Electric cars?

[sptrawler]

Looks like not only the European Tesla's, but also the Australian RHD Tesla's might be coming out of China, making the U.S great again?

Tesla Model 3 order page update hints at China-made electric car

Tesla updates Model 3 order page hinting China-made Model 3 will come to Australia, including possible Long Range variant.

thedriven.io

Sounds like business as usual.

 

[frugal.rock]

Yeah, and it is the sun that wrecks the interior, not the heat, making cooling the interior pointless. I don't know how much plainer I can put it.

I would say the sun damages yes, I would consider all the plastics in cars and consider that these are made from oil.
Why is the optimum coffee making temp around 75°c ?
So you don't lose the volatile oils that taste good, apparently.
Same goes for car interiors heating up, expanding, cooling down, contracting.
The volatiles slowly make there way out.
A moot point.

 

[sptrawler]

I tried being diplomatic, made a very deliberate point of saying I was trying to be diplomatic, and made a great big post about shade vs cooling and gave everyone some very simple, easy to follow advice on protecting your car's interior, and just look at the posts he made after.

Mate it is a bit like King Canute up to his goolies in the sea, telling the sea to turn back, BEV's are inevitable socially, politically and financially whether they make sense doesn't come into it.
You want to bang your head against a wall, knock yourself out, personally I would suggest you just keep buying NIO.

 

[Smurf1976]

I have to say I have been at a loss to understand your doggedness at demeaning the value/point of the cool car cooling system for Tesla. No one is saying it is a game changer or anything. Just clever and potentially useful in some situations.

The average Australian is, according to statistics, 37 years old.

OK, let's go back 37 years which brings us to 1984.

In 1984 in the context of new cars being sold at that time:

Almost all ran on leaded petrol, the exceptions being the odd random Diesel from Europe of which there were very few sold and anyone who converted to LPG which was mostly taxis. For the rest, it was a case of filling it up with either Standard (89 RON) or Super (96 RON) both of which were leaded.

There were no emissions controls of any note. Every car spewed out carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons, both of which are human health hazards, along with the lead which is a neurotoxin.

Apply the brakes and the driver behind gets to inhale a nice cloud of asbestos dust. Yep, every car on the road emitted asbestos in normal use and its presence was readily detectable in the air (some tests were done once in Hobart and the level found was alarming - no prizes for guessing what it was like in Sydney).

Did not have air-conditioning. It existed but in practice was for rich people. For most cars it was an optional extra which added significantly to the price or was not available at all. It also seriously sapped the engine power.

Did not have power steering. Yes you young ones - turning the wheel used to require quite a bit more physical effort. Modern cars are dead easy to drive in comparison.

Had no safety features of any kind other than seat belts and head rests. No airbags, no crumple zones, no warning systems, nothing.

Definitely did not have ABS brakes indeed at that point drum brakes were still around on many cars especially for the rear.

Might have had an early electronic fuel injection system but fair chance it was still a carb.

In car electronics consisted of an AM/FM radio and, depending on the car, a cassette player.

Window winders - remember those? In every car back then. Crank the handle manually yes.

Central locking? Nope.

Theft? Dead easy given that pretty much no car came standard with any sort of security system. At least you couldn't lose the key fob. Couldn't lose it because there wasn't one.

Cost far more relative to average wages than a comparable car does today.

Used roughly twice as much fuel as a comparable car does today meaning that petrol prices were a common lament of the average person struggling to afford the cost.

Required routine replacement of parts. Exhausts in particular were a big enough problem that even regional cities had multiple businesses which did nothing other than exhausts. It was all that sulfur in the fuel you see, forms sulfuric acid and rusts the absolute crap out of everything.

Was gutless in terms of engine power to the point that trying to drive at the speed limit up a hill was a valid performance test. A current model V6 Toyota Camry, not exactly what most would see as a high performance car, is in fact more powerful than actual purpose built race cars were a generation ago.

And so on.

Cars have improved dramatically in half a human lifetime and looking back, what was state of the art back then was an uncomfortable, unreliable, toxic and expensive death trap compared to even the most basic modern vehicle.

Now the thing is, I can actually recall people making arguments against most of those improvements when they were first introduced.

Good drivers don't need safety systems they said. Never mind that crashes do occur in practice.

There's no need for air-conditioning anywhere other than a long way north of Brisbane they said.

Real men don't need power steering they said, that's only for ladies' cars and even they could do without it.

