Electric cars?

[Value Collector]

Which basically goes back to what we have been saying, get the charging technology right, before you get too far ahead of yourself with the uptake.
A bit like building a city in the middle of the desert, then trying to working out where you are going to get your water from.

Uptake will be so gradual, and the charging technology so easy, I can't see there being any issues.

 

[Value Collector]

Overview of early electric cars (1895-1925)​

Overview of Early Electric Cars (1895-1925)

One hundred years ago electric cars were a common sight on city streets in Europe and the United States.

www.lowtechmagazine.com

the ability to go extended distances with short gaps for refuelling would have swung some buyers towards petrol and diesel

Not to mention that the Electric light bulb had just destroyed the oil industries main business at the time which was Kerosine for lamps, So the Oil industry was looking for an alternative business to enter to save their selves, pushing combustion engines vehicles was their way of saving them selves.

This video tells the story of how the electric light bulb nearly killed the oil industry, but cars pulled it back from the edge of ruin.

 

[sptrawler]

Overview of early electric cars (1895-1925)​

Overview of Early Electric Cars (1895-1925)

One hundred years ago electric cars were a common sight on city streets in Europe and the United States.

www.lowtechmagazine.com

the ability to go extended distances with short gaps for refuelling would have swung some buyers towards petrol and diesel

Yes we talked about this a long time ago in the thread, the electric car was actually out before the petrol car, but energy density came into play and petrol won out.
However the difference today is technology, energy density is still an issue with BEV's, but electrical infrastructure, I.T technology, cheap air travel, rail & public transport plus climate change are now outweighing the need for personal transport to be able to cover long distances.
It is still a big issue in Australia, but not so in most Western Countries, the benefit Australia has is they can ride the shirt tails of other countries that are more suited to BEV's and are therefore accelerating the uptake.

 

[divs4ever]

well without the incessant thirst for petrol ( and diesel oil , bio-fuels were already known and used ) where would be now

*** I hope we never lose sight of one thing, It all started from delivering newspapers as a child. ***

newspapers were my third gig , letterbox delivery and lawn-mowing came first for me

 

[sptrawler]

Uptake will be so gradual, and the charging technology so easy, I can't see there being any issues.

Agree completely, what people have to understand is it isn't as easy as saying charge during the day or in the middle of the night.
If we are going to shut down fossil fueled generation, the renewable solar generation during the day, is charging the batteries that run the grid overnight, so it is a simple equation you can't charge the cars during the day and the batteries to run the grid during the day, without twice as much renewables.
The same equation works overnight, if you want to charge the BEV's overnight without fossil fuel, you have to use the grid batteries you charged during the day, if they were charging BEV's during the day, the grid batteries would be flat overnight.
So in reality it takes a lot of renewables and a lot of storage and a lot of clever engineering to make it all work together, this is what the fanatics are having trouble grasping.
As @Smurf1976 says, it can be done, but it will have to be technology driven, not emotionally or politically driven.

 

[sptrawler]

*** I hope we never lose sight of one thing, It all started from delivering newspapers as a child. ***

newspapers were my third gig , letterbox delivery and lawn-mowing came first for me

I came from poor beginnings, I delivered papers from a pushbike in bloody cold weather at 5am in the morning, then caught the school bus at 7am, after 6 months of doing it I asked my mum for the money I'd saved, she said sorry son we had to use it for groceries. lol I was 12 years old. Times were tough in the mid 1960's

 

[divs4ever]

Yes we talked about this a long time ago in the thread, the electric car was actually out before the petrol car, but energy density came into play and petrol won out.
However the difference today is technology, energy density is still an issue with BEV's, but electrical infrastructure, I.T technology, cheap air travel, rail & public transport plus climate change are now outweighing the need for personal transport to be able to cover long distances.
It is still a big issue in Australia, but not so in most Western Countries, the benefit Australia has is they can ride the shirt tails of other countries that are more suited to BEV's and are therefore accelerating the uptake.

not a HUGE issue in Australia though , many vehicles rarely travel more than 100 km a day , a sensible society would keep all efficient types ( in Australia ) we already have several grades of petrol and diesel , and gas , and battery recharges COULD happen at home or work ( or maybe become a feature at motels )

i don't know if Brisbane public transport has improved much , but they were rarely useful for work duties , unreliable , never stop particularly close to where you needed to be ( even when changing buses/trains ) jogging or cycling was a much better option ( for me )

we USED to have ( electric ) trolley buses and trams , i believe Melbourne and Canberra still have trams so we are NOT re-inventing the wheel , but we might have to face the reality QLD will never be 100% BEV but above 50% is surely possible

it really doesn't have to be all or nothing in Australia , 100% BEV in Holland , Singapore or Hong Kong yes a pretty good chance

