Do you have solar panels?

[DB008]

As I've said before, as soon as it becomes feasible to go off-grid, l will.

Charged up over 'sun tax'​

A sun-fuelled stoush between Member for Morwell Russell Northe and the Victorian Greens leader on social media has sparked a wider debate over higher tariffs paid by home owners supplying solar power to the grid.

The debate has centred on the domestic distribution prices of energy retailer Simply Energy, an arm of Hazelwood owner-operator GDZ SUEZ, which has set the daily supply charge for homes with solar panels at 110.2 cents, about 14 cents more than non-solar customers, or $51 extra per year.

The tariff difference was detailed in a government gazette, shared on Twitter on Monday morning by Greens senator Greg Barber, who has slammed the supply charge difference as unjustified.

"One power company wants to charge you 14c per day extra if you have solar on your roof. A tax on the sun?" Mr Barber tweeted.

The tweet drew a response from Victoria's Energy and Mining Minister, Mr Northe, who was quick to defend the tariff difference.

"You don't get to feed your power into the grid for free or have it overly subsidised by the rest of us," Mr Northe tweeted back.

"Solar power is great, but it costs money to send it around the grid."

Mr Northe's spokesperson later told the The Express it was becoming standard practice for some retailers to charge more for solar homes due to the extra supply associated costs.

However the spokesperson said only some retailers individually itemised the higher solar tariff, while others absorbed the cost into overall supply charges.

http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/2422185/charged-up-over-sun-tax/​

 

[drsmith]

Off grid if it becomes mainstream won't be a way off the mains electricity service charge hook and I note mains water service charges as an example.

That's unless it can replace the grid altogether.

 

[sptrawler]

Off grid if it becomes mainstream won't be a way off the mains electricity service charge hook and I note mains water service charges as an example.

That's unless it can replace the grid altogether.

I think we are a long way, from that scenario, doc.

By the way, off topic, you were right the Roe hwy/ Kwinana fwy intersction looks like a winner, my apologies for the scepticism.

 

[drsmith]

I think we are a long way, from that scenario, doc.

I think we are too but the point was where an essential service such as electricity, water or sewerage runs on the street pass the property, there will be a service charge. There can be a small amount of leakage with electricity with early adoption of new technologies but that should really only be considered as a bonus.

By the way, off topic, you were right the Roe hwy/ Kwinana fwy intersction looks like a winner, my apologies for the scepticism.

I thought you'd be impressed although my understanding is that only the new 2 lanes south from Roe Highway are presently open while the existing 2 lanes are resurfaced.

There's quiet a bit of work coming up for the Kwinana Freeway. The southbound widening project will be extended from Armadale Road to Russell Road in a project to widen that section from 2 to 3 lanes commencing later this year.

Northbound from Russell Road to Roe Highway is also likely to be widened from 2 to 3 lanes in the near future, probably in conjunction with Roe 8. Not announced as a project at this stage as yet though but it's one to watch.

Another one to watch is conversion of the emergency stopping lanes to traffic lanes between Judd Street and the Canning Highway under the managed motorway concept.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/28876411/moves-to-open-stop-lanes/

Then there's Roe 8 and the associated interchange with the Kwinana Freeway. That's quiet a beast.

http://www.southmetroconnect.com.au/wp-content/uploads/60100953-215J-CI-DRG-0027-RevB.pdf

Back to the topic at hand, my 1.52kW system passed 10,000 kWh this month, just over 4 years after install.

 

[pixel]

my 1.52kW system passed 10,000 kWh this month, just over 4 years after install.

well done, Doc
Since upgrading to 2KW in March 2011, we've recently crossed the 14 MWh line.
And after the recent Synergy bill, I've calculated that 60,1% of our initial CapEx plus service cost has meanwhile been repaid. That brings us slightly ahead of the initial guesstimate of an 8-year payback period.

 

[Smurf1976]

Just over 27 MWh generated so far, recovering about 65% of the $ spent on the system between 2009 and 2013 in various stages.

The heat pump water heater, installed in 2009, has now recovered its full additional cost (over and above that of an electric HWS that I'd have otherwise had to buy). So it's all profit from here on as long as it keeps working.

 

[DB008]

Welcome to the Club

Our 2kW system is averaging 8.9 kWh per day over the last 4 years. (Orientation N-E isn't ideal.)

