Economic implications of a SARS/Coronavirus outbreak

[Sdajii]

I suspect you are right - one way or another though we're about to find out given the seasons.

I really doubt it's going to be all that bad; we now know the virus isn't anywhere near as dangerous as was first thought, and the virus is gradually becoming less deadly (as was entirely predictable from the start). There will already been some community exposure during the previous year or so, there will be hygiene measures etc, the hospitals have had a year to prepare, etc etc.

People are acting like no one ever died before this pandemic, and ignoring the obvious fact that it mostly kills people who were soon to die anyway.

If you believe in the vaccine (which I don't), you should be figuring that it'll save the day, and if you either think it will take too long or not be effective, or both, then you should see the insanity in destroying the global economy and causing so much suffering for the sake of marginally delaying the inevitable which we'll have to endure anyway, whether that inevitable part is mild or severe.

 

[SirRumpole]

I really doubt it's going to be all that bad; we now know the virus isn't anywhere near as dangerous as was first thought,

On the contrary, the evidence is that it's a lot more dangerous than we first thought, evidence which has been pointed out many times here.

Long term effects on many organs including brains, lungs, kidneys, heart etc.

However, choose not to believe this if you wish, you are obviously indestructible and nothing will affect you.

Not many are perfect physical specimens and prefer not to take the risk of getting this virus.

 

[Sdajii]

On the contrary, the evidence is that it's a lot more dangerous than we first thought, evidence which has been pointed out many times here.

Long term effects on many organs including brains, lungs, kidneys, heart etc.

However, choose not to believe this if you wish, you are obviously indestructible and nothing will affect you.

Not many are perfect physical specimens and prefer not to take the risk of getting this virus.

You forgot to mention that those cases are extremely rare and the damage is negligible.

You obviously gobble up the scaremongering, but in reality land, most people literally are either immune or have zero symptoms, which contrasts dramatically with the early narrative that this was a novel disease which no humans had any immunity/resistance to.

In the early stages the narrative was that this disease was going to be so devastating that our hospitals would be overwhelmed and the best we could hope for was to flatten the curve so that as few people as possible would be in the peak of the curve and unable to receive hospital care. Contrast that with the reality and hospital capacity hasn't been at any risk of being reached, let alone exceeded, let alone exceeded dramatically.

Yet here you are, looking at obscure cases and using them as 'evidence' that this disease is worse than initially feared!

I'm in regular contact with people from many countries including the USA. I don't know anyone in Australia who knows anyone who has had the virus and have barely been able to find anyone to even speak to who does. Most of my friends in the USA don't even know anyone who has had it. The only person I know first hand who has had with symptoms made a full recovery. The USA is a complete and utter mess for social and political reasons but even there, with riots etc, where supposedly the virus is worst in the world, the hospitals are not overwhelmed and people are wanting to be out and about, quite happy to engage not only in normal, necessary activity but keen to organise all sorts of other public nonsense. If there genuinely was a high risk of death or permanent damage worthy of concern, things would be a lot different. It's a worry that people are willing to not only believe the message of the blatantly dishonest media but even its absurd implications. You dismiss the genuine problems caused by the lockdowns, with gems such as saying mental health is not a concern 'because we're all in this together and we can help each other' (I know plenty of people who have suffered problems you have not and you are more than welcome to help them!) and overblow the problems of the virus while adding fictional ones on top.

 

[SirRumpole]

You forgot to mention that those cases are extremely rare and the damage is negligible.

You obviously gobble up the scaremongering, but in reality land, most people literally are either immune or have zero symptoms, which contrasts dramatically with the early narrative that this was a novel disease which no humans had any immunity/resistance to.

In the early stages the narrative was that this disease was going to be so devastating that our hospitals would be overwhelmed and the best we could hope for was to flatten the curve so that as few people as possible would be in the peak of the curve and unable to receive hospital care. Contrast that with the reality and hospital capacity hasn't been at any risk of being reached, let alone exceeded, let alone exceeded dramatically.

Yet here you are, looking at obscure cases and using them as 'evidence' that this disease is worse than initially feared!

I'm in regular contact with people from many countries including the USA. I don't know anyone in Australia who knows anyone who has had the virus and have barely been able to find anyone to even speak to who does. Most of my friends in the USA don't even know anyone who has had it. The only person I know first hand who has had with symptoms made a full recovery. The USA is a complete and utter mess for social and political reasons but even there, with riots etc, where supposedly the virus is worst in the world, the hospitals are not overwhelmed and people are wanting to be out and about, quite happy to engage not only in normal, necessary activity but keen to organise all sorts of other public nonsense. If there genuinely was a high risk of death or permanent damage worthy of concern, things would be a lot different. It's a worry that people are willing to not only believe the message of the blatantly dishonest media but even its absurd implications. You dismiss the genuine problems caused by the lockdowns, with gems such as saying mental health is not a concern 'because we're all in this together and we can help each other' (I know plenty of people who have suffered problems you have not and you are more than welcome to help them!) and overblow the problems of the virus while adding fictional ones on top.

Well this is a report from the Mayo clinic on the long term effects of covid.

