Do you have to day trade to trade full time?

waz · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

hehe

excactly temjin, I can't, nor can anyone else make consistant postive returns.
Which is why I went back to full time work. i.e a regular job.

Also depending on your trade strategy, you may not be able to use it everyday.
You may spend the entire week on research, 40 hours, but only place 2 trades, making a grand total profit of $50. Then the next week make $1,000. Then the next week only make $50 again.

IN short, in oder for me to do it full time, I would need to save up enough to cover my cost of living, anything extra I can use to trade, and profits can then be used to better my living standard.

No one said that in order to be a full time trader you have to be 'succesful' and beat the market.
You could happily make 5% for the year and still be happy.
You only need to make as much as you require to spend.
And if your requirement is only to spend 5% of your capital per year, why not just put the money in a bank account and live of the interest. You can spend 40 hours a week researching term deposits and future interest rate movements.

Another thing to keep in mind in this discusson is income vs assets.
One daytrader may have 1mil in assets and wants to make 10k a year in income.
Another day trader may have 50k in assets (all their investment capital) and want to make 100k a year in income.
They both spend 40 hours a week to achieve that outcome.

Different goals, same profession.

Mr J · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I agree that 10-20k could be a struggle if one has to pay the bills, but 50k is a walk in the park. You're willing to bet that I can't take $50k and finish with >$100k after 12 months? I don't have 50k, but I'd be interested in a 10k->50k challenge. You wouldn't be able to offer odds that interest me though, as I feel that money would be better spent on trading than sitting in escrow. Nevermind, we'll likely have this discussion in 6-12 months .

tech/a · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

but 50k is a walk in the park.

How do you know that?
Or should that read---I think with $50k it would be a walk in the park.
OR
200% return on $50k should be a walk in the park.

My veiw is $50k to $100K or 200% in this market is very rare!

nunthewiser · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

hmmmmmmm so let me get this right

50 k to 100k within a year is a walk in the park ?

but you havent actually done it yet ?

please enlighten me here as the way i see it , is that you havent actually done it but reckon its easy to do

if it was easy , why havent you done it yet ?

Mr J · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

tech/a said:
How do you know that?
Or should that read---I think with $50k it would be a walk in the park.
OR
200% return on $50k should be a walk in the park.

My veiw is $50k to $100K or 200% in this market is very rare!

Both, but only for a decent short-term trader with modest expenses. I say both, because if a trader can't double $50k they're probably going to struggle, unless their strategy scales decently and they can attract more capital.

In "this market"? Are we talking weeks, months or years here? My experience is limited to this rally. A 200% return is very nice, but I do believe it's very achievable for a short-term trader. I know people will disagree about it being a walk in the park, but I find trading to be no different than driving.

Nun: I have not traded for a year, and I started with far less than $50k. I'm well aware that I don't have much credibility until I can back up these comments with results. Take my statements with a grain of salt, or see some sense in them if you wish.

tech/a · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

if it was easy , why havent you done it yet ?

Because

I agree that 10-20k could be a struggle if one has to pay the bills, but 50k is a walk in the park. You're willing to bet that I can't take $50k and finish with >$100k after 12 months? I don't have 50k, but I'd be interested in a 10k->50k challenge. You wouldn't be able to offer odds that interest me though, as I feel that money would be better spent on trading than sitting in escrow. Nevermind, we'll likely have this discussion in 6-12 months .

nunthewiser · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

tech/a said:
Because

ok i see 10k to 50k there

if it was so easy why hasnt he done it yet ?

the way i see it is all wishful thinking until reality sets in personally

nunthewiser · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

no offence intended of course

nunthewiser · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Mr J said:
Nun: I have not traded for a year, and I started with far less than $50k. I'm well aware that I don't have much credibility until I can back up these comments with results. Take my statements with a grain of salt, or see some sense in them if you wish.