Hi Pixel,

Came home today and gave the SMA a 'knock' (that's how they work for the menu).

Anyways, produced 32kw/h today. Not bad.

​

I think l might get higher in summer with more daylight hours.

 

[Smurf1976]

Like anything electrical (especially in Tas....) it has become political but the transmission and distribution company (same entity for both) here is proposing radical tariff reform for small customers.

They don't have firm details in terms of actual prices, but the broad concept seems to be:

1. End the present differences in charging based on usage, which is large in the case of the uniquely Tasmanian situation of separately metering heating loads. At the retail level, Tariff 31 (general power) for households costs 25.2 cents per kWh versus 15.197 cents / kWh for heating on Tariff 41 / 42. Tas Networks (transmission and distribution) wants to abolish Tariff 41 / 42 (which are the same rate in practice) and set a new price that's part way between the two rates. So all consumption, regardless of purpose, goes on the same meter versus two meters for 24/7 supply at present.

2. Move toward pricing based on contribution to peak demand. There aren't firm details, it's still at the debate and negotiation stage, but this could go as far as an actual demand charge for households being applied during certain times of the day (peak). In return, energy prices for consumption would be reduced.

The above would likely spark renewed interest in off-peak supply which in Tas is presently a very minor thing (about 3% of total residential consumption and the vast majority of homes don't have any off-peak meter installed). At present, close to 90% of Tas homes use peak rate hot water systems - a situation that's virtually unheard of anywhere else in Australia (with a few exceptions).

It would also remove the situation where a home can, at the same time, be exporting power and receiving the FIT whilst buying it back (at almost 3 times the price) on Tariff 41 / 42 to run water heating or space heating.

Whether or not it goes ahead will come down to politics I suspect, but there's a proposal nonetheless and considerable effort being expended on it at this stage. It is proposed to commence fully in 2019 but with Tariff 41 being closed to new customers as early as 2016.

Winners = those with low or no consumption on T41. That is those who actually do use off-peak for hot water or who have gas, solar etc.

Losers = those with a larger than average proportion of consumption on T41. Eg electric space heating and hot water plus relatively low consumption on the general tariff (T31) due to (for example) gas cooking and solar panels.

If it achieves the objective of increasing off-peak load and decreasing peak load then that also benefits any future expansion of intermittent renewable generation, particularly wind.

Tariffs at present (retail prices by Aurora Energy, the only retailer currently supplying residential customers in Tas) are:

T31 (general light & power) = 25.2 cents
T41 / 42 (space heating and continuous hot water (24/7 supply)) = 15.197 cents / kWh
T61 (off-peak with afternoon boost period) = 12.235 cents / kWh
T62 (off-peak night only) = 11.524 cents / kWh

At present, due to the cheapness of T41/42, consumption on the off-peak tariffs is relatively low and virtually unheard of for new installations in the past 25 years. And of those who do use off-peak, the vast majority are on T61 due to the minimal difference between that and T62 and also because most of them are old installations and T62 didn't exist at all until the early 1990's.

There's possibly a major public education effort required in all of this since:

A - a large share of the population doesn't seem aware that it's even possible to run hot water on off-peak and have literally never heard of the concept. To the extent that off-peak is used in Tas, it is generally associated with space heating rather than hot water. It's going to take quite an effort to convince the masses that the water won't go cold at 7am each morning when the power is turned off and that such systems are legitimate and not in some way "dodgy".

B - a very widespread, almost universal, but incorrect belief that off-peak has or is being phased out, is illegal, or at best is not available for new installations. That belief is so widespread that even many electricians believe it to be the case. I'd say that the majority of electricians in Tas aged under about 40 have literally never installed an off-peak supply, that's how rare it is for new installations.

Interesting times ahead it seems.

 

[pixel]

I think l might get higher in summer with more daylight hours.

Of course you will.
In December, the daily rate in Perth is well above 6KWh/KW installed (12.7 ~ 12.9 for our 2KW system)
June/July not only have shorter daylight here in Perth, but it's often overcast and rainy. That brought our average daily production rate down to less than 3KWh/KW installed (5.6 for 2).