Long COVID questions and answers

COVID-19 can have lasting symptoms that affect many parts of the body. Learn more about the symptoms and effects of long COVID.

www.mayoclinic.org

Did it occur to you that these cases would not be reported in the media as the effects may not be known for some time and so they may be heavily understated ?

Did it also occur to you that hospitals were not 'overwhelmed' because of the restrictions introduced ?

Your anecdotal evidence of the few people you have talked to is not statistically significant compared to reports by doctors who have to treat the illness.

 

[Sdajii]

Well this is a report from the Mayo clinic on the long term effects of covid.

Long COVID questions and answers

COVID-19 can have lasting symptoms that affect many parts of the body. Learn more about the symptoms and effects of long COVID.

www.mayoclinic.org

Did it occur to you that these cases would not be reported in the media as the effects may not be known for some time and so they may be heavily understated ?

Did it also occur to you that hospitals were not 'overwhelmed' because of the restrictions introduced ?

Your anecdotal evidence of the few people you have talked to is not statistically significant compared to reports by doctors who have to treat the illness.

Did you actually read your own link? It makes it sound about as mild and trivial as I've been saying! What point are you trying to make by providing a link which indicates that your own fearmongering is silly?

Obviously we have reduced the number of cases with lockdowns etc. You're dodging the question. It shouldn't be necessary, but he's a reiteration for you:

The initial narrative was that even with extreme lockdowns, the healthcare system would be overwhelmed. We were told it was such a bad disease with people having no immunity/resistance to it (this is now utterly debunked, ie, the virus is not anywhere near the threat it was initially assumed and the models were based on). We were told that even with extreme lockdown measures the hospital system would be overwhelmed and people would be dying because they would not be able to be treated in hospital because there was insufficient capacity. The fact that we haven't had anywhere near that amount of issue shows that the initial assumption was wrong. The assertion, which we now know was incorrect, was that we would have an overwhelmed hospital capacity, that is, even with extreme lockdowns. This hasn't happened anywhere in Australia, with or without lockdowns. Even in the USA which is the poster child of mismanagement (rightly or wrongly), the hospital system is not overwhelmed and there have been very few cases of it even there, despite the healthcare system having been a complete mess and sometimes overwhelmed even before this virus came along.

The fact that you can cling to the absurd notion that this virus is not just as bad, but worse than initially thought, shows how radically divorced from reality you are.

Deaths are nothing like we were initially told to expect, even, and this is massive, even when counting people who die with the disease are counted as having died of the disease, and you compare this figure to the initial estimates of people who would actually die of the disease!

This is tangibly the case according to official data, and yet you still say it's worse! You continually demonstrate that you are not basing your arguments on anything valid. You're clearly just working on an extreme stance of pushing the 'the virus is bad and the mitigation measures are harmless' to the greatest possible extent with absolutely no requirement to be honest (probably including with yourself) or genuine, even to the point of providing a link which proves yourself wrong. Apparently you are so biased that you see evidence which contradicts yourself but you view it through such an extreme filter that you not only believe it says something different from what it does, but you assume others will see it the same way you do!

 

[SirRumpole]

Even in the USA which is the poster child of mismanagement (rightly or wrongly), the hospital system is not overwhelmed and there have been very few cases of it even there, despite the healthcare system having been a complete mess and sometimes overwhelmed even before this virus came along.

Another real report, not your subjective wishful thinking.

Coronavirus: Hospital admissions rise as US heads into Fourth of July holiday | The National

Coronavirus hot-spot Arizona reaches ICU capacity of 91%

www.thenational.ae

 

[satanoperca]

Another real report, not your subjective wishful thinking.

Coronavirus: Hospital admissions rise as US heads into Fourth of July holiday | The National

Coronavirus hot-spot Arizona reaches ICU capacity of 91%

www.thenational.ae

State health officials say the occupancy rate of hospital intensive care units is at an all-time high of 91 per cent.

This means absolutely nothing, as prior to covid the occupancy rate could have been 85%. Of there was 10 ICU beds, prior 5 we occupied, during covid another 4 more where required..

Scare mongering again.

 

[IFocus]

Easy to see how the 2nd wave will bring higher numbers of deaths same as the Spanish flu.

Resistance to isolation's plus many not following the guide lines are high in the 1st wave, 2nd wave will be all out rejection by those not affected or blinded by false opinions.

Health systems over whelmed will affect those life threaten illnesses that require high care treatment.

Northern hemisphere will become a dog fight over the issue.

Money verses health, greed over compassion.

 

[Knobby22]

Another real report, not your subjective wishful thinking.

Coronavirus: Hospital admissions rise as US heads into Fourth of July holiday | The National

Coronavirus hot-spot Arizona reaches ICU capacity of 91%

www.thenational.ae

Note, new curfews. Again letting the virus run means destruction of the economy. the USA economy has really suffered and its not going away.

Israel is in big trouble and there are some very angry business people upset with the government for letting it get out of control.
Now going back into full lockdown. People are furious the government took so long to act and now complete shutdown.