Outright denial over the health effects of CO, HC and Pb emissions even though the air in Australian cities was visibly filthy compared to today and overwhelming evidence existed that the entire planet was being contaminated as a consequence of adding tetraethyllead to petrol.

And now we're at he point of further progress, this time with a switch from petrol to electricity as the power source. As with all the other progress, someone will look back at a future time and shake their head in amazement at the suggestion anyone would have opposed it.

 

[sptrawler]

Another interesting thing that is happening, there will be a huge reclassification of the auto electrician trade IMO.
Motor mechanics will have to adapt and retrain as auto electricians, or face being at centerlink in 20years.
@Smurf1976 , the other thing that may well happen, as happened with the instrument trade, the electrical trade may well swallow it up.
The voltages the cars work on, could well make it in the realm of an unrestricted electrical license IMO.

 

[over9k]

Mate it is a bit like King Canute up to his goolies in the sea, telling the sea to turn back, BEV's are inevitable socially, politically and financially whether they make sense doesn't come into it.
You want to bang your head against a wall, knock yourself out, personally I would suggest you just keep buying NIO.

I've never said otherwise though. I even said that there's tons of reasons to buy EV's, just not this one.

Another interesting thing that is happening, there will be a huge reclassification of the auto electrician trade IMO.
Motor mechanics will have to adapt and retrain as auto electricians, or face being at centerlink in 20years.
@Smurf1976 , the other thing that may well happen, as happened with the instrument trade, the electrical trade may well swallow it up.
The voltages the cars work on, could well make it in the realm of an unrestricted electrical license IMO.

I was actually thinking this just today. Is mechanic going to be a dead profession in 20 years?

 

[qldfrog]

Well, he owns an ev so whatever works for him I guess.

To me, the more parts move, the more wear and tear there is.

And the more breaking setting adjusting.
That is actually supposed to be a selling point of ev, simpler..

 

[qldfrog]

The average Australian is, according to statistics, 37 years old.

OK, let's go back 37 years which brings us to 1984.

In 1984 in the context of new cars being sold at that time:

Almost all ran on leaded petrol, the exceptions being the odd random Diesel from Europe of which there were very few sold and anyone who converted to LPG which was mostly taxis. For the rest, it was a case of filling it up with either Standard (89 RON) or Super (96 RON) both of which were leaded.

There were no emissions controls of any note. Every car spewed out carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons, both of which are human health hazards, along with the lead which is a neurotoxin.

Apply the brakes and the driver behind gets to inhale a nice cloud of asbestos dust. Yep, every car on the road emitted asbestos in normal use and its presence was readily detectable in the air (some tests were done once in Hobart and the level found was alarming - no prizes for guessing what it was like in Sydney).

Did not have air-conditioning. It existed but in practice was for rich people. For most cars it was an optional extra which added significantly to the price or was not available at all. It also seriously sapped the engine power.

Did not have power steering. Yes you young ones - turning the wheel used to require quite a bit more physical effort. Modern cars are dead easy to drive in comparison.

Had no safety features of any kind other than seat belts and head rests. No airbags, no crumple zones, no warning systems, nothing.

Definitely did not have ABS brakes indeed at that point drum brakes were still around on many cars especially for the rear.

Might have had an early electronic fuel injection system but fair chance it was still a carb.

In car electronics consisted of an AM/FM radio and, depending on the car, a cassette player.

Window winders - remember those? In every car back then. Crank the handle manually yes.

Central locking? Nope.

Theft? Dead easy given that pretty much no car came standard with any sort of security system. At least you couldn't lose the key fob. Couldn't lose it because there wasn't one.

Cost far more relative to average wages than a comparable car does today.

Used roughly twice as much fuel as a comparable car does today meaning that petrol prices were a common lament of the average person struggling to afford the cost.

Required routine replacement of parts. Exhausts in particular were a big enough problem that even regional cities had multiple businesses which did nothing other than exhausts. It was all that sulfur in the fuel you see, forms sulfuric acid and rusts the absolute crap out of everything.

Was gutless in terms of engine power to the point that trying to drive at the speed limit up a hill was a valid performance test. A current model V6 Toyota Camry, not exactly what most would see as a high performance car, is in fact more powerful than actual purpose built race cars were a generation ago.

And so on.

