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If you can't beat 'em, join 'em...
Got mine up recently.
Got mine up recently.
Do you have solar panels?
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Welcome to the Club
Our 2kW system is averaging 8.9 kWh per day over the last 4 years. (Orientation N-E isn't ideal.)
We use 50% ourselves and export the other half at WA's FIT.
So far, the savings have recouped 65% of the initial installation and service costs.
(Note that 4-5 years ago, SPV systems were considerably dearer than nowadays.)
Value Collector
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Greetings & salutations
Has anyone tried the micro inverter technology, most specifically Enphase ?
These have a small inverter under each panel.
The disadvantage is they cost more!
The cited advantages are somewhat technical, but according to them,
* in a single inverter DC string system, if ANY of the panels is below max efficient, this will affect total output
ie weakest link in the chain,,, the microinverters gets around this.
* along the same line, the single DC inverters need a certain amount of voltage to "wake up"
(microinverters will put out power earlier and later in the day)
* safer, as no 600V DC...they are 48V AC (I believe)
* complete wi-fi monitoring of all that goes on (for you and company)
* modular, so MUCH more easily expanded later
* (arguably) with a one-only inverter, reliability is a BIG issue. I am led to believe inverters fail
This stuff is well developed and seems the way of the future
I have 3 phase power, which causes complications, especially inverter wise
Quoted cost for a 5kw = $10K
I have had estimates from single inverter systems of between $5k to $13K
My annual power bill is approaching $5k, and I can reprogram some of my electricity usage
Intend living in the same house till I croak
Has anyone tried the micro inverter technology, most specifically Enphase ?
These have a small inverter under each panel.
The disadvantage is they cost more!
The cited advantages are somewhat technical, but according to them,
* in a single inverter DC string system, if ANY of the panels is below max efficient, this will affect total output
ie weakest link in the chain,,, the microinverters gets around this.
* along the same line, the single DC inverters need a certain amount of voltage to "wake up"
(microinverters will put out power earlier and later in the day)
* safer, as no 600V DC...they are 48V AC (I believe)
* complete wi-fi monitoring of all that goes on (for you and company)
* modular, so MUCH more easily expanded later
* (arguably) with a one-only inverter, reliability is a BIG issue. I am led to believe inverters fail
This stuff is well developed and seems the way of the future
I have 3 phase power, which causes complications, especially inverter wise
Quoted cost for a 5kw = $10K
I have had estimates from single inverter systems of between $5k to $13K
My annual power bill is approaching $5k, and I can reprogram some of my electricity usage
Intend living in the same house till I croak
Knobby22
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Sounds interesting awg.
Has anyone installed a small system that doesn't require a solar meter?
I am building a house and thinking of sticking up just a couple of kW to take the edge off.
Has anyone installed a small system that doesn't require a solar meter?
I am building a house and thinking of sticking up just a couple of kW to take the edge off.
ghotib
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Yes!! 3Kw system from Enphase installed on the shed roof in February. It's performing better than I expected even though it's shaded from early afternoon. We'll be adding panels on the house roof some time in the next 2 years, which will mean some part of the system is generating in all daylight hours and we still have our big windbreak trees. We also have 3 phase power.
We paid about $7000. My husband did the specification and pricing. He reckons 5Kw should be around $11,500. He also says it's worth taking the trouble to get all your pumps and other essentials onto the solar "phase" (=circuit?).
Very pleased with the system and we're getting a lot of fun out of optimising our power use.
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ditto, we started with 1KW in 2009 and doubled that later.
Initially, we were told the smart meter would be $400 more for 3-phase, but they only invoiced $295.
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Thankyou
I have been very slack up till now in the solar energy department, but some recent high bills made me
sit up and do some research.
Even though I have qualifications in electronics, sorting thru the various options over a few hours, there is quite a lot to consider.
To me, the be-all & end-all is "payback time", also whether the equipment will last its expected life.
I would like to be able to do a more thorough analysis of my power usage/bill, its not especially easy, partially because...salesmen will tell any lie, no matter how gross.
I do not know how much above average a $5K power bill is, with 3-7 adults at various times
On the issue of metering and 3 phase inverters, at this time, apparently no power company will confirm in writing that they will not reprogram their meter at any time, in a way that is most unfavorable to 3 phase users.
That is a complex topic, I can give links if requested
with regard to inverters, my opinion is it is wise to buy the best quality one can afford, and the best quality 3 phase items are a bit of a step up in price.
I have not had quotes from many as yet. A fair bit more calculations in store for me
Battery storage coming to market will hopefully be favorable
4 KW - 15 x LG 275W panels. 8 face 10d NNE. 7 panels face WNW. SMA inverter. $6,700 included the meter and we used a well regarded contractor that is slightly more expensive than average.
