Do you have solar panels?

[Smurf1976]

The best thing about solar panels is the electricity companies have to pay the owners of the panels more than the going rate for wholesale electricity

I'm very sure that to the extent that there's money to be made in electricity it sure isn't in generation. Networks account for most of what consumers pay, retail is rather profitable too in many cases, but there's not a lot of money in the generation side these days.

Consumers get upset that they're paid 5 - 6 cents / kWh for solar fed into the grid. Suffice to say that large scale generators would be pretty happy with that price if they could get it.

Broadly speaking, the large scale generators are staying in business by:

*Running old plants that cost very little to operate but which wouldn't be economic to replace. They'll exit the industry when the plant wears out. Hazelwood is the best known plant in that category but it's certainly not the only one (just the best known).

*Make most of their money in retail rather than generation. Having their own generation is simply a means of avoiding wholesale price risk but isn't overly profitable as such. Any of the big retailers with their own generation.

*Have a generation business that's coupled with their gas business and works to optimise the two and collectively it's profitable through various tricks. They can drive a much harder bargain for their gas when they've got the alternative option of just using it themselves for power generation.

*Are profitable only due to the renewable aspect of their output than from the electricity per se. Hydro Tas is the most obvious one there but certainly not the only one in that situation.

*Are running what amounts to a financial trading operation with the physical production of electricity being just a means of enabling the trading. Snowy Hydro comes to mind there.

*Are losing money most of the time, being profitable only due to the occasional price spike. Plenty in that category.

*Aren't actually profitable at all but are still in the generation business for reasons of avoiding plant closure and cleanup costs, a hope that others will close first and send prices up so as to make their own operation viable, being locked into fuel supply contracts or for reasons of risk management in their retail business.

In Tas, Hydro gets 22.7% of the retail price of electricity to households. Networks get 59.6% and the rest is retail and other things. It's fairly similar in most parts of the country. Poles and wires bring in a lot more $ than turbines and alternators.

 

[Craton]

Gross meter = all your solar goes into the grid (in an administrative sense) and is paid at whatever FIT rate you receive. All power you use within the house is then drawn from the grid (in an administrative sense) and charged at the (higher) price for grid power.

Net meter = your solar is connected to the load side of the meter so the meter only "sees" the net flow into or out of your home to the grid. So if you are generating 3kW and using 2kW yourself, then the meter sees that as 1kW going into the grid and that's what it records (it has no idea how much is actually being generated and used, just what the net flow is). So if your FIT is lower than what you are paying for power this will result in lower bills.

Note that net metering is on an instantaneous basis and is not based on accumulation over time. So if you generate 3kW right now and use 2kW then you receive the FIT for the 1kW going into the grid. If you then turn the oven on and the sun stops shining, so that you are now generating 1kW and using 4kW, the 3kW being drawn from the grid will be charged at the applicable rate. The power you previously exported is not "banked" or stored - you sold it and were paid at the FIT rate, now you're buying and will be charged at the appropriate (higher) price. It's all done on an instantaneous real time basis with nothing "banked" or "stored".

So if you want to remain on grid and minimise your bills then the standard answer is to shift your power use to when the sun is shining. So instead of running the dishwasher at 10pm and paying for power from the grid, you run it at noon and use your own power that would otherwise be exported at the FIT rate.

One way to maximise use of your own power, if you have electric storage (with a tank) hot water is a device such as the Immersun or Optimmersion. This is an electronic device that monitors power flow into / out of your house and adjusts (in a constantly variable manner - like an audio volume control but fully automatic) how much power goes into the water heater. So if you are producing 2kW from solar and using 1.2 kW for your appliances at that time, then the Immersun sends the other 0.8 kW into the hot water (up to the point where the tank is fully heated and the thermostat switches it off, after which any surplus power is exported to the grid in the normal manner).

If you've already got solar panels and electric hot water then in practice this device turns your existing water heater into a solar one, albeit an electrically powered solar heater but it's still making use of the power you generate yourself so as to minimise both import and export to the grid. So you use the power that's worth 5 cents / kWh (FIT) instead of paying whatever rate to buy power from the grid and heat water with it. The device is able to incorporate a "fully heat the tank using grid power overnight if it wasn't fully heated once the sun went down" function so that you'll still have hot water even if there's heavy cloud all day or you have the air-con running and using all your solar production.

