Education

[macca]

Here is an article on the subject of University degrees, from a group which are usually left leaning and agrees with my assessment.

Universities turn degrees into toilet paper

Earlier this year, Productivity Commission data revealed that 47.8% of Australians aged under 25 were enrolled in a bachelor degree at university. In turn, it confirmed that the Rudd Government’s goal to increase university participation rates to 40% have been exceeded. According to data...

www.macrobusiness.com.au

Earlier this year, Productivity Commission data revealed that 47.8% of Australians aged under 25 were enrolled in a bachelor degree at university. In turn, it confirmed that the Rudd Government’s goal to increase university participation rates to 40% have been exceeded.


According to data published on the federal government’s Course Seeker website, this explosion in enrolments has been achieved by scraping the bottom of the barrel, with 221 different bachelor degrees offering university places to students with Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR) scores below 50 – the bottom 10% of high school leavers:

I think that it is a poor commentary on the educators of Australia, to encourage people who basically failed the High School exam to attend Uni simply stupid.

We end up with Unis full of people who should not be there, clogging up resources and tutors and hampering those who should be there.

Those who inevitably fail, end up with a Uni debt that when they eventually find there niche, perhaps driving a backhoe, they have to repay a debt that they should have been strongly advised against incurring.

Ego tripping for educators does not help Australia when we need trades and truck drivers

 

[sptrawler]

I think that it is a poor commentary on the educators of Australia, to encourage people who basically failed the High School exam to attend Uni simply stupid.

We end up with Unis full of people who should not be there, clogging up resources and tutors and hampering those who should be there.

Those who inevitably fail, end up with a Uni debt that when they eventually find there niche, perhaps driving a backhoe, they have to repay a debt that they should have been strongly advised against incurring.

Ego tripping for educators does not help Australia when we need trades and truck drivers

Yes it is the down side of not having a continuous testing programme in schools, where a young person can judge for themselves how they are going academically and make a honest decision as to whether they should go on.
As with most things that politicians get involved in, it ends up a mess and our education system is no different, the old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't work anymore.
The politicians have to feel they are making a difference, whether they have the ability to improve things is questionable, most things they change they stuff up.
40% of students will go to uni whether they are smart enough or not and they will devalue the degrees of the 10% who should be there, yep Australia the smart country.
Give out toilet paper degrees and import technical skills, magic.
The one thing you will never hear from politicians, "look I think we have stuffed this up, let's rewind back to the way it was". ?

 

[MovingAverage]

Yes it is the down side of not having a continuous testing programme in schools, where a young person can judge for themselves how they are going academically and make a honest decision as to whether they should go on.
As with most things that politicians get involved in, it ends up a mess and our education system is no different, the old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't work anymore.
The politicians have to feel they are making a difference, whether they have the ability to improve things is questionable, most things they change they stuff up.
40% of students will go to uni whether they are smart enough or not and they will devalue the degrees of the 10% who should be there, yep Australia the smart country.
Give out toilet paper degrees and import technical skills, magic.
The one thing you will never hear from politicians, "look I think we have stuffed this up, let's rewind back to the way it was". ?

Problem is Uni’s are not about education these days—they are about making money. This is why they are so focused on giving out toilet paper degrees to anyone and everyone because that is where the money is at.

 

[sptrawler]

@SirRumpole at last a glimmer of hope.

Forget the fads: Maths teachers urged to focus on traditional teaching methods

A new report says teachers are often misinformed about how students learn and what works in the classroom.

www.smh.com.au

Maths teachers should ditch “faddish” practices and focus on proven methods such as using clear and detailed instruction and teaching algorithms.

A new report from the Centre for Independent Studies says that teachers are often misinformed about how students learn and what works in the classroom.

The report, Myths are Undermining Maths Teaching, calls for a focus on traditional education methods such as explicit teaching, involving the explanation and demonstration of new skills, instead of “inquiry-based learning”.
Opposing education academics say teachers should be able to use their professional judgment to decide the best teaching methods on a case-by-case basis.