You're not that much further North than we are, so you'll probably get similar increases - unless the day you read those 32.00 was exceptionally sunny and cloud-free. In my spreadsheet, I enter readings roughly every 2 weeks, then whittle the numbers down to daily averages.

During the Winter months, we're hit with a double whammy insofar as we produce less, but have the RC aircon heating for long hours. In Summer, we don't need anywhere near as much power for cooling, and we export most of our solar output into the grid and collect FIT credits.

 

[pixel]

Solar Citizens, http://www.solarcitizens.org.au/ presented Malcolm Turnball with this award:

It turns out the PM’s own electorate of Wentworth is second last in the whole country when it comes to the number of solar rooftops. We reckon he can do a lot better, both in Wentworth and Australia-wide. And his constituents agree.

In fact, recent polling we commissioned tells us that 63.5% of people in Wentworth would be more likely to vote for a party with a policy to gradually transition Australia away from coal-fired power to 100% renewable power by 2030.*

 

[drsmith]

For a group that claims not to support any one political party, that's awfully political.

 

[Craton]

I've received a letter from the Dept. of Industry - Resources and Energy notifying me that as a participate of the NSW Solar Bonus Scheme, the Scheme will end on the 31st Dec 2016 meaning I will no longer receive the subsidised feed-in tariff after that date.

I've been advised that a minimum feed-in rate will be paid for the electricity my panels generate after that date and am aware that my provider will be sending me out some info soon regarding the changes. From what I've read I gather that I'd need to change from a "gross" to a "net" meter to reduce my billing costs.

I realise that there is still some time to go plus I don't have all the facts but just wondering if the collective can help in advising which provider pays the best prices and any gotchas I should be aware of, especially after the 31st Dec?

TIA.

 

[orr]

I've received a letter from the Dept. of Industry - Resources and Energy notifying me that as a participate of the NSW Solar Bonus Scheme, the Scheme will end on the 31st Dec 2016 meaning I will no longer receive the subsidised feed-in tariff after that date.

I've been advised that a minimum feed-in rate will be paid for the electricity my panels generate after that date and am aware that my provider will be sending me out some info soon regarding the changes. From what I've read I gather that I'd need to change from a "gross" to a "net" meter to reduce my billing costs.

I realise that there is still some time to go plus I don't have all the facts but just wondering if the collective can help in advising which provider pays the best prices and any gotchas I should be aware of, especially after the 31st Dec?

TIA.

Use what you can on site... Obviously I don't know your installation circumstances but heating water with a heat pump hot water system is a much cheaper storage solution than any battery set up.... or make ice and sell to passers by?
My feed in nets me 0.04c/kwh ... Use it or lose it.

 

[CanOz]

Use what you can on site... Obviously I don't know your installation circumstances but heating water with a heat pump hot water system is a much cheaper storage solution than any battery set up.... or make ice and sell to passers by?
My feed in nets me 0.04c/kwh ... Use it or lose it.

That ice idea is very clever....

I don't even know where to start on researching solar. I know we will go off grid as soon as we buy our house. We've got another year to look for a place, but we are definitely going full solar. To not encourage that should be a criminal offence in a country like Australia.

Is anyone here fully solar off grid with A/C running, all appliances etc., on a new lithium battery setup?

 

[bellenuit]

I know we will go off grid as soon as we buy our house.

I was reading an article a few weeks ago, I'm not sure of it was posted here, that said with the dropping cost of solar batteries, rather than loosing customers who go off grid, suppliers might encourage them to stay by buying electricity from them straight from their batteries at nighttime or when sun generation is low.

A significant number of households going off grid would only make fixed costs for those remaining prohibitively expensive. However, if households with solar panels can generate and store in their batteries enough power to not only cover their own daily night and day usage, but a little bit more, then the providers could buy the excess from them at a cost greater than the fixed costs of staying on the grid. If there are enough consumers with sufficient storage capacity to cover their own usage and also supply providers with power direct from their batteries (this is in addition to power fed back to the grid directly from the panels during sun generating times) then these batteries become a virtual power station for the electricity suppliers. If reliable, it might obviate the need for additional power generation infrastructure as well as allow them to spread their fixed transmission costs over a wider group than otherwise.