To use the Immersun all you need is an existing solar power system and an electric water heater of sufficient capacity to provide hot water with once per day heating (same as normal off-peak except for the different time of heating it).

Note that this works with conventional electric systems only and cannot be used with heat pumps.

Any electrician could install it, but you'd be wise to find a good one since most will have no prior experience with this as it's a relatively new product that doesn't (yet) have a lot of market penetration.

Retailers - no comment there since I could reasonably be considered as biased toward Momentum (100% owned by Hydro Tas). http://www.momentumenergy.com.au/

I'll add a comment though that despite the rather large problems Hydro has at the moment, Momentum customers in the mainland states won't be facing power shortages or having their lights go out. So long as Hydro can't generate that power (and has no means of getting it across Bass Strait with the broken cable), supply is simply being purchased from the market (ie rival generation businesses) with Momentum acting purely as a retailer. So it's business as usual so far as Momentum and its customers in NSW, Vic and SA are concerned.

Big thing to look out for with any retailer is "discounts" and other complex pricing arrangements intended to confuse rather than inform. Just because you're supposedly getting a 30% discount from a retailer doesn't mean you're necessarily paying a lower price than with another retailer that offers no discount at all. Getting 30% off isn't a good deal if their prices were double what others were charging to start with. So you need to look at the actual prices and ignore the "discount" scam.

Time of use pricing, where it's an option, is another potential trap. Some will win, some will lose, and it all depends on how much you use and when. My personal opinion is that you've best to avoid it where possible unless you're very sure you'll actually save money due to most of your use being at the cheaper times.

Thank you for a most detailed reply, really appreciated. I like the idea of that Immersun unit and yep, I know it'll be a mine field out there when the time comes. Bit hard to navigate as things, no doubt, will change down the track.

FWIW, my little 1.5kW system churned out over 9kW the other day when I remembered to check. Might not seem like much but I've only had to shell out $23.00 in the last six months for electricity. Guess that's one of the benefits of being an empty nest widower and living in the sunny outback.

Looking at the cost of larger systems I may add to my little solar array as costs have come down.

Cheers again.

 

[pixel]

The problem is, our federal government has no plan! Can you believe it? No plan beyond 2020, and that’s only four short years from today. So, we did what sensible folks do when there’s no decent plan set to make a clean, renewable future a reality: we wrote one for them.

A Plan to consider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TFXrpyxNuQ

 

[Muschu]

After procrastinating and doing on-off research for 3 years I finally had a 6+ Kw system installed yesterday in Perth. 2 story home with steep roof pitch. All Austrian or German products and used a smaller installer I had heard of through satisfied friends.
I don't know what this would have cost when the now-cancelled 47 c rebate was in, but this set us back $6175.
Our last power bill helped with this decision

 

[Wyatt]

Good move. Having had a 6+KW system on my roof for nearly 5 years and a smaller system prior to that, I can vouch that solar is great (especially on a nice feed in tariff) It is very consistent over the years. You may have seen the chart where you can look up your nearest city, then azimuth and roof angle and after considering any shading get within a percent or 2 of what you are going to harvest. I hope you bought a SMA inverter.
You can also log performance for free if you could be bothered

https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=12896&sid=10826

 

[noco]

After procrastinating and doing on-off research for 3 years I finally had a 6+ Kw system installed yesterday in Perth. 2 story home with steep roof pitch. All Austrian or German products and used a smaller installer I had heard of through satisfied friends.
I don't know what this would have cost when the now-cancelled 47 c rebate was in, but this set us back $6175.
Our last power bill helped with this decision

I outlaid $5000 some 2 years ago and get $80 to $90 rebate every 3 months......The best scenario being $360 per year.......It is a dead loss a as far as I am concerned.

 

[moXJO]

I outlaid $5000 some 2 years ago and get $80 to $90 rebate every 3 months......The best scenario being $360 per year.......It is a dead loss a as far as I am concerned.

Is that off your power bill, or your power bill costs plus $80-$90 on top?

 

[noco]

Is that off your power bill, or your power bill costs plus $80-$90 on top?