Cars have improved dramatically in half a human lifetime and looking back, what was state of the art back then was an uncomfortable, unreliable, toxic and expensive death trap compared to even the most basic modern vehicle.

Now the thing is, I can actually recall people making arguments against most of those improvements when they were first introduced.

Good drivers don't need safety systems they said. Never mind that crashes do occur in practice.

There's no need for air-conditioning anywhere other than a long way north of Brisbane they said.

Real men don't need power steering they said, that's only for ladies' cars and even they could do without it.

Outright denial over the health effects of CO, HC and Pb emissions even though the air in Australian cities was visibly filthy compared to today and overwhelming evidence existed that the entire planet was being contaminated as a consequence of adding tetraethyllead to petrol.

And now we're at he point of further progress, this time with a switch from petrol to electricity as the power source. As with all the other progress, someone will look back at a future time and shake their head in amazement at the suggestion anyone would have opposed it.

No one should oppose it, just do not force and stop BS like it is better for the environment etc.
There are enough real advantages without the need for government intervention.
If i had money to waste, yep, i could by a new car but i do not want need to.
And when I genuinely need to purchase new vehicles: a tractor and a farm buggy in the last 2 months, there was no proper EV offer.
The buggy especially pissed me off as this is a perfect application of EV.
As of today, EV is not a proper option in australia.and it is not the few Tesla sold here and there at 3 times the cost of other cars which can change that.

 

[basilio]

The average Australian is, according to statistics, 37 years old.

OK, let's go back 37 years which brings us to 1984.

In 1984 in the context of new cars being sold at that time:

Almost all ran on leaded petrol, the exceptions being the odd random Diesel from Europe of which there were very few sold and anyone who converted to LPG which was mostly taxis. For the rest, it was a case of filling it up with either Standard (89 RON) or Super (96 RON) both of which were leaded.

There were no emissions controls of any note. Every car spewed out carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons, both of which are human health hazards, along with the lead which is a neurotoxin.

Apply the brakes and the driver behind gets to inhale a nice cloud of asbestos dust. Yep, every car on the road emitted asbestos in normal use and its presence was readily detectable in the air (some tests were done once in Hobart and the level found was alarming - no prizes for guessing what it was like in Sydney).

Did not have air-conditioning. It existed but in practice was for rich people. For most cars it was an optional extra which added significantly to the price or was not available at all. It also seriously sapped the engine power.

Did not have power steering. Yes you young ones - turning the wheel used to require quite a bit more physical effort. Modern cars are dead easy to drive in comparison.

Had no safety features of any kind other than seat belts and head rests. No airbags, no crumple zones, no warning systems, nothing.

Definitely did not have ABS brakes indeed at that point drum brakes were still around on many cars especially for the rear.

Might have had an early electronic fuel injection system but fair chance it was still a carb.

In car electronics consisted of an AM/FM radio and, depending on the car, a cassette player.

Window winders - remember those? In every car back then. Crank the handle manually yes.

Central locking? Nope.

Theft? Dead easy given that pretty much no car came standard with any sort of security system. At least you couldn't lose the key fob. Couldn't lose it because there wasn't one.

Cost far more relative to average wages than a comparable car does today.

Used roughly twice as much fuel as a comparable car does today meaning that petrol prices were a common lament of the average person struggling to afford the cost.

Required routine replacement of parts. Exhausts in particular were a big enough problem that even regional cities had multiple businesses which did nothing other than exhausts. It was all that sulfur in the fuel you see, forms sulfuric acid and rusts the absolute crap out of everything.

Was gutless in terms of engine power to the point that trying to drive at the speed limit up a hill was a valid performance test. A current model V6 Toyota Camry, not exactly what most would see as a high performance car, is in fact more powerful than actual purpose built race cars were a generation ago.

And so on.

Cars have improved dramatically in half a human lifetime and looking back, what was state of the art back then was an uncomfortable, unreliable, toxic and expensive death trap compared to even the most basic modern vehicle.

Now the thing is, I can actually recall people making arguments against most of those improvements when they were first introduced.

Good drivers don't need safety systems they said. Never mind that crashes do occur in practice.

There's no need for air-conditioning anywhere other than a long way north of Brisbane they said.

Real men don't need power steering they said, that's only for ladies' cars and even they could do without it.

Outright denial over the health effects of CO, HC and Pb emissions even though the air in Australian cities was visibly filthy compared to today and overwhelming evidence existed that the entire planet was being contaminated as a consequence of adding tetraethyllead to petrol.