 

[CanOz]

I was reading an article a few weeks ago, I'm not sure of it was posted here, that said with the dropping cost of solar batteries, rather than loosing customers who go off grid, suppliers might encourage them to stay by buying electricity from them straight from their batteries at nighttime or when sun generation is low.

A significant number of households going off grid would only make fixed costs for those remaining prohibitively expensive. However, if households with solar panels can generate and store in their batteries enough power to not only cover their own daily night and day usage, but a little bit more, then the providers could buy the excess from them at a cost greater than the fixed costs of staying on the grid. If there are enough consumers with sufficient storage capacity to cover their own usage and also supply providers with power direct from their batteries (this is in addition to power fed back to the grid directly from the panels during sun generating times) then these batteries become a virtual power station for the electricity suppliers. If reliable, it might obviate the need for additional power generation infrastructure as well as allow them to spread their fixed transmission costs over a wider group than otherwise.

Thanks Bellenuit, that was the plan that Elon (Musk) had in mind i think...

 

[Smurf1976]

From what I've read I gather that I'd need to change from a "gross" to a "net" meter to reduce my billing costs.

I realise that there is still some time to go plus I don't have all the facts but just wondering if the collective can help in advising which provider pays the best prices and any gotchas I should be aware of, especially after the 31st Dec?

Gross meter = all your solar goes into the grid (in an administrative sense) and is paid at whatever FIT rate you receive. All power you use within the house is then drawn from the grid (in an administrative sense) and charged at the (higher) price for grid power.

Net meter = your solar is connected to the load side of the meter so the meter only "sees" the net flow into or out of your home to the grid. So if you are generating 3kW and using 2kW yourself, then the meter sees that as 1kW going into the grid and that's what it records (it has no idea how much is actually being generated and used, just what the net flow is). So if your FIT is lower than what you are paying for power this will result in lower bills.

Note that net metering is on an instantaneous basis and is not based on accumulation over time. So if you generate 3kW right now and use 2kW then you receive the FIT for the 1kW going into the grid. If you then turn the oven on and the sun stops shining, so that you are now generating 1kW and using 4kW, the 3kW being drawn from the grid will be charged at the applicable rate. The power you previously exported is not "banked" or stored - you sold it and were paid at the FIT rate, now you're buying and will be charged at the appropriate (higher) price. It's all done on an instantaneous real time basis with nothing "banked" or "stored".

So if you want to remain on grid and minimise your bills then the standard answer is to shift your power use to when the sun is shining. So instead of running the dishwasher at 10pm and paying for power from the grid, you run it at noon and use your own power that would otherwise be exported at the FIT rate.

One way to maximise use of your own power, if you have electric storage (with a tank) hot water is a device such as the Immersun or Optimmersion. This is an electronic device that monitors power flow into / out of your house and adjusts (in a constantly variable manner - like an audio volume control but fully automatic) how much power goes into the water heater. So if you are producing 2kW from solar and using 1.2 kW for your appliances at that time, then the Immersun sends the other 0.8 kW into the hot water (up to the point where the tank is fully heated and the thermostat switches it off, after which any surplus power is exported to the grid in the normal manner).

If you've already got solar panels and electric hot water then in practice this device turns your existing water heater into a solar one, albeit an electrically powered solar heater but it's still making use of the power you generate yourself so as to minimise both import and export to the grid. So you use the power that's worth 5 cents / kWh (FIT) instead of paying whatever rate to buy power from the grid and heat water with it. The device is able to incorporate a "fully heat the tank using grid power overnight if it wasn't fully heated once the sun went down" function so that you'll still have hot water even if there's heavy cloud all day or you have the air-con running and using all your solar production.

To use the Immersun all you need is an existing solar power system and an electric water heater of sufficient capacity to provide hot water with once per day heating (same as normal off-peak except for the different time of heating it).

Note that this works with conventional electric systems only and cannot be used with heat pumps.

Any electrician could install it, but you'd be wise to find a good one since most will have no prior experience with this as it's a relatively new product that doesn't (yet) have a lot of market penetration.

Retailers - no comment there since I could reasonably be considered as biased toward Momentum (100% owned by Hydro Tas). http://www.momentumenergy.com.au/

I'll add a comment though that despite the rather large problems Hydro has at the moment, Momentum customers in the mainland states won't be facing power shortages or having their lights go out. So long as Hydro can't generate that power (and has no means of getting it across Bass Strait with the broken cable), supply is simply being purchased from the market (ie rival generation businesses) with Momentum acting purely as a retailer. So it's business as usual so far as Momentum and its customers in NSW, Vic and SA are concerned.

