Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

What really wouldn't be good is to put a substantial number of vehicles and chargers out there and then find out there's a problem with them requiring some sort of crude, messy and expensive workaround as has ended up being the case with solar at least in one state.

So yes, get it right as early on as possible definitely.

That could happen so easily if there was a massive government incentive scheme put in place, IMO it would end up an absolute shambles, the BEV's really do have to work together and to do that takes a lot of planning.
If they can be used as grid storage, it will make them a brilliant asset, for the renewables.

 

[over9k]

Yeah, grid storage that discharges when you plug it in after getting home from work and firing up the stove/tv/heater/etc that then flips over to charging from 10pm-7am or something like that and you have it nailed.

Only problem is that batteries can obviously go through so many charge/discharge cycles before being kaput, but it sure beats installing a powerwall/battery bank at your house.

Problem is a normal 240v socket just doesn't have the juice to do this so we'd either be looking at the whole grid becoming 3 phase or... something else.

I suspect this area would be @sptrawler's wheelhouse

 

[qldfrog]

That could happen so easily if there was a massive government incentive scheme put in place, IMO it would end up an absolute shambles, the BEV's really do have to work together and to do that takes a lot of planning.
If they can be used as grid storage, it will make them a brilliant asset, for the renewables.

Overall, a dream solution: renewable pumping power into the grid, sucked by cars, then reused during the night from the car batteries until early morning which bring back the issues:


By 7 am the BEV is empty or not fully charged during the morning commute, or long trip to see auntie in her covid 31 secured aged care on the GC
So you as the BEV owner need to keep control ..which politics being what they are now will quickly become a socialism vs individual freedom battle.
The other part less publicized is that this transfers costs onto the bev owner.
A charge discharge cycle is not free, we have a ,from memory ,10% loss between grid loss, charger loss,and actual chemical reaction loss..in heat...i did a full number analysis about that in a post here long ago.
So the BEV owner needs to receive more for his feedin tariff than consumption, and by a bit if you include actual asset costs.
Then a charge discharge cycle destroy your battery and charger.even the best latest ones.it is not consequences free.

I believe the BEV owners are lining up to become the next suckers.add a new tax for EV via rego and the car drivers will remain the cash cows ,they are now , not only for governments.. but also for power companies.
Sad
i hope it will be quickly possible for household to work disconnected from the grid and become autonomous but suspect we will still be made to pay,
as here in Qld for water where in Brisbane area, you are charged 1k a year without being connected to the water grid/sewerage...because the grid is available to you....
Time will tell but less and less keen to go EV as this develops.

 

[Macquack]

as here in Qld for water where in Brisbane area, you are charged 1k a year without being connected to the water grid/sewerage...because the grid is available to you....

Could you elaborate on the "1k a year"? Are you referring to council rates?

 

[SirRumpole]

The cars of the future. The highs and lows.

Cars of the future: The hype, the high hopes, and the sobering reality

Are everyday driverless, electric cars just around the corner? Is a car sharing revolution underway? Why some of the hype around the future of car travel hasn't become reality just yet, and the challenges we need to overcome.

www.abc.net.au

"How green an electric car is, compared to a petrol car, depends on how green the grid is you're charging it [from]," Kilvert says.


There are calls for a national rollout of fast charging sites like this one at Yass.(ABC: Ben Deacon)
Your home solar might be able to help.

"However, electric cars, they have huge batteries, they need a lot of energy to charge those batteries — more than any household solar system array can provide," Kilvert says.

"So you're still going to need supplementary power … and that usually means some element of dirty fuel."

There are also issues of the demands on the power network. One charging station built in Adelaide a few years ago was equivalent to adding 100 new homes to the grid.

The US is experimenting with using an electric car as a back up battery for excess solar power, that can then be fed into the grid at times of high demand."

 

[rederob]

Yes, @qldfrog is referring to council rates as water and sewerage fixed costs are a huge component here (probably elsewhere too).
Even if we were electricity and water self sufficient we cannot avoid the fixed fees.

@qldfrog's other points are just part of his ongoing spleen event against renewables.
It will be many years before the overnight drain of electricity from the grid into BEVs is close to a problem, and planning for the scenario has been underway for some time, as is shown in the below graphic from AEMO's ISP:


So the challenge over coming years is to better manage the integration of distributed energy resources into the grid, as @Smurf1976 has elaborated on many times.

 

[Value Collector]

The cars of the future. The highs and lows.

"However, electric cars, they have huge batteries, they need a lot of energy to charge those batteries — more than any household solar system array can provide," Kilvert says.

My own experience disproves what this guy said.

He is assuming that the average person will be charging from 0% to 100% every day, but almost no one burns an entire tank of fuel each day, on average it takes people 7 to 9 days to use a full tank of fuel.