As I stated it is the rebate off my power bill......Ergon Energy pay 7.44 cents kwh into the grid...They started at 9 cents per kwh and the slowly reduced it without notice.

They charge 24.6 kwh for uncontrolled power and 19.96 kwh for controlled power to hot Water and Air con units.

We don't have a choice up here.....Take it or leave it.

 

[Smurf1976]

Strangely enough this Smurf jumped at the opportunity to put a power station on the roof back in 2009.

Cost me a grand total of absolutely nothing. Got the $8K government grant, plus $800 worth of REC's, and the electricity distributor kindly threw in the meter changeover for free as well. So not a bad deal really, even posting the forms back was reply paid and the phone call was a 1800 number too. Bargain!

My thinking back then was actually that I was doing something rather unique. First house in the area with solar and I honestly didn't think it would become anywhere near as popular as it has. The only people really interested back then were electricians, engineers and other technical type people - and suffice to say I did get quite a few knocks on the door from random strangers who saw the panels and asked if I'd tell them about it and how it worked. Go forward a few years and solar panels are pretty much everywhere now.

Added some more panels later at my own cost for everything. Got 33 of them in total including the original 6. Working nicely and in 2013 I decided to add data recording so I've got daily production data for the past 3.5 years now.

As an investment it's not the single most profitable thing I've ever done but it hasn't been too bad overall.

One aspect I like is risk mitigation. I'm on the high rate FIT until the end of 2018 after which it drops to the standard rate which isn't much (but for the record, large scale power stations are getting even less per kWh and aren't anywhere near as profitable as you might expect so don't complain too much about what solar owners get - most of your power bill goes to the networks not generation, of that I am extremely sure).

But, and I see this is as a definite plus, in the event that something bad were to happen to me then most likely I'd be home more often during the day. Unemployment, disability, whatever. And if I'm home more often then I'll be using more power when the sun is shining such that the financial benefit of having the system increases in a situation where I'd need it most. I like that aspect being there but hopefully won't have reason to benefit from it.

For my other low energy stuff, well the heat pump water heater is now 7.25 years old and despite the predictions of many has been flawless thus far. It's in profit now so I won't have lost even if it did die tomorrow. With a bit of luck though it'll keep working for a while yet.

 

[Muschu]

Good move. Having had a 6+KW system on my roof for nearly 5 years and a smaller system prior to that, I can vouch that solar is great (especially on a nice feed in tariff) It is very consistent over the years. You may have seen the chart where you can look up your nearest city, then azimuth and roof angle and after considering any shading get within a percent or 2 of what you are going to harvest. I hope you bought a SMA inverter.
You can also log performance for free if you could be bothered

https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=12896&sid=10826

Not SMA but Fronius Symo - both very good. Panels are Solar World Bifacial [glass either side].. Generating beautifully.

 

[Muschu]

I outlaid $5000 some 2 years ago and get $80 to $90 rebate every 3 months......The best scenario being $360 per year.......It is a dead loss a as far as I am concerned.

That's odd... What size system and where are you located?

 

[Joe Blow]

I got a 3.2kw system installed a couple of months ago and got the meter upgraded at the same time. I spent a little more and went for Jinko panels and a Fronius inverter. Total cost was about $5,000.

The key seems to be to use as much power as possible during the day, so we run the dishwasher and washing machine during daylight hours and try to only use minimal power during the evening. Using this approach we have managed to reduce our power consumption to about 4 or 5kwh a day. I switched from AGL to Powershop and for fun I am trying to see how little I can actually pay for power. On a good day the system will generate about 15 to 20kwh, with excess being exported back to the grid. Based on my current usage I should be down to about a dollar a day or perhaps a little more if there are a lot of overcast days. There are only two of us in the house but I estimate at this rate we'll save a couple of hundred dollars each quarter on average which will mean the system will be paid back in about five or six years.

If it wasn't for the daily supply charge of about $1, we'd be doing a lot better out of it.

 

[Muschu]

..............
The key seems to be to use as much power as possible during the day..............\

Yes pretty much pointless otherwise.

 

[noco]

That's odd... What size system and where are you located?

I have a 3.2 kw and am located in Townsville

 

[bellenuit]

Yes pretty much pointless otherwise.

