Economic implications of a SARS/Coronavirus outbreak

[Sdajii]

The unpleasant reality which we should stop pretending doesn't exist is that depression was already a significant and growing problem in Australia, the system was already not coping with dealing with it properly, and these lockdowns will tremendously increase the problem while reducing our ability to deal with it (those mental healthcare programs cost money, and they are paid by taxes, while rely on a strong economy, which we are destroying).

It's very concerning to see people have the attitude of 'if someone has never had depression before they'll be fine'. There is no sense in saying this and it is a dangerous piece of misinformation to be propagating.

 

[satanoperca]

It's very concerning to see people have the attitude of 'if someone has never had depression before they'll be fine'. There is no sense in saying this and it is a dangerous piece of misinformation to be propagating.

Agree with the statement, but I wonder those that believe, depression is as simple as sucking up would say the same thing to someone who has to deal with it, face a 6ft person, 85kg of physical mass(I am that size as I have to use physical exercise to manage my depression) and trying an explain that it is as simple as sucking it up.

I think most would run, actually most do.

Back to the topic, the hangover from this experiment will drain finances.

 

[lindsayf]

On the topic of the virus and mental health implications..people with family on the other side of a closed border have a double whammy. All of the already mentioned risk factors - loss of vocation/employment, inability to socialise, trauma and sensationalism all over the media 24 hours a day etc AND they cant have physical contact with family members. In some cases family members who are unwell in need of care or even dying. Yes a great recipe for more depression /anxiety and other mental health conditions.

 

[IFocus]

Agree with the statement, but I wonder those that believe, depression is as simple as sucking up

I mix with a wide variety of social, economic, political views etc and haven't heard that or any negative views regarding mental heath for a very long time particularity depression.
I know this hasn't been always the case.

On the other hand talking to people that have depression often they themselves struggle with the social sigma (I am not saying it doesn't exist particularly with employers).
Its a terrible circle but treatable and treatment is available the problem being people getting treatment.

The main issue with mental health (stigma) that I see is it being treated as a police problem and then the police bearing the brunt of dealing with individuals with no place to go rather than it being a health issue with the required funding.

On an economic front good funding of mental health by government has high returns on investment as well as community benefits.

The idea that we should be letting people die of covid to stop suicides because of lack of effort to treat mental health (which we should be doing anyway without covid) is one completely without merit IMHO.

 

[satanoperca]

The idea that we should be letting people die of covid to stop suicides because of lack of effort to treat mental health (which we should be doing anyway without covid) is one completely without merit IMHO.

But are we letting people die of covid, this is the essence of the discussion?

So if someone dies at the age of 70, and they are shown to have covid, did they die of it or was more to it. It is like saying someone who is obese, never exercised, did not eat healthy and dies from the flu, is the flu the reason of death, NO.

As I have clearly shown, all the deaths in Australia have been from people > 60 years old, where they healthy in the first place?

So to take the discussion back onto the topic?

How much is a life worth? That depends on the life being able to contribute or has contributed to society.

 

[SirRumpole]

How much is a life worth? That depends on the life being able to contribute or has contributed to society.

Once you start trying to put a money value on a life you are entering a very dangerous argument.

When you were in hospital in a coma, would you have wanted life support turned off because it was costing too much ?

Yes you can put a dollar value on a life, but if you try to use such a valuation for decision making it will take us down paths we don't want to go.

 

[satanoperca]

Once you start trying to put a money value on a life you are entering a very dangerous argument.
And
When you were in hospital in a coma, would you have wanted life support turned off because it was costing too much ?

Yes you can put a dollar value on a life, but if you try to use such a valuation for decision making it will take us down paths we don't want to go.

bull****, life has always had a value.

6million people have died from starvation this year, could have been solved with less than $10USD a week, did anyone care, no, they are not in your neighborhood.

And yes, I did put a valuation on my survival/life during and after coming out of 2 comas.

If you really want to know, I evaluated living well before the coma and my loving father, who never has done anything wrong was willing to sacrifice his life to forefill my request and part with my life if I could not think, by allowing me to not be brain dead but alive.

Something a parent should never have to face.

So please, I am getting tired of those that think life is forever and will not face death and all lives should be saved regardless of the cost.

We have only so long to live, enjoy, love and experience.

And those that think otherwise stop being so righteous.

 

[SirRumpole]

bull****, life has always had a value.