We're in Sydney and expect 7 to 10 year payback - depending how much load we shift to daytime. In winter we use 50%-60% and export the rest. Summer is better. If electricity price goes down, payback would stretch out ;-)
We're in Sydney and expect 7 to 10 year payback - depending how much load we shift to daytime. In winter we use 50%-60% and export the rest. Summer is better. If electricity price goes down, payback would stretch out ;-)
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I'm not sure about the efficiency of a system where panels point in different directions. From what I've read, I obtained the impression that the output depends on the least efficient panel, which I take to mean, if one panel is50% shaded, the entire system will produce only at 50% capacity. If that is correct - and electrician experts will correct me if not - then your WNW panels would reduce the overall performance in the morning, and the panels looking slightly East drag you down in the afternoon.
As an aside on electricity price going down: Watch out for those big pink animals with curly tails flying overhead! Their droppings not only smell atrociously like pig pen, but will leave nasty stains. They may even break a panel, should they land on one.
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It's even worse than that.
A panel has typically 60 or 72 cells connected in series. Then you have typically 6 - 10 panels also connected in series.
Since they're all connected in series, you really only need to shade one individual cell to seriously drop the output of the entire system. TV antennas, sewer vent pipes, heater flues, even power lines will cause enough shade to produce a very significant drop in total system output.
So you want each string, that is set of panels in series, to be unshaded.
As for panels facing different directions, that's fine if they are separate strings connected in parallel but not if they are in series.
OK = two sets of (say) 8 panels, 16 in total, with 8 facing one way and the other 8 facing the other way, both strings connected in parallel to the inverter.
Not OK = one string with any panels facing a different direction.
Personally, I've got panels facing N, E and W spread across two inverters. One inverter has panels facing N and E (separate strings), the other has panels facing E and W (also on separate strings). So that's 4 strings feeding 2 inverters. All good.
As an aside on electricity price going down: Watch out for those big pink animals with curly tails flying overhead! Their droppings not only smell atrociously like pig pen, but will leave nasty stains. They may even break a panel, should they land on one.
Best option is to compare prices between competing retailers and don't forget to look at the actual price you are paying and don't get sucked in by any supposed "discounts"
If retailer x is offering a 30% discount on a price of 40 cents / kWh then that's a lot more expensive than another retailer offering 25 cents / kWh and no discount. The "discounts" are basically a marketing trick intended to fool those who assume a 30 or even 50% discount will automatically be good value. It's not good value if they just doubled the price first before giving you that supposed discount.
Beware also of "lock in" contracts that are one sided. You're locked in to a retailer for 2 years but that retailer isn't locked into what price they charge. Read the fine print.
I'm not sure about the efficiency of a system where panels point in different directions. From what I've read, I obtained the impression that the output depends on the least efficient panel, which I take to mean, if one panel is50% shaded, the entire system will produce only at 50% capacity. If that is correct - and electrician experts will correct me if not - then your WNW panels would reduce the overall performance in the morning, and the panels looking slightly East drag you down in the afternoon.
Important point for sure. The inverter has two inputs (one for each string of panels), and two separate MPPTs. I'm no expert, but as I understand it, each MPPT (maximum power point tracking) looks at the output and optimizes for what that string of panels is doing.
ghotib
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We went with microinverters - i.e. one inverter per panel - partly to avoid this "weakest panel" problem. The other reason was to enable easy expansion of the system.I'm not sure about the efficiency of a system where panels point in different directions. From what I've read, I obtained the impression that the output depends on the least efficient panel, which I take to mean, if one panel is50% shaded, the entire system will produce only at 50% capacity. If that is correct - and electrician experts will correct me if not - then your WNW panels would reduce the overall performance in the morning, and the panels looking slightly East drag you down in the afternoon.
As an aside on electricity price going down: Watch out for those big pink animals with curly tails flying overhead! Their droppings not only smell atrociously like pig pen, but will leave nasty stains. They may even break a panel, should they land on one.
As for those flying pink snorting animals, several energy retailers have recently lowered their usage charges and increased the fixed charge. Which makes payback slower for generators but faster for batteries. Off-grid here we come (in a couple of years anyway).
Watch out for swine poo dropping between the patches of bat guano. The new July 1 prices dropped what we pay from $0.258 to $0.246 per kWh (includes consumption charges, supply charge, GST, and the pay-on-time-and-online discount). I suppose the reduction from no carbon tax and low coal prices are working their way through the system?
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Not so.
Please have a look in the other energy thread.