So if it took you 7 to 10 days to use a full battery even the smallest solar systems could produce more than enough to keep you charged.

I just got my latest Electricity bill, and I got a $15 credit and that’s with an electric car, electric hot water, heavy use of Aircon, electric cooking and everything else.

some of these people just don’t think before they speak, and are spreading a lot of misinformation that gets repeated constantly.

I have an 8.2 KWH system so it’s a little larger than average, but it produces easily much much more than is required to charge the car, The Air con actually uses more than my car.

 

[qldfrog]

@Macquack Sadly no, we are not taking rate but the SE QLD Uniwater monopoly employing the old Labour mayor of Brisbane and other rotten politicians:
when you are in an area where you can be connected to the water grid and sewerage , while NOT connected with 0 usage, you still have to fork out currently roughly $1k a year.For my warehouse, the amount was last March $252.11 a quarter.yep no use, no sewerage connected, no pipe connected, just because they have a pipe going past your block.
I nearly though about sending them a bill for website maintenance I can potentially offer them [if they want to....]
This is not unheard of in our new Reset in progress world. So I expect within 10y to see people paying a "could be connected " electricity bill if they try to get off the grid in places where the infrastructure exists.

 

[rederob]

My own experience disproves what this guy said.

He is assuming that the average person will be charging from 0% to 100% every day, but almost no one burns an entire tank of fuel each day, on average it takes people 7 to 9 days to use a full tank of fuel.

So if it took you 7 to 10 days to use a full battery even the smallest solar systems could produce more than enough to keep you charged.

I just got my latest Electricity bill, and I got a $15 credit and that’s with an electric car, electric hot water, heavy use of Aircon, electric cooking and everything else.

some of these people just don’t think before they speak, and are spreading a lot of misinformation that gets repeated constantly.

I have an 8.2 KWH system so it’s a little larger than average, but it produces easily much much more than is required to charge the car, The Air con actually uses more than my car.

We wanted to add more solar panels, but it would breach our existing FID contract arrangement (52 cents/Kw).
And I know it is off topic, but just installed 3x37watt DC fans to reduce aircon use. Running at level 2 - 9watts - throws out greater airflow than the previous 80watt AC fans running flat out, plus is dead quiet. Running these DC fans flat out means paperwork flies off tables!
Now we just need a quiet DC refrigerator and pool pump and our electricity bills would flatline.

 

[orr]

The cars of the future. The highs and lows.

Cars of the future: The hype, the high hopes, and the sobering reality

Are everyday driverless, electric cars just around the corner? Is a car sharing revolution underway? Why some of the hype around the future of car travel hasn't become reality just yet, and the challenges we need to overcome.

www.abc.net.au

"How green an electric car is, compared to a petrol car, depends on how green the grid is you're charging it [from]," Kilvert says.


There are calls for a national rollout of fast charging sites like this one at Yass.(ABC: Ben Deacon)
Your home solar might be able to help.

"However, electric cars, they have huge batteries, they need a lot of energy to charge those batteries — more than any household solar system array can provide," Kilvert says.

"So you're still going to need supplementary power … and that usually means some element of dirty fuel."

There are also issues of the demands on the power network. One charging station built in Adelaide a few years ago was equivalent to adding 100 new homes to the grid.

The US is experimenting with using an electric car as a back up battery for excess solar power, that can then be fed into the grid at times of high demand."

Dr Nunes, if quoted correctly, clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. On Feb 3 in an interveiw with Sandy Munro, Elon Musk gives the number of lines of code to run the neural net of the FSD in Teslas vehicals at circa 300k (go straight to the 16min mark)...
Shirley Meng is a fine mind and well worth the effort to keep up with...
For those wanting infromation as to where we are with 'million mile battey's' search same and add Jeff Dahn...spoiler, it been here a while.
I'm watching the progress of the Apteara an electric vehical that for many circumstances may never need charging infastructure...
& thanks to VCollector for putting the sword into the Solar charging inadequasy line of drivel ...

This ABC piece sings well to the do nothing EV policy's of the current government and a credulious audience... cue'

And Frog (though off topic) ; that water line going past your WhareHouse might come in handy if the Fire Department ever need it to put it out or protect it. Or you may be the type that likes to watch it burn...

 

[SirRumpole]

My own experience disproves what this guy said.

He is assuming that the average person will be charging from 0% to 100% every day, but almost no one burns an entire tank of fuel each day, on average it takes people 7 to 9 days to use a full tank of fuel.

So if it took you 7 to 10 days to use a full battery even the smallest solar systems could produce more than enough to keep you charged.