Big thing to look out for with any retailer is "discounts" and other complex pricing arrangements intended to confuse rather than inform. Just because you're supposedly getting a 30% discount from a retailer doesn't mean you're necessarily paying a lower price than with another retailer that offers no discount at all. Getting 30% off isn't a good deal if their prices were double what others were charging to start with. So you need to look at the actual prices and ignore the "discount" scam.

Time of use pricing, where it's an option, is another potential trap. Some will win, some will lose, and it all depends on how much you use and when. My personal opinion is that you've best to avoid it where possible unless you're very sure you'll actually save money due to most of your use being at the cheaper times.

 

[Smurf1976]

I was reading an article a few weeks ago, I'm not sure of it was posted here, that said with the dropping cost of solar batteries, rather than loosing customers who go off grid, suppliers might encourage them to stay by buying electricity from them straight from their batteries at nighttime or when sun generation is low.

This idea is about to be given a go on Bruny Island (Tas) as a means of addressing a local peak supply constraint.

Most electricity on the island is from the Tas grid via underwater cables, but during the peak tourist season demand at times exceeds capacity of the cables and this is presently addressed via running a diesel generator on the island.

The idea is to have users install batteries and to dispatch that power into the grid at the times when demand peaks, thus removing the need for the diesel generator (or alternatively upgrading the cables which would cost $$$).

It hasn't happened yet but it's about to be pursued. http://www.tasnetworks.com.au/TasNetworks/WebParts/TasNetworks/Media/DownloadMedia.ashx?d=300&m=v

 

[poverty]

The best thing about solar panels is the electricity companies have to pay the owners of the panels more than the going rate for wholesale electricity, so they have to pump up everyone elses bills to compensate. It's great that Mavis in her housing commission unit has to pay more!

 

[pixel]

Gross meter = all your solar goes into the grid (in an administrative sense) and is paid at whatever FIT rate you receive. All power you use within the house is then drawn from the grid (in an administrative sense) and charged at the (higher) price for grid power.

Net meter = your solar is connected to the load side of the meter so the meter only "sees" the net flow into or out of your home to the grid. So if you are generating 3kW and using 2kW yourself, then the meter sees that as 1kW going into the grid and that's what it records (it has no idea how much is actually being generated and used, just what the net flow is). So if your FIT is lower than what you are paying for power this will result in lower bills.

Note that net metering is on an instantaneous basis and is not based on accumulation over time. So if you generate 3kW right now and use 2kW then you receive the FIT for the 1kW going into the grid. If you then turn the oven on and the sun stops shining, so that you are now generating 1kW and using 4kW, the 3kW being drawn from the grid will be charged at the applicable rate. The power you previously exported is not "banked" or stored - you sold it and were paid at the FIT rate, now you're buying and will be charged at the appropriate (higher) price. It's all done on an instantaneous real time basis with nothing "banked" or "stored".

So if you want to remain on grid and minimise your bills then the standard answer is to shift your power use to when the sun is shining. So instead of running the dishwasher at 10pm and paying for power from the grid, you run it at noon and use your own power that would otherwise be exported at the FIT rate.

The ratio FIT to Retail charge is the crucial point, Smurf.
The early adopters among us, who locked in a FIT boost in compensation for the high initial price for SPV systems, will adopt the opposite strategy: Use as little power as possible during the day, and run appliances like dishwasher and clothes dryer after Sundown - if you have to at all. There is never a substitute for a general attitude towards power-saving. Once the FIT boost runs out - as WA's 40c increase does in 2020 - we'll be back to the way you described. However, until then, every additional KWh I can sell during the day becomes a credit of 48c, while the same KWh used at night costs me about half that amount.
If it weren't for those 40c, I would be worse off if I shifted usage from sunlight hours to night time because my system's daylight production would only pay 8c per KWh and cost 25c after sundown.

Long-term, it will therefore support the case for larger SPV capacity, but making sure you use the entire production and store all excess into batteries, laid out to a capacity that is sufficient for several nights of draw-down.