i missed that bit b4

Mr J · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

I'm not offended nun, your position is perfectly reasonable. I'm suggesting something can be done when I haven't achieved it myself. However, I'm not actually saying I can do it, just that I know it can be done. Do you doubt that? Would or agree or disagree that a good trader, with modest expenses, could start a career on 50k?

the way i see it is all wishful thinking until reality sets in personally

No, I think that it is probable that I can achieve that or better. I am very confident I'm a +ev trader, and mathematically I don't need to perform very well to double a balance over a year. At 2%, a 200% return is achievable without compounding. So, say I make 5 trades a day, 25 a week, risking 1% per trade. I'd need an 8% edge to achieve my 2% per week. Sounds very reasonable to me.

I obviously can't prove that I've done this, but I'm quite prepared to try and show it going forward. The real question though is whether you're skeptical whether it can be done by a decent trader, or whether it can be done by me. My point isn't that I can do it (although I believe I can), but that a good trader can.

i missed that bit b4

Because I added it after your first reply.

nulla nulla · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

when you've done it , tell us how to do it. If you can do 10k to 50k in 12 months, then we should be able to do 100k to 500k following the same guidelines. Oddly enough the statistics indicate that the majority of day traders fail and ultimately give their money to the bigger traders, like nunthewiser . lol, be careful.

wayneL · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Here is something I've posted before. A little bit at a tangent, anyway - FWIW

http://epchan.blogspot.com/2007/02/in-praise-of-day-trading.html

Which brings me to day-trading. In the popular press, day-trading has been given a bad-name. Everyone seems to think that those people who sit in sordid offices buying and selling stocks every minute and never holding over-night positions are no better than gamblers. And we all know how gamblers end up, right? Let me tell you a little secret: in my years working for hedge funds and prop-trading groups in investment banks, I have seen all kinds of trading strategies. In 100% of the cases, traders who have achieved spectacularly high Sharpe ratio (like 6 or higher), with minimal drawdown, are day-traders.

nunthewiser · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Mr J said:
I'm not offended nun, your position is perfectly reasonable. I'm suggesting something can be done when I haven't achieved it myself. However, I'm not actually saying I can do it, just that I know it can be done. Do you doubt that? Would or agree or disagree that a good trader, with modest expenses, could start a career on 50k?

No, I think that it is probable that I can achieve that or better. I am very confident I'm a +ev trader, and mathematically I don't need to perform very well to double a balance over a year. At 2%, a 200% return is achievable without compounding. So, say I make 5 trades a day, 25 a week, risking 1% per trade. I'd need an 8% edge to achieve my 2% per week. Sounds very reasonable to me.

I obviously can't prove that I've done this, but I'm quite prepared to try and show it going forward. The real question though is whether you're skeptical whether it can be done by a decent trader, or whether it can be done by me. My point isn't that I can do it (although I believe I can), but that a good trader can.

Because I added it after your first reply.

fair enough and yes i believe and know it can be done

good luck with it and hopefully see ya back in a year telling us how great you been

cheers

nunthewiser · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

nulla nulla said:
when you've done it , tell us how to do it. If you can do 10k to 50k in 12 months, then we should be able to do 100k to 500k following the same guidelines. Oddly enough the statistics indicate that the majority of day traders fail and ultimately give their money to the bigger traders, like nunthewiser . lol, be careful.

im just a lil fish in a big pond nulla

Mr J · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

nulla nulla said:
when you've done it , tell us how to do it. If you can do 10k to 50k in 12 months, then we should be able to do 100k to 500k following the same guidelines. Oddly enough the statistics indicate that the majority of day traders fail and ultimately give their money to the bigger traders, like nunthewiser . lol, be careful.

My trading wouldn't scale that efficiently. 10k into 50k is quite different to 100k into 500k, which is why the common argument of whether "fund managers can't achieve it, so how can you?" is meaningless.