Australian student achievement in the OECD-run Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) has declined more steeply and consistently than any other country except Finland. This downward trend has been greatest in mathematics. Compared with the top-performer, Singapore, the Australian students who sat the most recent PISA test in 2018 were three years behind in maths.

“Helping teachers to substitute faddish and evidence-free practices with proven, effective teaching will lift outcomes of students,” Powell said.

The report argues in favour of explicitly teaching students mathematics skills first and later encouraging independent practice and application of skills.

“While some students may thrive with true inquiry-based learning, their success is an exception rather than the standard outcome,” the report said.

 

[sptrawler]

Like I've said over and over teaching and nursing need to go back to the future, to a previous system that had a much better outcomes.
Rather than just making professions a degree, to give pay rises for no improvement of outcomes and to secondly entice paying students.
The problem here is no responsibility of outcomes IMO, the triage nurse has a degree, but she probably can't act on her assumptions despite a degree, without a doctors approval.
So is the problem the nurses degree lacks competence, therefore why have a degree, or the procedures lack the trust in the nurses degree? So why have a degree.
Either make nursing degrees up to the requirements of entry level doctors levels, or get back to where it was before all this nonsense happened making nurses a university course.
Before anyone pays out, the wife did her hospital based RN training in the mid 70's and then did a degree in 2006, so don't try to tell me how to suck eggs.
If nurses are going to be responsible, they need to be vetted better and paid better, it is a doubled edged sword.
Many wouldn't make it, but those that did, would be worth something.

Triage nurse tells inquest into WA girl’s sepsis death that exhausted staff were ‘under pressure’

Jacqueline Taylor tells court she was running desk alone with 96 patients on afternoon Aishwarya Aswath presented

www.theguardian.com

A nurse who inspected Aishwarya Aswath at a Perth hospital has told an inquest into the girl’s death that her triage score was appropriate but says time constraints prevented a more thorough assessment.

Seven-year-old Aishwarya died of sepsis in April last year, hours after presenting to the Perth children’s hospital emergency department with a fever and unusually cold hands.


She had been left in a waiting room for more than 90 minutes, despite her parents pleading with staff to escalate care as her condition deteriorated.
An inquest into her death is examining why their concerns were not acted upon earlier.

 

[SirRumpole]

A nurse who inspected Aishwarya Aswath at a Perth hospital has told an inquest into the girl’s death that her triage score was appropriate but says time constraints prevented a more thorough assessment.

So is the problem training or workload in this case ?

Hopefully the inquest recides.

 

[sptrawler]

So is the problem training or workload in this case ?

Hopefully the inquest recides.

That is the $64,000 question, I think the nurses should be given more authority to make decisions, they do a degree so their level of responsibility should be commensurate with their training.
Having to seek a doctor all the time, must take up a huge amount of the ED nurses time, if the diagnosis is standard and the required procedure is standard, why can't a university graduate nurse commence the procedure.
There seems to be a lot of double handling and waiting around involved.
As you say hopefully the inquest comes up with answers, it would be soul destroying for the parents, getting the child to hospital and waiting around as she passes away.
The nursing staff must feel terrible also, not being in a position to do anything.

 

[SirRumpole]

Education not immigration is the answer to the skills shortage say a majority of economists.

Is education or immigration the answer to our skills shortage? We asked 50 economists

Among the top economists surveyed was the man who designed Australia’s higher education loans scheme – who described funding for vocational education as a “mess”.

theconversation.com

 

[SirRumpole]

A good move by the US government.

All taxpayer funded research to be made freely available by 2025.

The US has ruled all taxpayer-funded research must be free to read. What's the benefit of open access?

Lack of free access to research leads to discrimination, both in academia and for us all. The new guidance from the US is a huge step in the right direction.

theconversation.com

 

[sptrawler]

Education not immigration is the answer to the skills shortage say a majority of economists.

