Electric cars?

[luutzu]

Hi Iuutzu, remember when I told you about those scram jets, back on page 7, well Russia has just shown how well they work.

http://www.dw.com/en/russia-test-fires-hypersonic-kinzhal-missile/a-42929754

That will be liquid hydrogen, not batteries driving it. lol

Elon will beg to differ. Then will ask for another few billions to take on the ruskies with solar powered missiles - saving both democracy and the planet

Too much negative energy today.

 

[sptrawler]

Hi SPTrawler,

This is a thread about cars, not rockets. No-one is disputing that rockets will be propelled by hydrogen.

I was only responding to the car discussion a while back, where we were discussing the advantages of hydrogen over batteries as a fuel in cars and in general.
You probably weren't involved in it, at the time.

But getting back onto your input the other day, I noticed you mentioned hydrogen costs in California was about $14/kg.
That isn't bad actually, when you consider an average car running a H2 fuel cell, will do about 600Klm on 5kg of hydrogen.
So by your numbers:
5kg x $14 = $70 to do 600k's on hydrogen.
Petrol car 600/ 10kl/l = 60l @ $1.30/l works out to $78 on petrol.
So hydrogen works out cheaper than petrol, by your figures.
Also it will only take a couple of minutes to fill up, makes batteries look a bit limp.

 

[brty]

Hydrogen at $US13/kg = ~$A16.66/kg. X 5 = $83 for about 500km. The standard seems to be about 100km/kg, Toyota Mirai 502km on about 5kg.

"Hydrogen gas is sold by the kilogram instead of the gallon and at the station we used to fill the Mirai in La Canada, Calif., it was $16.63 per kilogram. The Mirai was three-quarters empty at that point and the tanks hold around 5 kilograms of hydrogen, so it took 3.81 kilograms to fill back it up at a cost of $63.51. The trip meter read 195.3 miles at that point. That put the cost per mile at around $0.33."
from...
https://www.cars.com/articles/fill-er-up-refueling-the-2016-toyota-mirai-1420690448036/

500km on batteries will cost me precisely nothing from existing solar panels that have already paid for themselves.
Assuming I have to use offpeak power at 20c/kwh, it will cost $A20 for 100Kwh, which would go close to 500km (Tesla model S 335km for 60Kwh)

Hydrogen looks limp on those numbers.

 

[Value Collector]

Lithium batteries will certainly be recycled,

And thats the older batteries, The newer Tesla batteries will last about 25 years, longer than the cars life after that the could be repurposed as in the video above, and eventually fully recycled back into a new battery.

 

[Value Collector]

That put the cost per mile at around $0.33."
from....

That is expensive, even if you had to pay $.30 per KWH for electric, the cost per mile in a Tesla model 3 would be about 7cents.

But as you pointed out, with Home Solar, off peak charging or AGL's $1 per day scheme, it would be much cheaper.

 

[sptrawler]

Hydrogen at $US13/kg = ~$A16.66/kg. X 5 = $83 for about 500km. The standard seems to be about 100km/kg, Toyota Mirai 502km on about 5kg.

"Hydrogen gas is sold by the kilogram instead of the gallon and at the station we used to fill the Mirai in La Canada, Calif., it was $16.63 per kilogram. The Mirai was three-quarters empty at that point and the tanks hold around 5 kilograms of hydrogen, so it took 3.81 kilograms to fill back it up at a cost of $63.51. The trip meter read 195.3 miles at that point. That put the cost per mile at around $0.33."
from...
https://www.cars.com/articles/fill-er-up-refueling-the-2016-toyota-mirai-1420690448036/

500km on batteries will cost me precisely nothing from existing solar panels that have already paid for themselves.
Assuming I have to use offpeak power at 20c/kwh, it will cost $A20 for 100Kwh, which would go close to 500km (Tesla model S 335km for 60Kwh)

Hydrogen looks limp on those numbers.