And now we're at he point of further progress, this time with a switch from petrol to electricity as the power source. As with all the other progress, someone will look back at a future time and shake their head in amazement at the suggestion anyone would have opposed it.

Great piece of perspective Smurf . Certainly highlights just how much cars have improved in so many ways in our living memory.

 

[Smurf1976]

No one should oppose it, just do not force

I'm certainly not proposing that EV's be forced on consumers under present circumstances. For the record even the power industry doesn't have a 100% EV passenger vehicle fleet, not even close at present though most have at least one.

That said, ultimately there's a wider community consideration. I'd argue that it was entirely reasonable to prohibit the sale of new vehicles using petrol containing tetraethyllead and to require the fitting of catalytic converters for example given that the technology was available at modest cost and there was clear evidence of a community wide problem.

Likewise I'd argue that it's reasonable to require that all new cars meet a minimum safety standard in order to be used on public roads since there's an impact far beyond the original purchaser.

In both cases, leaded petrol and safety, there's never been any requirement to stop using an existing car so long as it's properly maintained and nor should there be. The fleet turns over in due course anyway so just let it occur naturally.

At some point going forward I fully expect that ICE cars will be much like CRT TV's or VHS tapes. Not banned but simply not wanted anymore by anyone apart from a few with a genuine interest in restoring and preserving old technology as a hobby.

 

[Value Collector]

I was actually thinking this just today. Is mechanic going to be a dead profession in 20 years?

There are still some people who re-shoe horses,
Just not as many as there used to be.

changing tyres and working on steering racks, wheel bearings will still exist.

 

[sptrawler]

changing tyres and working on steering racks, wheel bearings will still exist.

They really aren't trades though.

The maintenance schedule on a BEV, will be a lot less than that required for ICE vehicles, not only will the number of workers required diminish the amount of spin off work will reduce hugely e.g exhaust shops, radiator repair shops, brake component shops.
Electric motors are usually overhauled on a time based maintenance plan, rather than a distance covered basis. The main issue is the cleaning and replacing of bearing grease that usually runs into several years as opposed to several months with ICE oil changes.
Possibly the motors could be fitted with vibration monitoring, which would not be difficult and could result in the motor never requiring attention.

 

[over9k]

No doubt about that at all - ICE engines will be a purely hobby thing like old cars are now.

 

[qldfrog]

I'm certainly not proposing that EV's be forced on consumers under present circumstances. For the record even the power industry doesn't have a 100% EV passenger vehicle fleet, not even close at present though most have at least one.

That said, ultimately there's a wider community consideration. I'd argue that it was entirely reasonable to prohibit the sale of new vehicles using petrol containing tetraethyllead and to require the fitting of catalytic converters for example given that the technology was available at modest cost and there was clear evidence of a community wide problem.

Likewise I'd argue that it's reasonable to require that all new cars meet a minimum safety standard in order to be used on public roads since there's an impact far beyond the original purchaser.

In both cases, leaded petrol and safety, there's never been any requirement to stop using an existing car so long as it's properly maintained and nor should there be. The fleet turns over in due course anyway so just let it occur naturally.

At some point going forward I fully expect that ICE cars will be much like CRT TV's or VHS tapes. Not banned but simply not wanted anymore by anyone apart from a few with a genuine interest in restoring and preserving old technology as a hobby.

Europe and soon US declarations of banning ICE by 2035 (or you name the year ) are sadly a force move, all in line with removing freedom of the individuals while the 0.1% can afford the individual EV, the others will share taxis and self driving ubers and be told it is a societal advance...while dying from virus/vaccine exposure, crime and being treated like a consumption unit in an industrial chookhouse with restricted travel zones etc
make no mistake, it is a plan, call it the Reset as officially branded or 1984/brazil for the fews who are litterate.
Progress is good, but not always the use of it.EV are great, not the purpose behind the push

 

[SirRumpole]

Europe and soon US declarations of banning ICE by 2035 (or you name the year ) are sadly a force move, all in line with removing freedom of the individuals while the 0.1% can afford the individual EV, the others will share taxis and self driving ubers and be told it is a societal advance...while dying from virus/vaccine exposure, crime and being treated like a consumption unit in an industrial chookhouse with restricted travel zones etc
make no mistake, it is a plan, call it the Reset as officially branded or 1984/brazil for the fews who are litterate.
Progress is good, but not always the use of it.EV are great, not the purpose behind the push

I'd be interested to know if any of the governments introducing enforcement plans for EV's on private citizens have published plans to electrify their own government car fleets ?

