Education

[basilio]

I have been talking with teacher in the past 6 months about his experiences in the Victorian Education department.

Pretty scary, sobering stuff. Essentially it's becoming harder and harder to hold teachers in the system. Increasing demands on teachers particularly with paperwork result in more and more pressure with teachers either leaving or moving to private schools. The resulting shortage of teachers then puts more pressure on the remaining staff.

The financial model used by the Department encourages Principals to focus on first to -third year teachers to staff their schools. Experienced teachers cost more money. That breaks the budget. But then these new teachers just don't have the skills or experience to be effective. And the lack of experienced teachers to support them results in more departures. In the school my friend was at , some teachers were so overwhelmed they just left after a week or even a day. It was/is a challenging school.

My friend had been effectively forced out of his previous school mid 2022 by a vindictive very, very difficult Principal. By the end of 2022 28 staff had left this school. It is a very well regarded Eastern Suburbs Secondary school.

At the end of 2022 my friend took up a permanent advertised position in another school. His skill set as an experienced highly effective teacher in high demand curriculum makes him exceptionally desirable. These positions are relatively rare. Principals generally advertise one year contracts.

As an additional incentive to take up this position the Department offered a $39k bonus for the successful candidate. The offer made in December and accepted by my friend was $21k payment in the first pay cheque and then three payments of $9k in the next 3 years .

However the Department has now decided this deal was too generous and just changed the formula. The new deal is $10k in the first pay cheque, then another $10k at the end of the second year, a further $10k at the end of year 3 and a final $10k at the end of year 4

I can understand why the Education Department might decide its initial offers were a bit generous and change the way the incentives are paid to new applicants. I am gob smacked however that they decided to simply rip up agreements that were offered and taken in the last 7 weeks. I'm very glad my teaching days are over.

 

[sptrawler]

. I am gob smacked however that they decided to simply rip up agreements that were offered and taken in the last 7 weeks. I'm very glad my teaching days are over.

Apparently that is the way of the world these days, my son was given a job, the work site is 50km from where he lives and he was told it is ok to drive to work.
Then he was told the company had decided due to fatigue management, he would have to stay onsite while he working his shifts and he would have to supply his own food and pay for the accommodation.
So he is very likely to refuse the job and stay where he is.

 

[basilio]

Apparently that is the way of the world these days, my son was given a job, the work site is 50km from where he lives and he was told it is ok to drive to work.
Then he was told the company had decided due to fatigue management, he would have to stay onsite while he working his shifts and he would have to supply his own food and pay for the accommodation.
So he is very likely to refuse the job and stay where he is.

Wow!! 50klm. Is that country miles ie about 30-35 minutes drive ? I'm struggling to understand this exercise in control of employees and as you point out changing such an important element of the work/life situation.

 

[sptrawler]

Yes it is country driving, so as you say 30-35 minutes driving 110km speed limit.

 

[mullokintyre]

Wow!! 50klm. Is that country miles ie about 30-35 minutes drive ? I'm struggling to understand this exercise in control of employees and as you point out changing such an important element of the work/life situation.

Probably a duty of care issue.
I don't know what sort of legislation there is in WA, but here in Victoria, the draconian Industrial manslaughter cherges would be invoked if someone were to be killed on the way to work, seeing as now its considered part of the working environment.
The company was probably advised by its lawyers that they might be sued under the duty of care legislation.
There insurance companies who look after workers comp might also demand higher rates for employees travelling to and from work at distances greater than x kms'.
I might add that these types of draconian laws have been enacted after agitation by unions such as the CFMEU.
Mick

 

[SirRumpole]

Probably a duty of care issue.
I don't know what sort of legislation there is in WA, but here in Victoria, the draconian Industrial manslaughter cherges would be invoked if someone were to be killed on the way to work, seeing as now its considered part of the working environment.
The company was probably advised by its lawyers that they might be sued under the duty of care legislation.
There insurance companies who look after workers comp might also demand higher rates for employees travelling to and from work at distances greater than x kms'.
I might add that these types of draconian laws have been enacted after agitation by unions such as the CFMEU.
Mick

???