Actually, I would say, with your costings, hydrogen will overtake batteries much sooner than I thought.
Batteries have the jump on hydrogen, because of availability and minimal infrastructure requirement.
But it won't be long before companies recognise the commercial side of manufacturing hydrogen, especially when millions of car batteries are taken to the tip.
Just my opinion, time will tell.

 

[Value Collector]

5kg x $14 = $70 to do 600k's on hydrogen.

That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.

 

[sptrawler]

That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.

I agree, that is about a third the cost of a petrol vehicle, to do the same klm.
If battery cars can get the recharge time down to 5-10minutes, there will be a rapid uptake, if they can't theirs will be a slow death.IMO

 

[luutzu]

That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.

I don't think it's next to nothing even on your own home's solar panels.

Unless the likes of AGL change their current plan and want to not make money... but as it stands, the power from your panels are "bought" by AGL at some 7cents... they sell "their power" back to you at, i don't know, 22 cents or whatever their smart meter figured is peak or not.

It's not like what the solar guy told us... i.e. during the day all the power we use are from the solar panel and only buy more if we use more than what's produced.

With battery packs for the home... unless it's wired differently, and permitted... I'm betting power from the solar somehow flow back to the grid first, then come back into your pack at a higher cost.

 

[luutzu]

That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.

btw, know how Tesla reckon electric cars don't need that much servicing because it have less parts etc....

How come there's a lot of service appointments and stuff I saw on YT.

 

[Value Collector]

I agree, that is about a third the cost of a petrol vehicle, to do the same klm.
If battery cars can get the recharge time down to 5-10minutes, there will be a rapid uptake, if they can't theirs will be a slow death.IMO

As I explained earlier, they don’t need to charge that fast, you can just plug it in when you park it, and start each day with a full charge, going to a petrol station once or twice a week for 10mins is a big waste of time.

Only time that you might have to wait for charging is road trips, but if you start with a full battery you can travel 680 kilometers with only stopping for 15mins, and who doesn’t stop for 15 mins at least once in 680 kilometers?

 

[Value Collector]

I don't think it's next to nothing even on your own home's solar panels.

Unless the likes of AGL change their current plan and want to not make money... but as it stands, the power from your panels are "bought" by AGL at some 7cents... they sell "their power" back to you at, i don't know, 22 cents or whatever their smart meter figured is peak or not.

It's not like what the solar guy told us... i.e. during the day all the power we use are from the solar panel and only buy more if we use more than what's produced.

With battery packs for the home... unless it's wired differently, and permitted... I'm betting power from the solar somehow flow back to the grid first, then come back into your pack at a higher cost.

It costs $26.50 to do 600kms and that’s if you paid $0.30 per kWh, based on the 7cents solar buy back you quoted, you use the amount of power you could sell for $4.90, I consider that next to nothing.

Your last paragraph is just fantasy, you are so cynical, do you even research your opinions?

 

[Value Collector]

btw, know how Tesla reckon electric cars don't need that much servicing because it have less parts etc....

How come there's a lot of service appointments and stuff I saw on YT.

Because only Tesla do the service and warranty stuff, and there is only one service center in each city, unlike the multiple company and after market service centers for the other cars.

 

[sptrawler]

As I explained earlier, they don’t need to charge that fast, you can just plug it in when you park it, and start each day with a full charge, going to a petrol station once or twice a week for 10mins is a big waste of time.

Only time that you might have to wait for charging is road trips, but if you start with a full battery you can travel 680 kilometers with only stopping for 15mins, and who doesn’t stop for 15 mins at least once in 680 kilometers?

The problem is, it is the same as why people stay with Telstra, even though all other providers have cheaper plans.
Telstra has the best mobile coverage, so people who live in the city and never go to the country say, well you never know we might go.

Look I've said it before, I like electricity I'm a sparky, so it is a win win situation for me.

All I'm talking about is the logical energy source, taking the obvious money considerations out, that will be easy to charge people for and good for the enviroment.

What your talking about, is what is the cheapest and easiest, that won't matter a $hit if the multinationals decide they can swap from oil to hydrogen.LOL

 

[luutzu]

Because only Tesla do the service and warranty stuff, and there is only one service center in each city, unlike the multiple company and after market service centers for the other cars.