Except for those who are on a good Feed In Tariff, in which case the opposite is true. I get 47 cents or thereabouts, so I have gone to a Smart Meter and push most of my power needs to nighttime which is about 50% of the normal rate.

 

[luutzu]

I got a 3.2kw system installed a couple of months ago and got the meter upgraded at the same time. I spent a little more and went for Jinko panels and a Fronius inverter. Total cost was about $5,000.

The key seems to be to use as much power as possible during the day, so we run the dishwasher and washing machine during daylight hours and try to only use minimal power during the evening. Using this approach we have managed to reduce our power consumption to about 4 or 5kwh a day. I switched from AGL to Powershop and for fun I am trying to see how little I can actually pay for power. On a good day the system will generate about 15 to 20kwh, with excess being exported back to the grid. Based on my current usage I should be down to about a dollar a day or perhaps a little more if there are a lot of overcast days. There are only two of us in the house but I estimate at this rate we'll save a couple of hundred dollars each quarter on average which will mean the system will be paid back in about five or six years.

If it wasn't for the daily supply charge of about $1, we'd be doing a lot better out of it.

That's what the brochure said

The power our system generated equal or surpass our usage during Summer. So even if service fees and stuff are included, we'd only be paying about $3 a quarter for power.

But AGL is pretty clever and so charges us some 27c while our feed in goes to them for 7c.

Last bill was some $500 a quarter, after rebating us our $29.

 

[pixel]

Before ordering our first solar panels in 2009, I did the sums; had to make some vague assumptions because, at the time, not much solid evidence was available. So I simply discounted the figures in the prospectus and worked on 4.5kWh per average day with rising power costs. The cost for a 1kW system came to a little over $3,500, so I arrived at an estimated return on investment of 7-8 years, and every year past that would save a some $400+ off power bills.
I didn't even figure the rebate for excess power sold into the grid. Without FIT, it doesn't make sense to sell for 7 or 8c only to buy it back for 27c when the sun don't shine.

Once the 40c FIT was introduced a year later, the calculation changed dramatically. Every exported unit would net us 47c, buying it back later cost a bit over half of that. That made an upgrade financially attractive, even though the installer charged the same amount for the 2nd lot as he had done for the first, which included the inverter. (Apparently, the initial installation had benefited from a Government subsidy, whereas the upgrade had to be paid in full.)
Now it makes of course sense to use as little power as possible during the day and export as much as possible. In a 2-person household, there isn't much scope though. In summer, the air conditioner is needed when it's hot. As we also have solar hot water, it doesn't matter when we do the dishes or take a shower, and the light bulbs have long been replaced by LED lamps.

After 7 years, and regular record keeping of production rates and consumption charges, I am happy to say that my initial assumption was pretty close to the mark. We're just about at break-even point, and the remaining 3 1/2 years of the FIT contract will add ample interest to the ROI - something I had decided to ignore in my initial estimate.

 

[Muschu]

Except for those who are on a good Feed In Tariff, in which case the opposite is true. I get 47 cents or thereabouts, so I have gone to a Smart Meter and push most of my power needs to nighttime which is about 50% of the normal rate.

Yes true of course but no longer available in WA. I think, here, this better scheme had a 10 year expiry. I think this has a way to go. Even small systems do well out of this atm.
The other side of the coin is that system prices have decreased significantly.

 

[moXJO]

As I stated it is the rebate off my power bill......Ergon Energy pay 7.44 cents kwh into the grid...They started at 9 cents per kwh and the slowly reduced it without notice.

They charge 24.6 kwh for uncontrolled power and 19.96 kwh for controlled power to hot Water and Air con units.

We don't have a choice up here.....Take it or leave it.

That's what the brochure said

The power our system generated equal or surpass our usage during Summer. So even if service fees and stuff are included, we'd only be paying about $3 a quarter for power.

But AGL is pretty clever and so charges us some 27c while our feed in goes to them for 7c.

Last bill was some $500 a quarter, after rebating us our $29.

Pretty cr.ap return. I was thinking of installing solar but might wait it out.

 

[pixel]

Pretty cr.ap return. I was thinking of installing solar but might wait it out.

"cr.ap return only if you over-capitalise, trying to make money from power generation. If you configure your installation to meet your daily consumption, you save the full 27c or whatever your GST-inclusive cost per unit.