work though, So they have received a lot more support than Ev’s.

but also, you haven’t ever seen me say that Ev’s should be subsidised, all I have said is that we should refrain adding taxes extra taxes to them until they are more establish.

mullokintyre said:

Well, there are no lines for Mobiles, and what subsidies were given for towers?
Mick

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Yes there are, Mobile phone towers link into the normal land line grid.

So if you are calling some one on your mobile, the signal goes to your closest tower, then is fed into the land line grid and travels to the other persons nearest tower, then is sent from the tower to over the air to them.

Also, I would think at-least half mobile phone use these days happens on wifi, not all calls but the data use and video calls etc, and the land line/NBN has been heavily subsidised.

Value Collector said:

Yes there are, Mobile phone towers link into the normal land line grid.

So if you are calling some one on your mobile, the signal goes to your closest tower, then is fed into the land line grid and travels to the other persons nearest tower, then is sent from the tower to over the air to them.

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Unfortunately, your argument misses the point.
I said that no one suggested that mobile Phones be sudsided.
Your analogy is equivalent to arguing that the roads, or the filling/charging stations were subsided.
As to saying that reducing taxes is not a subsidy, try telling that to the people who argue that miners, farmers, tradies etc who get tax relief from diesel excise and GST are not getting subsidies.
Mick

I don't know why everyone is saying that the transition to E.V's isn't subsidised, or do you mean you want someone to help you buy one? That is two different things. ?
Apart from Victoria and Queensland, all the other States and the Feds seem to be pulling their weight.


The Australian Government wants to add 50,000 charging stations in homes across Australia in concert with the private sector, with the goal of getting 1.7 million electric vehicles on the road by 2030.
t has announced the $250 million Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy, of which $178 million is earmarked to support this rollout of infrastructure. A claimed 2600 jobs will be created over three years.
However, the Australian Government hasn’t announced any subsidies or tax incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles, nor has it confirmed any kind of EV targets or stop-sale date for internal combustion-powered vehicles.



A network of more than 500 charging points will be established across South Australia in a plan to make electric cars the first choice for buyers by 2030.

SA's peak motoring group, the Royal Automobile Association, has won a $12 million state government grant to establish 536 'fast' and 'rapid' charging stations across 140 rural, regional and metropolitan locations.



The WA government is putting forward $21 million to build Australia's longest EV charging network by 2024. It will have 90 fast-charging stations at 45 locations from Kununurra in the north, to Esperance in the south and east to Kalgoorlie. Electric vehicles can drive between 260km to 500km when fully charged


NSW has revealed it is committing $171 million toward building more than 1,000 EV charging stations in the state, as Australia accelerates its investment in low-emissions vehicles.


Then there is Queensland

The Queensland Government supported supercharger network will expand with 18 additional charging sites, with $2.75 million in new funding.

The rollout of these new sites, which will be sponsored by RACQ under a new partnership with the State Government, means EV drivers are good to go and explore Queensland this summer.”

Mr Bailey said the $2.5 million investment in 13 more charging stations was well advanced, with civil works completed at most sites.


And then there is Victoria.


The Victorian Government is calling for businesses, councils and community organisations to install electric vehicle charging stations across the state, with $5 million in funding to expand Victoria’s network of fast-chargers – including chargers that give electric vehicles enough power to drive 100km after ten minutes of charging.

mullokintyre said:

Well, there are no lines for Mobiles, and what subsidies were given for towers?
Mick

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Telstra, Optus and TPG are getting $13.2 million in federal funding to improve back-up power at 467 mobile phone towers across the country.

JohnDe said:

Telstra, Optus and TPG are getting $13.2 million in federal funding to improve back-up power at 467 mobile phone towers across the country.

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Once Again, it is the infrastructure, not the Mobile Phones, that are being subsidsed.
Everyone gets to use the infrastructure, regardless of their phone or EV.

Mick

mullokintyre said:

Once Again, it is the infrastructure, not the Mobile Phones, that are being subsidsed.
Everyone gets to use the infrastructure, regardless of their phone or EV.