Supply charge for Origin (in Brisbane) just went up 39%. I have included a scan of my invoice as proof.
I read on whirlpool that AGL and Click Energy are similar in regards to their price rises.
But hey, screwing the customer is OK? As soon as off grid becomes affordable, l bet a tin of people will be giving the energy companies the middle finger, me included.....
I'm only speaking for myself. Ours is with Origin (via Endeavour) in NSW.
We buy about 1500 kWh per quarter. Based on that and beginning July 1:
- supply charge goes from $71 to $74 per quarter
- thresholds and usage rates changed, with 1500 kWh costing us $375 before the change and $357 going forward
- pay-ontime/online discount on usage charges increased from 16% to 18% for an extra $4 off
Net change for 1500 kWh = $19 less per quarter
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For what it's worth, the traditional model of electricity retailing is to collect a token daily charge, then subsidise the rest of the fixed network costs via higher consumption charges.
It doesn't cost anywhere near 25 cents / kWh to supply electricity if the connection is already there, it's more like 15 cents / kWh. But then there's no way it costs $1 per day to keep the connection in place, it's around twice that amount.
The traditional model works so long as (1) consumers have no option other than to use roughly similar amounts of electricity (2) consumption per customer is increasing such that prices fall in "real" terms and (3) there is no practical means of supply other than the grid.
All three of those keys are now failing and as such the model of high consumption rates subsidising network costs isn't really sustainable. Here comes higher fixed costs and lower consumption charges.
I'll make a very long term prediction and say that at some future time, the only source of commercially available energy that the average consumer will purchase will be electricity. No gas and definitely no petrol. That day is coming, the only question is when, but it does necessitate that the electricity grid will still be here. Running everything on solar + batteries is problematic, and likely always will be, when that "everything" includes cars and heating in the middle of winter. The grid may well disappear in the tropics or in the middle of nowhere, but it's here to stay in Melbourne, Hobart, Canberra etc in my view.
It doesn't cost anywhere near 25 cents / kWh to supply electricity if the connection is already there, it's more like 15 cents / kWh. But then there's no way it costs $1 per day to keep the connection in place, it's around twice that amount.
The traditional model works so long as (1) consumers have no option other than to use roughly similar amounts of electricity (2) consumption per customer is increasing such that prices fall in "real" terms and (3) there is no practical means of supply other than the grid.
All three of those keys are now failing and as such the model of high consumption rates subsidising network costs isn't really sustainable. Here comes higher fixed costs and lower consumption charges.
I'll make a very long term prediction and say that at some future time, the only source of commercially available energy that the average consumer will purchase will be electricity. No gas and definitely no petrol. That day is coming, the only question is when, but it does necessitate that the electricity grid will still be here. Running everything on solar + batteries is problematic, and likely always will be, when that "everything" includes cars and heating in the middle of winter. The grid may well disappear in the tropics or in the middle of nowhere, but it's here to stay in Melbourne, Hobart, Canberra etc in my view.
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Have a look at my supply charge
Once off-grid comes in, l'm cutting chops with the electricity companies. I think they know this will happen with a lot of people, "milk 'em while you can" comes to mind...
Once off-grid comes in, l'm cutting chops with the electricity companies. I think they know this will happen with a lot of people, "milk 'em while you can" comes to mind...
Yeh, I looked at your invoice on the other thread. It's unfortunate that the supply charge affects you as much as it does, DB.
Smurf, thanks for the explanation which makes a lot of sense. Our house is an early example of what you're talking about. We have gas hot water which I think we'll replace, because 1) we also pay a daily supply charge for the gas, and 2) solar hot water with electric backup looks like a better option. With the shift from usage charges to supply charge, the incentive to get everything on electric goes up, even though our gas price has gone down more than our electricity rates. Now we just have to wait for the gas HWS to wear out!
I'll add a prediction to yours - possibly very near term. As the number of gas customers dwindle, providers will need higher supply charges. The government will do what it can to dictate lower gas supply charges in the same way it did for the price Telstra charges for its copper network.
Smurf, thanks for the explanation which makes a lot of sense. Our house is an early example of what you're talking about. We have gas hot water which I think we'll replace, because 1) we also pay a daily supply charge for the gas, and 2) solar hot water with electric backup looks like a better option. With the shift from usage charges to supply charge, the incentive to get everything on electric goes up, even though our gas price has gone down more than our electricity rates. Now we just have to wait for the gas HWS to wear out!
I'll add a prediction to yours - possibly very near term. As the number of gas customers dwindle, providers will need higher supply charges. The government will do what it can to dictate lower gas supply charges in the same way it did for the price Telstra charges for its copper network.