 

[sptrawler]

not a HUGE issue in Australia though , many vehicles rarely travel more than 100 km a day , a sensible society would keep all efficient types ( in Australia ) we already have several grades of petrol and diesel , and gas , and battery recharges COULD happen at home or work ( or maybe become a feature at motels )

i don't know if Brisbane public transport has improved much , but they were rarely useful for work duties , unreliable , never stop particularly close to where you needed to be ( even when changing buses/trains ) jogging or cycling was a much better option ( for me )

we USED to have ( electric ) trolley buses and trams , i believe Melbourne and Canberra still have trams so we are NOT re-inventing the wheel , but we might have to face the reality QLD will never be 100% BEV but above 50% is surely possible

it really doesn't have to be all or nothing in Australia , 100% BEV in Holland , Singapore or Hong Kong yes a pretty good chance

That is all very true, but our society relies on electricity far beyond what people realise, if the system crashes sewage pumping crashes, suburb dewatering pumps stop, traffic lights stop, emergency services stop, pressurised water at your toilet and taps stops, petrol pumps stop, actually most things run on electricity so most things stop .
So it isn't about BEV's really, it is about having a reliable electrical supply system, if that fails society fails probably three days later.

 

[divs4ever]

I came from poor beginnings, I delivered papers from a pushbike in bloody cold weather at 5am in the morning, then caught the school bus at 7am, after 6 months of doing it I asked my mum for the money I'd saved, she said sorry son we had to use it for groceries. lol I was 12 years old. Times were tough in the mid 1960's

ditto .. but my parents never had any idea what money i was making ( i didn't trust the banks even back then )

on the flipside it gave me a great insight into human nature and business , and my parents we incredibly annoyed when i bought the first bike out of my own savings BEFORE the paper run ( turns out it would have been half my dad's weekly wage , made from the leaflet run and mowing business they never knew i had )

 

[divs4ever]

That is all very true, but our society relies on electricity far beyond what people realise, if the system crashes sewage pumping crashes, suburb dewatering pumps stop, traffic lights stop, emergency services stop, pressurised water at your toilet and taps stops, petrol pumps stop, actually most things run on electricity so most things stop .
So it isn't about BEV's really, it is about having a reliable electrical supply system, if that fails society fails probably three days later.

but , but we could have solar doing the bulk of the recharging work say solar arrays covering the employee parking ( with battery storage of course , for those days that are stormy

car recharging OFF-grid would be a natural precaution .. but then commonsense isn't all that common

and we have more than 100 years to have sorted our these problems ( but haven't ) we would rather build space stations instead of more efficient electric motors and batteries

 

[sptrawler]

but , but we could have solar doing the bulk of the recharging work say solar arrays covering the employee parking ( with battery storage of course , for those days that are stormy

car recharging OFF-grid would be a natural precaution .. but then commonsense isn't all that common

and we have more than 100 years to have sorted our these problems ( but haven't ) we would rather build space stations instead of more efficient electric motors and batteries

Very true but if we have overpopulated and stuffed this planet, there is every chance we are trying to find somewhere else to go, that's human nature. ?
The problem with solar arrays is energy production not cost, the problem with batteries is energy density not availability, electric motors are very efficient if they are sized correctly, that is why we have them in most applications.

 

[Value Collector]

Agree completely, what people have to understand is it isn't as easy as saying charge during the day or in the middle of the night.
If we are going to shut down fossil fueled generation, the renewable solar generation during the day, is charging the batteries that run the grid overnight, so it is a simple equation you can't charge the cars during the day and the batteries to run the grid during the day, without twice as much renewables.
The same equation works overnight, if you want to charge the BEV's overnight without fossil fuel, you have to use the grid batteries you charged during the day, if they were charging BEV's during the day, the grid batteries would be flat overnight.
So in reality it takes a lot of renewables and a lot of storage and a lot of clever engineering to make it all work together, this is what the fanatics are having trouble grasping.
As @Smurf1976 says, it can be done, but it will have to be technology driven, not emotionally or politically driven.

Wind and Hydro work over night.

check out this link, it shows how much of each power source we are using updated every 5 minutes, you we regularly produce a lot of wind power through out nights.

Live Australian Electricity Generation Source Statistics

Live Australian Electricity Generation Statistics: See the amount of electricity being generated in Australia & its source: e.g. wind energy & solar power

www.energymatters.com.au

 

[Value Collector]

*** I hope we never lose sight of one thing, It all started from delivering newspapers as a child. ***

newspapers were my third gig , letterbox delivery and lawn-mowing came first for me

My investment portfolio started with funds earned delivering papers, so I modified one of my favourite Walt Disney Qoutes.