'Atmosphere of rebellion': Israel orders a second virus lockdown many have vowed to ignore

Israel is the first country to order a second, nationwide coronavirus lockdown. But with protesters filling the streets, Government ministers openly revolting and businesses vowing to keep trading, authorities fear a rebellion.

www.abc.net.au

Many other nation states that let the virus run are now putting up restrictions.
It always spreads among the youth first then into the general populace and combined with the two week lag befor death the government always seem to leave it too late. France will be next.

Some good news today, no deaths in Victoria. So all those people who would have died anyway are still alive

 

[satanoperca]

Unusual Features of the SARS-CoV-2 Genome Suggesting Sophisticated Laboratory Modification Rather Than Natural Evolution and Delineation of Its Probable Synthetic Route

If true, this could have some real world implications for China.

 

[Sdajii]

Another real report, not your subjective wishful thinking.

Coronavirus: Hospital admissions rise as US heads into Fourth of July holiday | The National

Coronavirus hot-spot Arizona reaches ICU capacity of 91%

www.thenational.ae

Again, you ignore being called out for lies/nonsense, and provide a link which shoots down your own message!

You're cherry picking an article from months ago which doesn't even say what you're claiming!

You literally push a false narrative and repeatedly use references which don't even support your own claims! Talk about divorced from reality!

Even if you did cherry pick an example of hospitals being briefly overwhelmed, it wouldn't support your claims, but you haven't even managed to do that!

 

[Sdajii]

Easy to see how the 2nd wave will bring higher numbers of deaths same as the Spanish flu.

Resistance to isolation's plus many not following the guide lines are high in the 1st wave, 2nd wave will be all out rejection by those not affected or blinded by false opinions.

Health systems over whelmed will affect those life threaten illnesses that require high care treatment.

Northern hemisphere will become a dog fight over the issue.

Money verses health, greed over compassion.

To whatever extent this is true, it's absurd not to have accounted for human reaction in the modelling. Obviously humans are going to resist their basic human rights being removed, and it's a complete failure of policy not to take this into account. Even if you want to believe that humans *should* be willing to voluntarily surrender their freedom and human rights, you're a food if you fail to realise that they *won't*, and in doing so, you are fighting reality, and reality will win. This is even if we completely ignore the side I take, which is to say that human rights and freedoms have intrinsic importance and should be protected, and that removing them and actively causing deaths and suffering is a bad thing.

 

[Sdajii]

Some good news today, no deaths in Victoria. So all those people who would have died anyway are still alive

Nope! They died anyway! Do you honestly think no old people died in Victoria for a whole day? Literally hundreds did! They literally died anyway. People don't need to die of the virus to die. We simply didn't get to pretend that the virus killed those people as they died their inevitable deaths!

 

[Knobby22]

Your death is inevitable also.

 

[SirRumpole]

Again, you ignore being called out for lies/nonsense, and provide a link which shoots down your own message!

Listen to the medical experts on this disease. Apart from Victoria (where you are), lockdowns achieved the desired results. As as been pointed out places like the US and Israel have let the virus get away and have reinstated lockdowns.

 

[satanoperca]

s

Listen to the medical experts on this disease. Apart from Victoria (where you are), lockdowns achieved the desired results. As as been pointed out places like the US and Israel have let the virus get away and have reinstated lockdowns.

Too early to call, state and international borders are still locked. Until they are lifted and we return to a relatively normal life, will we know if the lockdowns have actually worked?

 

[SirRumpole]

s

Too early to call, state and international borders are still locked. Until they are lifted and we return to a relatively normal life, will we know if the lockdowns have actually worked?

International borders are not "locked". People can still get in as long as they quarantine. And quarantine is where the majority of cases arise.

 

[satanoperca]

International borders are not "locked". People can still get in as long as they quarantine. And quarantine is where the majority of cases arise.

Yes, people are going to come here for holidays or business and be locked up for 14 days.

And if you don't think they are locked, ask the 18,000 Australians trying to return.

Please, strawman argument.

Oh, so lets be on-topic, just ask Qantas staff if the borders are open for business.

 

[Sdajii]

Listen to the medical experts on this disease. Apart from Victoria (where you are), lockdowns achieved the desired results. As as been pointed out places like the US and Israel have let the virus get away and have reinstated lockdowns.

Yet again you dodge the question. You make a false assertion, get called on it, provide a link which proves yourself wrong, change the topic and get it wrong again, get called on it, provide yet another link to prove yet another of your own assertions wrong, and now you change the topic yet again! This is especially disgusting since many of your points are honestly quite shameful.

I'm not going to respond to this point here because it is different from the multiple points I called you on earlier which you cowardly avoided addressing further when you were clearly wrong, and you are using this one posing as a point I disagree with, merely as a decoy.

 

[Sdajii]

Your death is inevitable also.

Indeed, but I am not at risk of dying if I catch the virus, almost entirely because I'm not at high risk of dying of anything else in the next few months, or couple of years or so. The people who did die in the last 24 hours would have died if they caught the virus, and would have been counted as virus deaths, very misleadingly so, but this is openly the practice of the official authorities in most countries, very much including Australia.