I just got my latest Electricity bill, and I got a $15 credit and that’s with an electric car, electric hot water, heavy use of Aircon, electric cooking and everything else.

some of these people just don’t think before they speak, and are spreading a lot of misinformation that gets repeated constantly.

I have an 8.2 KWH system so it’s a little larger than average, but it produces easily much much more than is required to charge the car, The Air con actually uses more than my car.

I'm not going to argue the technicalities, but I doubt if your experience is typical of the average Joe who commutes say 100km to work each day, plus running around taking kids to school and sports and shopping at the weekend.

Extrapolating from one case to the entire population is silly.

Not that I'm commenting on the overall accuracy of the article, just saying that herd behaviour can't be predicted from one case.

 

[rederob]

I'm not going to argue the technicalities, but I doubt if your experience is typical of the average Joe who commutes say 100km to work each day, plus running around taking kids to school and sports and shopping at the weekend.

Extrapolating from one case to the entire population is silly.

Not that I'm commenting on the overall accuracy of the article, just saying that herd behaviour can't be predicted from one case.

The average daily passenger vehicle commute is around 35 kilometres, translating to about 1050 kilometres per month, or refuelling twice a month.
Put in a different context for BEVs, they could run at twice the average commute and never need topping up on weekdays or at high demand times. Or, as @Value Collector notes, just drip feed a bit in as required during the week at times when prices are cheapest (because you can choose that parameter in your charging setup), or when you want to draw from your household's "free" solar. (Obviously it's only "free" after payback, but that's seldom more than 6 years on a system that will give you another 20 years on top of that.)

 

[Value Collector]

I'm not going to argue the technicalities, but I doubt if your experience is typical of the average Joe who commutes say 100km to work each day, plus running around taking kids to school and sports and shopping at the weekend.

Extrapolating from one case to the entire population is silly.

Not that I'm commenting on the overall accuracy of the article, just saying that herd behaviour can't be predicted from one case.

If you are driving 100km to work I dont think you are average either, but you would still only be charging a full battery worth every 3 or 4 days, which a small solar system can handle.

Also if you are at work every day, you would be using more electricity to power your car than I do, but you wouldn’t be running your aircon etc at home as much as me, so it balances out,

 

[Value Collector]

Also, currently 0% of the population have the ability to drill and refine their own crude oil at home, so every petrol car owner relies on huge external drilling and refining Infrastructure and fleets of trucks and ships to bring their fuel to their town, so I don’t really see a problem with some people relying on electricity produced by the grid to power their cars, because they are already relying on external agencies to produce their petrol.

All it takes is a steady increase in electricity network investment, and a steady reduction in crude oil network investment.

 

[Smurf1976]

So far as grid electricity is concerned, some observations:

With the exception of Tasmania where pretty much everything concerning energy is different, for every other state electricity has a 15% to 23% market share of secondary energy. For Australia as a whole it's 19%. In Tasmania the figure is 39%.

Secondary energy - that's energy supplied to end users. So it's electricity as distinct from the fuel used to generate it, it's petrol sold as distinct from the crude oil used to make it, etc. It's energy as supplied to end users (all end users except oil refineries, power stations etc).

In every mainland state the use of petroleum greatly exceeds that of electricity on an energy supplied basis, nationally it's about double, and even in Tasmania oil consumption almost matches electricity.

In some states, notably Victoria, WA and the NT, the direct use of natural gas is also greater than the use of electricity. In Queensland, NSW and SA it's less significant than electricity but still major as such. Even in Tasmania it's significant albeit only a few % of the total.

Now where all that goes is that a move away from fossil fuels, in practice primarily refined petroleum and natural gas, at the secondary energy level means more electricity. While there are certainly efficiency gains to be had by switching, since electricity tends to be more efficient at the point of use, ultimately it's still a very substantial increase in electricity consumption. No matter how efficient it is, an EV or an electric hot water system certainly uses more electricity than a petrol car or gas water heater.

Taking Victoria as an example, during mid-winter total electricity consumption averaged over 7 days reaches about 1000 GWh or the equivalent of 6000 MW constantly. That's all electricity used for all purposes industrial, commercial, residential and transport. For reference the absolute peak electricity demand in Victoria on an instantaneous basis is about 10,400 MW.

Meanwhile gas space heaters, not any other use of gas just space heating alone, sits at an average 10,000 MW for weeks on end during winter in Victoria. That's just heating and just gas heating at that. Then there's industrial use of gas, gas used for water heating and cooking.

Chance that we're going to see the average Victorian house going fully electric and off the grid using their own rooftop solar? Essentially zero in practice and it's winter that's the killer. Could be done in summer but to get sufficient space heating and hot water for an average existing home, under winter conditions of poor solar yield, it's not outright impossible but it's impractical for most.