 

[sptrawler]

Wind and Hydro work over night.

check out this link, it shows how much of each power source we are using updated every 5 minutes, you we regularly produce a lot of wind power through out nights.

Live Australian Electricity Generation Source Statistics

Live Australian Electricity Generation Statistics: See the amount of electricity being generated in Australia & its source: e.g. wind energy & solar power

www.energymatters.com.au

Hydro is storage, wind on the East coast usually is low, when solar generation is low, but nice pick up.
Check out @Smurf1976 reports on solar wind generation norms.
Goes back to the technical analysis, rather than the emotional, which you generally lean toward the technical.

 

[Value Collector]

Hydro is storage, wind on the East coast usually is low, when solar generation is low, but nice pick up.
Check out @Smurf1976 reports on solar wind generation norms.

hydro isn’t just storage, it is primary generation mostly.

Did you check out the wind energy being produced right now, its a fairly decent chunk and that will probably be humming right through the night.

Gas can also fill in the gaps, and coal will be there for a fair while to.

As I have said before, replacing petrol will a mixture of coal, hydro, wind and solar is much better than using the petrol which is basically 100% fossil fuels.

 

[sptrawler]

Did you check out the wind energy being produced right now, its a fairly decent chunk and that will probably be humming right through the night.

Gas can also fill in the gaps, and coal will be there for a fair while to.

As I have said before, replacing petrol will a mixture of coal, hydro, wind and solar is much better than using the petrol which is basically 100% fossil fuels.

Now you are moving the goal posts, one minute you are talking renewables and BEV's, now you are back filling with gas and coal, for gods sake don't go all rederob on me.
FFS you can't say a really good night is the norm, or a really bad night is the norm, people need electricity not warm feel good $hit. OMG
Imagine if FMG said we are going to invest $25billion into BEV's in Australia, it will cost the shareholders their shirt, but it is great for the country and the world in general. You would say WTF.
I mean put your feet on the ground and think of it as an investment, because if it isn't, either the tax payer fails or the plan fails, stop putting your love of the car in front of your power of reasoning.
I'll tell you how silly some of it is, my wife and I bought segway ninebot ES2 scooters three years ago, we bought extender range batteries for them, now three years later.
I sold mine a year ago and bought a ninebot max from Melbourne, but the wife's has had a problem the main battery wont take a charge, so easy buy another?
Not so easy no one makes the module so it will be up to me, but the main take take from this is they use 20 off 18650 lithium battery cells.
Your Tesla uses 16,444 of them. ?
the good thing is I'm a sparky and will fix it.

 

[Value Collector]

Now you are moving the goal posts, one minute you are talking renewables and BEV's, now you are back filling with gas and coal, for gods sake don't go all rederob on me.
FFS you can't say a really good night is the norm, or a really bad night is the norm, people need electricity not warm feel good $hit. OMG

I don’t think I have ever claimed Australia would be 100% renewables any time soon, and I certainly haven’t claimed that electric cars required 100% renewables for them to be a valid alternative to petrol and diesel.

In fact I have said repeatedly “Never let perfect be the enemy of good”, what I mean by that is that even though we use coal and Gas on the grid, it isn’t a reason to avoid BEVs.

——————————-
I have said that my personal car is almost 100% solar powered, which is true. but I haven’t claimed that the whole vehicle fleet will be carbon neutral, I don’t think it needs to be carbon neutral from day one, it just needs to less carbon intensive than the petrol and diesel, which it would be.

 

[Value Collector]

Also it’s not just one night, Victoria and south Australia regularly produce large amounts of wind power through the night and when they don’t NSW and TAS often open up the taps on their hydro.

and the trend is for Wind , solar and batteries to keep growing.

as I said I don’t see an issue.

 

[divs4ever]

well CCE is still floundering around with wave technology ( i hold CCE ) and Australia has plenty on coastline , and over half the population lives not that far from a coast

am not saying it is the answer but we have some tech ( home-grown ) that could be developed further

also Australia doesn't seem to believe much in geo-thermal , maybe we are missing something there ( especially in the inland )

 

[divs4ever]

Also it’s not just one night, Victoria and south Australia regularly produce large amounts of wind power through the night and when they don’t NSW and TAS often open up the taps on their hydro.

and the trend is for Wind , solar and batteries to keep growing.

as I said I don’t see an issue.

the issue will probably arise when one poor fool ( politician) mandates , instead of cost efficiency being persuasive , and the change will be progressive