Mick

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I didn’t get any subsidies when buying my EV.

JohnDe said:

I didn’t get any subsidies when buying my EV.

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I think that is the correct way to go, it is up to the manufacturers to sort out the pricing, if they can't sell cars then only the ones who make them efficiently will survive.
People need cars, if the price of an E.V doesn't stack up, people wont buy them, if the price of an ICE car and the cost to run it is the same as the E.V people will make a more circumspect choice.
Once one or the other gets subsidised it distorts the the market, will it collapse the value of ICE cars, will it encourage the manufacturers to just sit on their hands regarding development of the E.V's.
I think Australia is actually taking a very sensible middle of the road stance, we don't produce cars, so the cars will change as manufacturers transition across to E.V's, it is more important the infrastructure grows as the up take increases IMO.
Forcing the issue with subsidies, to speed the uptake, will just bring with it a lot of unforeseen growing pains IMO
I think it will happen a lot quicker than people think anyway.
There is a reason, that every other week, another classic car raffle pops up IMO. One there are plenty who want one and two, there are plenty who want to get rid of one.

My two cents worth.

mullokintyre said:

Unfortunately, your argument misses the point.
I said that no one suggested that mobile Phones be sudsided.
Your analogy is equivalent to arguing that the roads, or the filling/charging stations were subsided.
As to saying that reducing taxes is not a subsidy, try telling that to the people who argue that miners, farmers, tradies etc who get tax relief from diesel excise and GST are not getting subsidies.
Mick

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Firstly Ev owners do pay GST when they purchase electricity, so we aren’t avoiding GST, and as pointed out many times before the benefits of EVs can help reduce government spending on things like health care for air pollution, which is more than the total fuel excise anyway.

I didn’t say anything about reducing taxes, I said we should avoid adding more taxes to them, eg don’t bring in an EV tax atleast till after they are established.

Other than that I don’t think the government needs to do anything, except just stand out of the way and avoid saying stupid stuff.

JohnDe said:

I didn’t get any subsidies when buying my EV.

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I have no idea if you did or did not, but in post #4091 you said

It can make sense for governments to attract big employers because it shortens dole lines (reduces government spending) while increases the number of people paying income tax (increases government revenue).

I am not saying it makes sense in all cases, but the government investing in a few tax breaks and incentives here and there when done intelligently can actually provide good returns back to the tax payer.

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Which to me, sounds suspiciously like a call to provide subsidies.
Mick

mullokintyre said:

I have no idea if you did or did not, but in post #4091 you said


Which to me, sounds suspiciously like a call to provide subsidies.
Mick

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? I hope that you are better at investing than you are at accusations and fact finding.

mullokintyre said:

I have no idea if you did or did not, but in post #4091 you said


Which to me, sounds suspiciously like a call to provide subsidies.
Mick

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I made that comment not John De, and it’s true that is just a statement of fact, that incentives can make economic sense.

But I wasn’t suggesting that we need the government to subsidise EV’s.

It was just a general comment saying that government incentives can be good investments, if you go back and read the preceding comments I was replying to, you will see it was just a general comment, in fact it was ICE car subsidies being discussed.

Value Collector said:

all I have said is that we should refrain adding taxes extra taxes to them until they are more establish.

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Trouble is there's a political argument, which comes mostly from the far-Left end of the political spectrum (eg the Greens) which says failing to tax = subsidy.

I don't agree with it, but then I don't agree with most nonsense that comes from politicians but it is what it is, part of the big problem of politics having gotten involved in all this energy stuff where it really has no place at all.

mullokintyre said:

Your analogy is equivalent to arguing that the roads, or the filling/charging stations were subsided.
As to saying that reducing taxes is not a subsidy, try telling that to the people who argue that miners, farmers, tradies etc who get tax relief from diesel excise and GST are not getting subsidies.

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So tax cuts to the wealthy under the Coalition are examples of government subsidising the wealthy in your view?

JohnDe said:

? I hope that you are better at investing than you are at accusations and fact finding.

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My applogies, it was VC, not yourself who made the comment, I will sit in the naughty corner for two days.
Mick