6million people have died from starvation this year, could have been solved with less than $10USD a week, did anyone care, no, they are not in your neighborhood.

And yes, I did put a valuation on my survival/life during and after coming out of 2 comas.

If you really want to know, I evaluated living well before the coma and my loving father, who never has done anything wrong was willing to sacrifice his life to forefill my request and part with my life if I could not think, by allowing me to not be brain dead but alive.

Something a parent should never have to face.

So please, I am getting tired of those that think life is forever and will not face death and all lives should be saved regardless of the cost.

We have only so long to live, enjoy, love and experience.

And those that think otherwise stop being so righteous.

Right, then just euthenase people when they get to 70 and solve the whole problem.

 

[satanoperca]

Right, then just euthenase people when they get to 70 and solve the whole problem.

Really!

 

[satanoperca]

Right, then just euthenase people when they get to 70 and solve the whole problem.

Okay, lets play the game, seems you have lived a very sheltered life.

Your statement is just stupid, no one has said that, but should we save the life of 70> for a 10> as all things cost money, YES.

So which leads me to think, you cannot accept the reality of all creatures on this planet, you will die.

Should elderly or all people have the right to choose their death, yes. (euthanasia)

Can you please stop with your year 6 statements, and propose a descent agreement that we can discuss, your simple one-liners are both childish, immature and show your lack of understanding of current events and circumstances.

I have asked repeated times, as this is an economic, how much is a human life worth?

 

[PZ99]

Right, then just euthenase people when they get to 70 and solve the whole problem.

Starting with the US

 

[SirRumpole]

I have asked repeated times, as this is an economic, how much is a human life worth?

That very statement indicates your own immaturity. How do you calculate life's value ? Earning power ?

Once a person is retired that value drops to zero. So by that criteria anyone retired has a value of zero. Do you agree with that, if not what other methods would you use ?

 

[SirRumpole]

Starting with the US

Glad you put a "the" in there PZ.

 

[Sdajii]

Agree with the statement, but I wonder those that believe, depression is as simple as sucking up would say the same thing to someone who has to deal with it, face a 6ft person, 85kg of physical mass(I am that size as I have to use physical exercise to manage my depression) and trying an explain that it is as simple as sucking it up.

I think most would run, actually most do.

Back to the topic, the hangover from this experiment will drain finances.

I agree with what you are saying, although I personally would prefer these people saying 'suck it up, princess' were faced with people in the depths of despair, on the edge of suicide, just after suicide, in terrible health, with their lives in tatters, having spent many years/decades in horrible conditions, and be faced with their own words of "We're all in the same boat" (honestly, how can they say that without feeling deep shame? Notice how it's only the people comfortable and isolated from genuine suffering who say 'we are all in the same boat/we're all in this together'?) and sentiments about everyone needing to make sacrifices so that the elderly can remain isolated from their loved ones until dying anyway. To force people into isolation is to remove our very humanity.

 

[Sdajii]

Once you start trying to put a money value on a life you are entering a very dangerous argument.

When you were in hospital in a coma, would you have wanted life support turned off because it was costing too much ?

Yes you can put a dollar value on a life, but if you try to use such a valuation for decision making it will take us down paths we don't want to go.

At some point though, we need to. There are some cases where many millions of dollars could save a life on the taxpayer's dime, and there are ethical debates about it.

We do need to be able to say 'Okay, at some point, it's too much'. The reality is that we lose lives because we don't allocate funding for basic medicine, or housing, or food, etc.

The reality is, if this is genuinely about saving lives, we could save far more simply having an anti obesity campaign. Obesity has a far higher fatality rate than this virus (by all means challenge me on that! There are plenty of figures to back it up!), it also clearly has a far, far higher rate of morbidity, including chronic morbidity. Far more people are already overweight or obese in Australia than the worst case scenario predictions of virus infections for Australia even with no efforts to slow it. The rate of obesity is rapidly rising in Australia. If this is about saving lives, why are we destroying the economy for a trivial virus (trivial compared to the obesity epidemic) and basically ignoring the rapidly growing, very deadly (far, far more deadly than the virus) problem?

Obesity is just one example. There are plenty of things which kill people which could be mitigated and save far more lives than the virus has any hope of taking, for far, far less destruction to the economy or community.