Don't millions of people drive to work every day ?

 

[mullokintyre]

???

Don't millions of people drive to work every day ?

Its the distance travelled on country roads that is the problem.
Statistically, country drivers have more fatalities than those in the cities- something to do with speed, poor roads, poor training, lots of things
Combined with fatigue after a hard 12 hour day, and its seen as dangerous. When I was in the West last year, we stayed inNorseman and got talking to a few miner folk in the pub.
One of them told us that union agitation for an extra payment to workers to allow them to stay overnight after a 12 hour shift was welcomed by the employers, but it was never policed. Most of them pocketed the money and still drove home after the shift.
It was mainly about covering their collective arses, they could say that they provided the means for employees to stay after a shift, if the employees chose to do otherwise, its not their problem.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Probably a duty of care issue.
I don't know what sort of legislation there is in WA, but here in Victoria, the draconian Industrial manslaughter cherges would be invoked if someone were to be killed on the way to work, seeing as now its considered part of the working environment.
The company was probably advised by its lawyers that they might be sued under the duty of care legislation.
There insurance companies who look after workers comp might also demand higher rates for employees travelling to and from work at distances greater than x kms'.
I might add that these types of draconian laws have been enacted after agitation by unions such as the CFMEU.
Mick

If that was the case, shouldn't the company provide the accommodation? that is usually what happens with drive in drive out, or fly in fly out.
Anyway it is what it is and the son will decide whether he will take it or not, I was just pointing out to @basilio that the world has changed a lot in the last 30 years, for both private and public sector workers.

 

[moXJO]

It was mainly about covering their collective arses, they could say that they provided the means for employees to stay after a shift, if the employees chose to do otherwise, its not their problem.
Mick

This is correct.

There was a famous incident where an employee was hurt while she was in a hotel on a business trip. She was having sex and the shelving above her fell off and hit her in the head or something.
Anyway, the court case found in her favour.
So business has to be extra careful.

 

[sptrawler]

This is correct.

There was a famous incident where an employee was hurt while she was in a hotel on a business trip. She was having sex and the shelving above her fell off and hit her in the head or something.
Anyway, the court case found in her favour.
So business has to be extra careful.

She would have still been able to claim, if she was bonking in the SPQ. ?

 

[SirRumpole]

This is correct.

There was a famous incident where an employee was hurt while she was in a hotel on a business trip. She was having sex and the shelving above her fell off and hit her in the head or something.
Anyway, the court case found in her favour.
So business has to be extra careful.

I think she was a public servant, but the principle is the same

 

[sptrawler]

I wonder if the reason some students feel like they are failing at year 12, is because they maybe should be doing trades, rather than doing year 12?
Maybe we can have a system where every child goes to University, then we can make some money. ?
Meanwhile we keep importing more and more skilled workers, the clever country, presenting chook fodder like this and calling it news. IMO it should be in the free advertising, for higher education section.?

Principals urge education authorities to scrap ATAR

A group of principals is pushing for the university ranking system to be dumped and replaced with a model that better evaluates students’ wider skills.

www.theage.com.au

Victorian education authorities should scrap the ATAR for a less blunt measure of year 12 achievement, say principals, who argue it leaves too many students feeling like failures.

The group of more than a dozen leaders from a diverse group of schools say the ATAR is increasingly “not fit for purpose”. They want it replaced with a system that better evaluates students’ academic and personal achievements.
Record numbers of students are opting out of getting an ATAR and being ranked against their peers, while universities have also begun bypassing the system by making early and non-ATAR offers.
The ATAR is a competitive ranking of VCE study scores between 99.95 and zero that is used for university entry.

The principals, who represent a coalition of public and private schools, have outlined their concerns in a letter to the Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority (VCAA) and the Victorian Tertiary Admissions Centre (VTAC).
“These arrangements no longer seem fit for purpose for many, perhaps most learners,” the letter states.