Of course it is, sending kids on to uni whether they are good enough or not is crazy, when we are screaming out for tradespeople.
The main issue is, the Governments don't want to go back to supplying services, when they can just contract it out to the private sector.
I was at a meeting with a manager in a large government organisation, he said they were going to contract out a lot of the maintenance work, I asked how will the apprentices get the experience, his answer we are not here as a training ground for apprentices who will go to the private sector anyway.
I said that is exactly what we are and should be, at least the apprentice is given a comprehensive grounding of the fundamentals, working for a company that does things to a standard not to a budget. That was back in the 1990's and I don't think anything has changed.
I should have saved my breath.

 

[SirRumpole]

Of course it is, sending kids on to uni whether they are good enough or not is crazy, when we are screaming out for tradespeople.
The main issue is, the Governments don't want to go back to supplying services, when they can just contract it out to the private sector.
I was at a meeting with a manager in a large government organisation, he said they were going to contract out a lot of the maintenance work, I asked how will the apprentices get the experience, his answer we are not here as a training ground for apprentices who will go to the private sector anyway.
I said that is exactly what we are and should be, at least the apprentice is given a comprehensive grounding of the fundamentals, working for a company that does things to a standard not to a budget. That was back in the 1990's and I don't think anything has changed.
I should have saved my breath.

I wonder whether trades are attractive to enough people these days.

There is the image of dirty tradies in the dust , mud, hot roofs , septic tanks etc when a lot of the young generation seem to want a clean life in front of a PC doing 'management' type stuff.

I reckon the pay rates for electricians, plumbers metal workers etc will have to increase a lot to compensate.

Maybe people here who are or were tradies can add more.

 

[mullokintyre]

Melbourne University is offering a course in learning how to do an appropriate acknowledgement of country ceremony.
from Melb Uni

This is why I think the Unis have become captured by ideology.
Firstly, for a non indigenous person to be conducting an acknowledgement to country ceremony, its purely cultural appropriation. How on earth can a non indigenousvperson conduct such a ceremony, its logically all wrong.
secondly, why would an indigenous person need to be told about something that is part of their own culture.
only 990 bucks for the course though, pretty good value.
mick

 

[SirRumpole]

Melbourne University is offering a course in learning how to do an appropriate acknowledgement of country ceremony.
from Melb Uni
View attachment 146419
This is why I think the Unis have become captured by ideology.
Firstly, for a non indigenous person to be conducting an acknowledgement to country ceremony, its purely cultural appropriation. How on earth can a non indigenousvperson conduct such a ceremony, its logically all wrong.
secondly, why would an indigenous person need to be told about something that is part of their own culture.
only 990 bucks for the course though, pretty good value.
mick

What can you say ?

Next they will make it compulsory.

Not joking.

 

[sptrawler]

Education not immigration is the answer to the skills shortage say a majority of economists.

Education is the answer, whether it improves, is the question.

Students struggling in maths start high school up to five years behind advanced peers

A survey of 228 teachers also found that most primary school teachers feel under-trained to differentiate their lesson plans so that advanced students can be stretched and slower students can catch up.

www.smh.com.au

Primary school students who struggle with maths are starting high school as much as five years behind their more advanced classmates, setting teachers an almost insurmountable task to close the gap.

Thirty-six per cent of Australian primary school teachers surveyed by Oxford University Press said many of their students were beginning high school without important foundational skills in maths such as knowing their times tables or using estimation to predict answers.
Those students are far more likely to begin secondary school disengaged from mathematics and to experience anxiety about learning maths, increasing the risk that they will fall further behind.

 

[SirRumpole]

Education is the answer, whether it improves, is the question.

Students struggling in maths start high school up to five years behind advanced peers

A survey of 228 teachers also found that most primary school teachers feel under-trained to differentiate their lesson plans so that advanced students can be stretched and slower students can catch up.

www.smh.com.au

Primary school students who struggle with maths are starting high school as much as five years behind their more advanced classmates, setting teachers an almost insurmountable task to close the gap.