 

[SirRumpole]

I agree with what you are saying, although I personally would prefer these people saying 'suck it up, princess' were faced with people in the depths of despair, on the edge of suicide, just after suicide, in terrible health, with their lives in tatters, having spent many years/decades in horrible conditions, and be faced with their own words of "We're all in the same boat" (honestly, how can they say that without feeling deep shame? Notice how it's only the people comfortable and isolated from genuine suffering who say 'we are all in the same boat/we're all in this together'?) and sentiments about everyone needing to make sacrifices so that the elderly can remain isolated from their loved ones until dying anyway. To force people into isolation is to remove our very humanity.

We are in the same boat in terms of isolation, not in terms of mental state. In any case there a wide range of social media apps that can keep people connected.

More resources are being put into treating depression, but it's a complex disease that doesn't just affect isolated people. Many people can be depressed surrounded by friends and wealth and mental health issues have been coming around long before covid arrived. A member of my family suffered from it many years ago and I hope that treatments have improved since then.

How people can honestly look at what is happening in countries like the US where they were thinking of burying people in parks and say that theirs is a more satisfactory solution to the problem when their gdp has dropped 32% compared to 10% for Australia just isn't living in the real world.

https://www.ft.com/content/3ef9cf43-9437-4e6a-8f62-242b56e8cd64
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...onths-of-hell-u-s-economys-worst-quarter-ever

 

[Sdajii]

We are in the same boat in terms of isolation, not in terms of mental state. In any case there a wide range of social media apps that can keep people connected.

No, we are not!

People living in a high rise apartment who would typically work out in a gym and go to the local swimming pool and travel to the lake and go fishing, but are now trapped inside a tiny room with no opportunity to go to their usual places of recreation, are not in the same boat as someone who lives in a typical suburban house, or someone who lives on acreage! Someone in Melbourne is not in the same boat as someone in Brisbane! If you honestly think we are all in the same boat you obviously have no concept of the world far beyond your own little life.

More resources are being put into treating depression, but it's a complex disease that doesn't just affect isolated people. Many people can be depressed surrounded by friends and wealth and mental health issues have been coming around long before covid arrived. A member of my family suffered from it many years ago and I hope that treatments have improved since then.

The fact that depression is a new disease doesn't mean that it's okay to cause more of it!!! The human brain is still biologically the same as it was before this virus or before you were born or before Australia was called Australia. Depression is a fundamental biological condition. It is no less devastating. Simply saying, and I quote you "I hope that treatments have improved" is not a valid reason to dismiss the issue!

How people can honestly look at what is happening in countries like the US where they were thinking of burying people in parks and say that theirs is a more satisfactory solution to the problem when their gdp has dropped 32% compared to 10% for Australia just isn't living in the real world.

The USA is having problems beyond the virus. Have you not noticed that they were already in political turmoil etc etc before this happened? Do you think rioting and looting and being on the edge of civil war since before the virus was first detected in China was caused by the virus?

 

[satanoperca]

That very statement indicates your own immaturity. How do you calculate life's value ? Earning power ?

Once a person is retired that value drops to zero. So by that criteria anyone retired has a value of zero. Do you agree with that, if not what other methods would you use ?

F---k me, everything can be calculated, what is your life worth, I know but you might not accept, should I have to pay for you to live forever, no.

Again, you make stupid comments. Ie anyone retired has a value of zero, stupid, my beloved parents are retired, their lives are worth something, I talk to them everyday because I value them, but does that mean society should pay for them to live forever, so I never have to grieve over their deaths, NO, stop being so stupid.

 

[SirRumpole]

No, we are not!


The USA is having problems beyond the virus. Have you not noticed that they were already in political turmoil etc etc before this happened? Do you think rioting and looting and being on the edge of civil war since before the virus was first detected in China was caused by the virus?

Cop out !

Do you really think that a 32% reduction in GDP was caused by BLM ?

What planet are you on ?

 

[satanoperca]

That very statement indicates your own immaturity. How do you calculate life's value ? Earning power ?

Once a person is retired that value drops to zero. So by that criteria anyone retired has a value of zero. Do you agree with that, if not what other methods would you use ?

Bring this topic back to the thread subject.
Do we spend $100K on saving the life of a 10 year that can possibly contribute to society for the next 60 years, YES
Do we spend $100K on saving the life of a 70 year old, who can provide little economic contribution to society, NO.

Which one would you choose SIR if you only have $100K to spend?