Yes, the majority of traders fail, and obviously I believe that I'm in the group that are destined to succeed. It wouldn't be wrong to assume I'm biased, but I think I'm as objective as someone could be about their own trading. I must point out that I'm not the typical beginner, as I have heavy exposure to similar activities. I already have the correct mindset, knowledge of risk management, mental and emotional control, so it just comes down to whether or not the trades themselves are +ev. I believe they are, so I give myself a high chance of success. I could be fooling myself though, so I can't deny that I may not be profitable now, or ever.

good luck with it and hopefully see ya back in a year telling us how great you been

I imagine I'll have a couple thousand posts .

wayneL · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

As far as claims, you lot are downright conservative.

Our South Australian ex-welder friend that has been discussed before claims you can make $5,000 A WEEK, with a $20,000 capital base, daytrading options FFS.

Another spruiker doing the rounds of the blogs claims:

All of you have different reasons for wanting to receive personalized instruction from me, but one thing is for certain: you would like to be successful in your own trading as I am in mine. With a track record like mine, this comes as no surprise:

2002: +2.04 (quarter year)
2003: +5.05
2004: +37.42%
2005: +88.20%
2006: +103.67%
2007: +144.13%
2008: +256.11%
2009: +201.10% (As of July 8, goal: +300%)

Yet another option "guru" claims:

When you don’t actually own a stock you can still buy the rights to that stock and then turn around and sell someone rights against your rights. Just like renting and sub-leasing. The spread, or difference in price, is your profit. That profit can vary but if you do it right you should be able to generate at least a 20% profit each month - yea that’s right, I said each MONTH.

Whadaya think of them apples?

So_Cynical · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Q: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

A: No

Going on how ive done over the last financial year (did my tax last night) a capital base of about 600K would give me about 1K a week...don't know how i would sleep though, and that's without leverage and just going long on stocks, part time.

Mr J · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Wayne, I posted a chart in the SPI thread showing a nice 100 tick move downwards with 9 or so entries. It could have seen capital grow 50% in one day with responsible pyramiding. I do believe my numbers here are actually conservative. As to your friend, he may be high as a kite, but I wouldn't know!

Regarding possible returns, I think TH's Nothing to Something thread confirms that seemingly unbelievable returns are possible with great skill. That should be enough to confirm that seemingly great returns are possible with decent skill.

wayneL · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

Mr J said:
Wayne, I posted a chart in the SPI thread showing a nice 100 tick move downwards with 9 or so entries. It could have seen capital grow 50% in one day with responsible pyramiding. I do believe my numbers here are actually conservative. As to your friend, he may be high as a kite, but I wouldn't know!

Regarding possible returns, I think TH's Nothing to Something thread confirms that seemingly unbelievable returns are possible with great skill. That should be enough to confirm that seemingly great returns are possible with decent skill.

J

All things are possible, some things aren't, some fooled by randomness.

I'm a great fan of day trading, hence the Ernie Chan quotation a few posts back.

Here's my 2c. It's not prudent to view day trading results the same way as investment return, because it's a job, not investing. You need some capital, but not a hell of a lot to make a good wage, if you're good at it.

So is it possible to turn $10k into $50k in a year? Sure! It's possible. Many do it. But take out your tax and living expenses and you're back to 10k.

#### that!

I don't day trade much any more because I don't want to concentrate that hard, but still do if I feel like it. But with a decent capital base you can do very well. There are some who are trading freaks like TH who can turn $1000 into anything they like.

It's possible, no question.

nomore4s · 17 July 2009

Re: Do you have to daytrade to trade fulltime?

wayneL said:
Whadaya think of them apples?

Maybe I should forget about trading and just start selling options courses, lol.

Do you have to day trade to trade full time?

waz

Mr J

tech/a

No Ordinary Duck

nunthewiser

Mr J

tech/a

No Ordinary Duck

nunthewiser

nunthewiser

nunthewiser

Mr J

nulla nulla

Positive Expectancy

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

nunthewiser

nunthewiser

Mr J

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

So_Cynical

The Contrarian Averager

Mr J

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

nomore4s

Commonsense isn't that common

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