Instead, year 12 students should be given a “learner profile” that also includes information about each of their interests, values and skills that are not assessed by the ATAR, such as communication, caring and creativity, they argue.
The number of students completing an unscored VCE is growing annually, indicating more students are unwilling to put themselves through the stress of competing for a university place, the letter states.

 

[SirRumpole]

I wonder if the reason some students feel like they are failing at year 12, is because they maybe should be doing trades, rather than doing year 12?
Maybe we can have a system where every child goes to University, then we can make some money. ?
Meanwhile we keep importing more and more skilled workers, the clever country, presenting chook fodder like this and calling it news. IMO it should be in the free advertising, for higher education section.?

Principals urge education authorities to scrap ATAR

A group of principals is pushing for the university ranking system to be dumped and replaced with a model that better evaluates students’ wider skills.

www.theage.com.au

Victorian education authorities should scrap the ATAR for a less blunt measure of year 12 achievement, say principals, who argue it leaves too many students feeling like failures.

The group of more than a dozen leaders from a diverse group of schools say the ATAR is increasingly “not fit for purpose”. They want it replaced with a system that better evaluates students’ academic and personal achievements.
Record numbers of students are opting out of getting an ATAR and being ranked against their peers, while universities have also begun bypassing the system by making early and non-ATAR offers.
The ATAR is a competitive ranking of VCE study scores between 99.95 and zero that is used for university entry.

The principals, who represent a coalition of public and private schools, have outlined their concerns in a letter to the Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority (VCAA) and the Victorian Tertiary Admissions Centre (VTAC).
“These arrangements no longer seem fit for purpose for many, perhaps most learners,” the letter states.

Instead, year 12 students should be given a “learner profile” that also includes information about each of their interests, values and skills that are not assessed by the ATAR, such as communication, caring and creativity, they argue.
The number of students completing an unscored VCE is growing annually, indicating more students are unwilling to put themselves through the stress of competing for a university place, the letter states.

Geez, the Lefties have really taken over haven't they ?

Every child gets a prize.

No wonder we are cr@p at doing technical stuff that actually requires some knowledge of Maths or Engineering or science, but as long as they can do touch feely stuff like "caring and creativity" we will all have caring buildings with Muslim prayer rooms and multi racial creches but they wouldn't pass a decent building standard.

Bluddy ell !

 

[mullokintyre]

It would seem that parents are voting with their feet (or more likely their purse/wallet).
From ABC News

The latest national Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) schools data shows this appetite is replicated across the outer suburbs of Australia's biggest cities.

Parents are increasingly opting for faith-based independent schools; in 2022, enrolments at independent schools grew by 3.3 per cent and at Catholic schools by 1 per cent.
Conversely, enrolments in the public sector fell for the second year in a row and much faster than in 2021 despite interest rate rises and increasing cost-of-living pressure.

Enrolments fell by 0.6 per cent in 2022, a steeper decline than in 2021 when they fell by 0.2 per cent, the ABS statistics released today show.

There are now more than 1.4 million Australian students or 35.6 per cent at private schools and about 2.6 million pupils at government schools.

Parents pleased with decision to go private​

Mother Emily Johnson chose to send her two kids to Mount Annan Christian College despite the financial sacrifice.

"We did consider that we would have to spend more money sending them to an independent school compared to a public school," Ms Johnson said.

"But we decided that it was worth it and we're pleased in our decision also."

It probably means that governments are going to have difficulty in dumping funding from th private schools system.
You don't want to piss off your constituents too much.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

It would seem that parents are voting with their feet (or more likely their purse/wallet).
From ABC News


It probably means that governments are going to have difficulty in dumping funding from th private schools system.
You don't want to piss off your constituents too much.
Mick

From talking to my kids and their friends, it is the only way you know what you are getting, the general consensus regarding public schools is, the teachers decide what the curriculum is and what your kids need to be taught.

 

[mullokintyre]

I t

From talking to my kids and their friends, it is the only way you know what you are getting, the general consensus regarding public schools is, the teachers decide what the curriculum is.