Now add EV charging on top of that. Again it's doable if you live somewhere with lots of sun and you don't need much heating or cooling. For an average house with average occupants though it's no-go, you won't get sufficient solar yield during the cold months to run the house and charge an EV on top of that and even in summer you'll struggle during a heatwave due to cooling load.

Long story short = the grid is here to stay, of that I'm extremely confident. The details of how it's configured and how electricity is generated are undergoing massive change but the basic concept of power stations of whatever form (eg counting a wind or solar farm as a power station since that's effectively what it is) generating electricity as a business and with a network distributing that to consumers isn't going away. Rooftop solar isn't going to put the industry out of business just as home veggie gardens haven't put supermarkets or even fruit and vegetable shops out of business.

Only real exception is places in the middle of nowhere where installing a great big solar array, on a scale that simply isn't practical in the suburbs, is the cheapest means of supplying electricity. Even there though, odds are you'll find some "cheating" in the form of a wood fire for heating etc.

I see no problem with any of that, just pointing it out really. So far as EV's are concerned, the vast majority will be charged on the grid. That the owner happens to also have some solar panels on the grid doesn't change that - both are on the grid not off it.

To that I'll add that charging EV's is one of those things that can be done the right way or it can be done the wrong way and cause mayhem with the grid. The key there isn't so much about working out how to do it, but in making sure that what needs to be done actually is done. Get it right from the start, don't wait until there's enough of them to cause an actual problem then try and fix it.

Simply strongly discouraging charging during the peaks will be adequate in the medium term - it doesn't need to be a barrier to EV adoption, just need some education and perhaps $ persuasion to ensure consumers do the right thing.

In SA today there's been renewable energy going to waste since about midday and there's been a bit in Victoria too. But then some diesel and a lot of gas-fired plant was running this morning - if done well the timing of when EV's are charged has the potential to get better use out of renewable generation facilities already built, we can get more energy out of them without spending a cent on new investment. Or, if done poorly, it has the potential to put the lights out and often the gap between the two is just a few hours.

 

[Smurf1976]

currently 0% of the population have the ability to drill and refine their own crude oil at home

I did try extracting oil from shale once.

Went the site of a former oil shale mine and processing works, found what I thought were shale rocks lying on the surface as I expected there'd be, took them home and tried extracting some oil.

Long story short = got some flammable vapour out of it certainly but not in an economical manner and not in a form that was of any use. Did end up with a huge amount of vapour coming out of the apparatus though and when lit that burned nicely with a yellow-orange flame.

 

[rederob]

Did end up with a huge amount of vapour coming out of the apparatus though and when lit that burned nicely with a yellow-orange flame.

That sentence should never stand alone.

 

[Value Collector]

No matter how efficient it is, an EV or an electric hot water system certainly uses more electricity than a petrol car or gas water heater.

You have to remember that refining petrol and other petroleum products does consume large amounts of electricity and natural gas.

BP says that roughly 10% of the carbon emissions related to the fuel they sell come from purchased electricity, they also use natural gas in their refineries.

So it would be possible to lower emissions and save resources if instead of using Electricity + Natural gas + crude oil just to make petrol and diesel that gets used inefficiently in combustion engines, we instead used that electricity to charge cars directly , snd redirected the the natural gas and crude oil resources to power plants to create electricity to charge cars.

Yes, we would still be releasing carbon, but we would be getting more KM's of driving per tonne of carbon.

At the 1.20 mark of this video BP refer to the large amounts of electricity they use.

 

[Smurf1976]

You have to remember that refining petrol and other petroleum products does consume large amounts of electricity and natural gas.

Agreed it does but still nowhere near as much as using electricity directly.

Eg winter in Victoria there's that 10GW of average gas load for space heating alone, versus 6GW of electrical load for all purposes the majority of which isn't related to gas production. Gas supplies far more energy than it consumes in its production.

Lots of people have tried to put a figure on it. I'm cautious about that since a lot depends on the detail.

Eg where the crude oil is produced geographically, whether that's from lots of little wells or a few big ones (since every well needs energy to drill it), whether the oil is taken away from the field by pipeline or in trucks etc.

At the refining stage there's a difference depending on the product. Eg there's more input energy to produce 98 RON petrol than to produce 91, kerosene or diesel.

Then there's location of consumption. Eg shipping oil from the Middle East to Singapore to refine, then shipping to Adelaide, then road freight to Alice Springs or Broken Hill would be a lot more than taking oil from a local source, refining it locally and taking it in a tanker truck to a service station in the same town or city.

Etc. A huge number of variables there.

 

[sptrawler]

That depends on which news you read....

Well smurf it is now Thursday and still very little news on the Hyundia battery issue.
Lol lucky it isnt a Jeep, or any other ICE vehicle.?