Why is Boris Johnson still riding around in a petrol powered Jaguar instead of a Tesla ?

It's up to leaders to lead not tell the public what to do.

 

[basilio]

No doubt about that at all - ICE engines will be a purely hobby thing like old cars are now.

And even in that concept I reckon there is a strong possibility that many older/classic cars will end up beng converted to electricty. People can enjoy the classic feel and look but have a strong, smooth silent reliable drive train.

I know there are specialists workshops which are already doing this. VW beetles/Combis in particular are relatively simple changeovers and offer an outstanding improvement in performance and comfort.

Volkswagen expands electric classic offering - carsales.com.au

Pure-electric conversion kits set to be offered for original Beetle, classic Golf, The Thing and the Karmann Ghia coupe and convertible, suggest new trademarks

www.carsales.com.au

Electric Car Conversion Australia: A DIY Guide to EV Conversions

Converting a conventionally powered car to run on electricity alone is a bit of a hot-button topic right now. Ever since Harry and Meghan headed off on their honeymoon in an electrified Jaguar E-Type, the idea of converting older cars to EVs (electric vehicles) has gained popularity.

www.carsguide.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

And even in that concept I reckon there is a strong possibility that many older/classic cars will end up beng converted to electricty. People can enjoy the classic feel and look but have a strong, smooth silent reliable drive train.

I know there are specialists workshops which are already doing this. VW beetles/Combis in particular are relatively simple changeovers and offer an outstanding improvement in performance and comfort.

Volkswagen expands electric classic offering - carsales.com.au

Pure-electric conversion kits set to be offered for original Beetle, classic Golf, The Thing and the Karmann Ghia coupe and convertible, suggest new trademarks

www.carsales.com.au

Electric Car Conversion Australia: A DIY Guide to EV Conversions

Converting a conventionally powered car to run on electricity alone is a bit of a hot-button topic right now. Ever since Harry and Meghan headed off on their honeymoon in an electrified Jaguar E-Type, the idea of converting older cars to EVs (electric vehicles) has gained popularity.

www.carsguide.com.au

A classic car converted to an EV is no longer classic.

They only have curiosity value, price appreciation would cease.

 

[basilio]

A classic car converted to an EV is no longer classic.

They only have curiosity value, price appreciation would cease.

Maybe. I spend a little time following the ups and down of "investing" in classic cars. I think that restorations of older cars have become more relaxed in terms of total authenticity versus updating of known problems and dodgy parts. People have to want to drive these cars as well.

I'm aware of at least a couple of companies that offer to turn old Jags into EV s to make them more powerful and reliable. The motor is kept to enable a conversion back to its original condition if the owner wants to go that way.

I couldn't see a GTHO being turned electric and holding its value. But others ? Be interesting to see how the market develops.

 

[SirRumpole]

Maybe. I spend a little time following the ups and down of "investing" in classic cars. I think that restorations of older cars have become more relaxed in terms of total authenticity versus updating of known problems and dodgy parts. People have to want to drive these cars as well.

I'm aware of at least a couple of companies that offer to turn old Jags into EV s to make them more powerful and reliable. The motor is kept to enable a conversion back to its original condition if the owner wants to go that way.

I couldn't see a GTHO being turned electric and holding its value. But others ? Be interesting to see how the market develops.

I suppose the attraction is driving your beetle up beside a Porsche and blowing it into the dust.

That might be worth the conversion cost.

 

[Smurf1976]

So far as classic cars are concerned, it won't matter either way.

There's just not enough of them, being driven enough km, to matter.

Just as it doesn't matter that there's the odd random tourist steam train still running (using coal or heavy fuel oil) and stuff like that. Just not enough to be a problem worth worrying about.

Same with two stroke lawnmowers and so on, anyone suggesting something needs to be done to stop the use of those already built could fairly be accused of virtue signaling as there's just not going to be enough of them left by the time anyone could ban them to be worth doing so. It's also a huge waste of materials to be throwing away otherwise still usable equipment so it doesn't even stack up environmentally.

If someone in the year 2050 has a running 1975 Kingswood and a Victa 2 stroke mower then no problem since neither will be even slightly common at that point. Both will be seen as a novelty far more than a problem.