I think the major reason is a sense that the private schools have a greater level of discipline.
Whether that is true or not, is a moot point, but thats seems to be what the parents think.
The private schools also have more leeway in "omitting" problem kids, whereas the public schools have to take the little buggers if they live in the school catchment area.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

I t

I think the major reason is a sense that the private schools have a greater level of discipline.
Whether that is true or not, is a moot point, but thats seems to be what the parents think.
The private schools also have more leeway in "omitting" problem kids, whereas the public schools have to take the little buggers if they live in the school catchment area.
Mick

Yes, I just thought I would leave that can of worms alone, free range kids are the go at the moment. ?
From birth until they hit the workforce, the adults have given them complete control, then when they hit the real World everyone wonders why they have trouble coping. ?

 

[mullokintyre]

Australia ranked 39th out of 41 countries in education standards according to UNICEF.
From Education matters

Australia has been ranked 39 out of 41 high and middle-income countries in achieving quality education, according to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF).
Issued by the UNICEF Office of Research – Innocenti, Building the Future: Children and the Sustainable Development Goals in Rich Countries, this is the first report to assess the status of children in 41 high-income countries of the European Union (EU) and the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). It ranks countries based on their performance and details the challenges and opportunities that advanced economies face in achieving global commitments to children. The research is used to identify Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) seen as most important for child well-being.

Tony Stuart, CEO of UNICEF Australia said of the findings: “Most Australians would expect Australia to place in the top end of a ranking amongst EU/OECD countries. When it comes to child well-being indicators however, Australia places in the middle of the league table, 21st out of 41 EU/OECD countries. This seemingly average ranking hides some stark and troubling findings for children in Australia.

“UNICEF Australia is particularly concerned about the disadvantage experienced by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, children with disabilities, and children from single parent households – children who are at risk of being left behind.

“Australia’s ranking of 39th out of 41 EU/OECD countries in terms of quality education raises serious red flags for children’s learning and development, which can severely impact their chances in life. A deeper dive into the data reveals that 71.7 per cent of 15-year-olds in Australia are achieving baseline competency in reading, mathematics and science (2015) and 80 per cent of children are participating in organised learning one year before the start of compulsory schooling (2013/14). We know that education is a great equaliser in society so it follows that poor quality education produces sharp inequality,” Mr Stuart added.

Yeah, that seems about right.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

They are still rolling out the same nonsense they did 30 years ago when they said everyone would need a degree, now we are importing more tradespeople than you can poke a stick at, so what is the answer? More unis and tell kids they all need to go to uni, meanwhile head off to India to drum up business. Sad for our kids IMO.

Jason Clare: Unis review to identify key areas of future growth​

While we’re speaking about Jason Clare, the education minister has been speaking on Sky News about the review into Australian universities’ competitiveness.

If we went in a time machine back to when you and I were born in the western suburbs of Sydney, there was only a handful of unis, only about 7 per cent of Aussies had a uni degree. If you fast forward to today we’ve got about 40 unis, more than a million Australians are at uni at the moment...
We’re told than nine out of 10 jobs in the coming decade are going to require you to finish school and then go to TAFE or go to uni. So universities and TAFEs are going to be more important in the years to come than they have been in the past decades...
So a big part of this review is, how many people do we need to have a university degree, and what are the priority areas where they need to focus?”

Clare is about to head to India with multiple Australian uni vice-chancellors to explore opening whole campuses in the country, which has more than half a billion people under the age of 23. That country’s government plans for half of all young Indians to gain vocational or higher education degrees by 2035, Clare said.

 

[Smurf1976]

the work site is 50km from where he lives and he was told it is ok to drive to work.
Then he was told the company had decided due to fatigue management, he would have to stay onsite

50km!

That's simply ridiculous.

Not sure about Perth but certainly in the other 4 large capitals you can drive 50km, one way, without leaving the metropolitan area pretty easily. Even in Hobart you could do 40km legitimately within the "greater" urban area.

Going a step further, if the employer is so worried about the wellbeing of staff then what about "work life balance", family and so on?

I'm no union thug but this sort of thing is a reminder that yep, there's a place for them to put a stop to this sort of nonsense. 50km is simply ridiculous - people commute further than that to CBD office jobs.