Are the service frequent? By watching YT, it seems about the same number as current fossil based cars.

New fossil cars don't need any servicing, really, in the first 5 years. Beside oil change, air filters and maybe tyre if it's driven enough.

So anyway, was wondering why the (seemingly) frequent checkups with Tesla.

 

[Value Collector]

The problem is, it is the same as why people stay with Telstra, even though all other providers have cheaper plans.
Telstra has the best mobile coverage, so people who live in the city and never go to the country say, well you never know we might go.

They have electricity in the country already, its super easy to install a charging station, actually much easier and cheaper than building petrol station,

Hell, you can just plug into a regular power point if needs be.

 

[Value Collector]

Are the service frequent? By watching YT, it seems about the same number as current fossil based cars.

New fossil cars don't need any servicing, really, in the first 5 years. Beside oil change, air filters and maybe tyre if it's driven enough.

So anyway, was wondering why the (seemingly) frequent checkups with Tesla.

 

[luutzu]

It costs $26.50 to do 600kms and that’s if you paid $0.30 per kWh, based on the 7cents solar buy back you quoted, you use the amount of power you could sell for $4.90, I consider that next to nothing.

Your last paragraph is just fantasy, you are so cynical, do you even research your opinions?

We solar panels installed, we also know others who have them installed too.

The sales pitch was that it saves money because during the day, especially sunny days, the power you use come directly from your own panels. i.e. if the panels produce, say, 100kWh and you use 120kWh on the day, the first 100 is "free" with you only paying for the last 20.

Often you don't use that much so you sell it back and make some money no matter the price they're paying.

That's not what happen.

I pay the bills and it work like this: Your panels produce 100kWh... that's sold to the supplier at whatever rate they want to pay for it.

You usage are all bought from them, at their higher rate.


Soo... that's just me stating what I see as facts from the bills.

For solar battery packs... Like I said, unless it's wired independently or such... I don't see why the supplier wouldn't pull the same stunt they are doing with solar panels.

Don't know man, maybe they don't or won't do it because that's unfair. Maybe they will because that's probably the easiest way to make money.

 

[Value Collector]

We solar panels installed, we also know others who have them installed too.

The sales pitch was that it saves money because during the day, especially sunny days, the power you use come directly from your own panels. i.e. if the panels produce, say, 100kWh and you use 120kWh on the day, the first 100 is "free" with you only paying for the last 20.

Often you don't use that much so you sell it back and make some money no matter the price they're paying.

That's not what happen.

I pay the bills and it work like this: Your panels produce 100kWh... that's sold to the supplier at whatever rate they want to pay for it.

You usage are all bought from them, at their higher rate.


Soo... that's just me stating what I see as facts from the bills.

For solar battery packs... Like I said, unless it's wired independently or such... I don't see why the supplier wouldn't pull the same stunt they are doing with solar panels.

Don't know man, maybe they don't or won't do it because that's unfair. Maybe they will because that's probably the easiest way to make money.

No that’s not quite right,

If the sun is up, and you are producing solar power, your house runs off the panels.

Any extra power that you don’t use, gets sold at your sell rate.

Once the sun goes down, or if you are using more than your panels are producing you will draw from he grid at your buy rate.

So the power you produce goes

1st to cover your own usage (at that moment)

2nd sold to the grid,

 

[luutzu]

Not that those fortunate enough to buy any of the luxury cars there care much for dollars and sense, oopps, cents But I wouldn't be measuring the maintenance costs of owning a Tesla or any of those others the way the guy did.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he compare the pre-paid, insurance premium, service payment. Right?

That's not the actual costs of maintenance/repair though.

I mean, yes, true, the cost is whatever you pre-paid for etc. But think of it from a cheap guy like me who wouldn't be sold any of those road-side assist car care package, and forget about the properly licensed service centre charging $250 for an oil change.

The actual maintenance costs would be how much would it cost the average owner of a Tesla vs Merc to repair/fix over, say a 5 year period if they don't take on the maintenance packages/insurance.