Thirty-six per cent of Australian primary school teachers surveyed by Oxford University Press said many of their students were beginning high school without important foundational skills in maths such as knowing their times tables or using estimation to predict answers.
Those students are far more likely to begin secondary school disengaged from mathematics and to experience anxiety about learning maths, increasing the risk that they will fall further behind.

That is very sad. Maybe remedial classes could be set up, but I wouldn't trust teachers to have the required knowledge either.

 

[sptrawler]

That is very sad. Maybe remedial classes could be set up, but I wouldn't trust teachers to have the required knowledge either.

Re introducing the times table, in primary school, would be a great start IMO.
Way too much time spent on social engineering and no time spent on teaching basic maths.

 

[SirRumpole]

Re introducing the times table, in primary school, would be a great start IMO.
Way too much time spent on social engineering and no time spent on teaching basic maths.

I'm surprised they don't do times tables any more. It's the foundation of all Maths.

Maths is seen as something for Geeks when in fact it is an indispensible part of education.

Advanced Maths is not for everyone, but for scientists and engineers you can't go anywhere without it.

 

[mullokintyre]

I'm surprised they don't do times tables any more. It's the foundation of all Maths.

Thats because maths in now recognised as a symbol of white supremacy.
From Scientific American

Racism, sexism and other forms of systematic oppression are not unique to mathematics, and they certainly are not new, yet many in the field still deny their existence. “One of the biggest challenges is how hard it can be to start a conversation” about the problem, Sawyer says, “because mathematicians are so convinced that math is the purest of all of the sciences.” Yet statistics on the mathematics profession are difficult to ignore. In 2019 a New York Times profile of Edray Herber Goins, a Black mathematics professor at Pomona College, reported that “fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans.” A 2020 NSF survey revealed that out of a total of 2,012 doctorates awarded in mathematics and statistics in the U.S. in 2019, only 585 (29.1 percent) were awarded to women. That percentage is slightly lower than in 2010, when 29.4 percent of doctorates in those areas (467 out of 1,590) were awarded to women. (Because these numbers are grouped based on sex rather than gender, that survey did not report how many of those individuals identify as a gender other than male or female.)

What of course the article omits to mention is what percentage of the students even studying math are Afro American.
Maybe they prefer something easier, like studying the origins of RAP music.
Mick

 

[SirRumpole]

Thats because maths in now recognised as a symbol of white supremacy.
From Scientific American

What of course the article omits to mention is what percentage of the students even studying math are Afro American.
Maybe they prefer something easier, like studying the origins of RAP music.
Mick

I could go on about things like this, but creeping political correctness is evident in so many places.

Merit should be what it's all about, not social or gender identity, no wonder our education standards are declining.

Of course, the user pays education system in the US is contributing, a good education over there requires a rich mommy or poppy, but the trends here are not good as well.

Australian students slip in global maths, reading and science rankings

A worldwide study of more than half a million 15-year-olds shows Australian students lag 3.5 years behind their Chinese counterparts in maths — and their performance in all three major subjects is in long-term decline.

www.abc.net.au

 

[mullokintyre]

I could go on about things like this, but creeping political correctness is evident in so many places.

Merit should be what it's all about, not social or gender identity, no wonder our education standards are declining.

Of course, the user pays education system in the US is contributing, a good education over there requires a rich mommy or poppy, but the trends here are not good as well.

Australian students slip in global maths, reading and science rankings

A worldwide study of more than half a million 15-year-olds shows Australian students lag 3.5 years behind their Chinese counterparts in maths — and their performance in all three major subjects is in long-term decline.

www.abc.net.au

The Chinese students don't need a rich mommy or poppy to make the grade.
You really only need mildly interested parents or grandparents.
Thhe higher the level of interest, the better the outcome.
Mick