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But would like to note the growth figures (400m people) are not based on population growth they are based on numbers forecast to move to cities to join the developed world.
People who will move from a subsistance lifestyle to buying a TV and Air Conditioner for an apartment.
20 million per annum have been making the shift in China alone, in recent years. Increasing their copper consumption at multiple of before.
Here is an interesting article that goes a little way to backing some of my claims concerning investors being short and consumers being long, as well as the broad US based disbelief in the cycle and the removal of the backwardisation in the copper market
You are forgiven.ducati916 said:rederob
The economic theory that I relate, is hardly obscure, I am only utilizing basic supply/demand theory & introducing the Law of Diminishing Returns, which explains the rationale for falling prices.
That you posts contain a vacuum of information, but a plethora of opinion somehow suggests a verisimilitude to the topic under discussion; however, we have been down this road before with your bullish stance on gold.
So forgive me that I shall just dismiss your opinion, as just so much nonsense.
jog on
d998
I don't know dood. All the town planning stuff I've done seems to say otherwise. I am dead set against you here. Your opinions seem to fly in the face of all the data that I have.ducati916 said:BSD
Noted.
However, there resides in this analysis a rather dangerous assumption.
This is, that the transition from subsistance to the consumption that you assume
This does not just happen, overnight, or otherwise.
Jobs that pay enough to raise consumption to those levels is required.
This is a function of wealth, measured by PPP
So, the figures while on the surface are impressive, under the figures, the PPP tells a rather different story, one of still great poverty, building wealth takes time.
Therefore, although there is a case for commodities, the current climate suggests caution rather than outright plunging.
jog on
d998
I don't know dood. All the town planning stuff I've done seems to say otherwise. I am dead set against you here. Your opinions seem to fly in the face of all the data that I have.
Irrespective of GDP and overall demand, rapid industrialisation creates huge demand pressures on resources. An already industrialised nation like the US will have a relatively low impact on prices, because either way in demand, it is mostly steady in comparison to one that is becoming rapidly modernised.ducati916 said:And the data is.................?
Town planning. Go on, knock me out.
jog on
d998
Irrespective of GDP and overall demand, rapid industrialisation creates huge demand pressures on resources.
An already industrialised nation like the US will have a relatively low impact on prices, because either way in demand, it is mostly steady in comparison to one that is becoming rapidly modernised.
Take testosterone levels in males. One can have a huge amount of testosterone, but if the levels are steady, then testosterone linked behaviours are limited. Compared to someone who has them swinging all over the place.
The point is, it is not about overall demand, it is about the rate of movement within the demand. Already industrialised nations have relatively low swings, developing nations do not.
China aims to have 50% of all the world's manufacturing capacity by 2020, or 2030, I forget, but regardless, this is going to create massive demand shifts on resources.
Wonderful straw-man arguments you keep pulling out in this thread. You keep doing that.ducati916 said:chops
So where is the data that supports the gaggle of opinion that suddenly appeared?
The short answer, is that you have none, you have read some experts commentary, and adopted it as fact. So be it. I shall comment on your opinion.
Incorrect.
If my quantity demanded is backed by $1M
And your quantity demanded is backed by $100
The resultant Demand/Supply curves will look very different.
Therefore the size of GDP is very relevant.
If Madagasca decided to go industrial, how much impact would it have?
I accept that China is large, and growing its GDP, but, China is not yet large enough that it can invalidate demand dynamics of the US & EU.
Nonsense.
Back to economics 101 for you.
Firstly, testosterone is subject to a physiological negative feedback loop.
Therefore, only in pathological states, will concentration levels fluctuate, possibly effecting emotional fluctuations.
Supply/Demand dynamics follow very similar negative/positive feedback loops.
Are you suggesting that there is a pathology present in the global markets currently effecting a breakdown, or suspension of these basic economic laws?
No, it is about overall demand.
How that overall demand interacts with overall supply at the various price levels. Developed nations are not static. The Law of Entropy.
Aiming & Achieving, two different concepts.
The figures [already posted] suggest that this is far from a given.
jog on
d998
Kauri said:Wonderfull intellectual argy bargy but, in short, what conclusions can we in Economics 001 draw from it in relation to the threads subject.. "Commodities tipped to collapse"...
Who would? Had a look at the ZFX share price in the last two days?ducati916 said:If however you feel the Bear case has some validity, you will decrease, avoid, or accrue short postions to commodities.
chops_a_must said:Who would? Had a look at the ZFX share price in the last two days?
Ahhh, it's going up.ducati916 said:Here is the chart of ZFX.
You can talk me through your analysis if you choose and I presume the case for the Bulls.
chops_a_must said:Ahhh, it's going up.
But seriously, it's just following the zinc price. A weeks worth of losses recovered in two days. Zinc inventories running low, with no viable alternative leads to the price of zinc going up.
I don't think this is a case of bulls, it's just a case of market reality.
The more important reason however resides in the fact that the negative correlation with Equities & Bonds has turned positive.
Commodities in the "90's were pretty neglected by retail investors.
Now they are the hot topic and mainstream via numerous funds.
Well, why hasn't the price fallen already? Why has corn skyrocketed despite the downturn for instance?ducati916 said:The US is huge.
If the US goes into a slowdown [which currently is the case] or into a recession, the demand for commodities will fall.
There will be excess supply.
Price will fall.
ducati916 said:Well I would have thought quite obvious.
If you reject my arguments as irrelevant etc, you will no doubt feel that the bulls are correct, and thus accrue, maintain, or increase exposure to commodities via Futures, Options, Funds, or Equities.
If however you feel the Bear case has some validity, you will decrease, avoid, or accrue short postions to commodities.
Failing either of those options, you may simply wish to partake of the discussion via an analysis and interpretation of the data............... or just vent your opinion.
There is something for everyone.
jog on
d998
chops_a_must said:Well, why hasn't the price fallen already? Why has corn skyrocketed despite the downturn for instance?
Failing any of those options, I simply do not have an opinion. If you read/quote opinions of enough experts you will find compelling reasons that validate almost any future scenario you may come up with. Eventually (time frame??) someone is going to be right, but is being right really so important, apart from bragging rights?
If you look back through the last couple of weeks postings on the Gold thread you will see several bearish calls, yet I posted a live gold trade that returned 2.5R on the long side. Must have been lucky. Gold has lifted about 5% since then and now the calls are bullish!! I still have no opinion on the direction of gold, but am watching for what I would consider a trade, I'm not concerned if it is a long or short, so long as I consider that the odds (not probability ) are with me.
Who put their overalls in Mrs Murphys chowder?
Well, if many commodities are off their highs, logically, some are setting new ones. It cannot be any other way. What should that tell you?ducati916 said:You will note that many commodities are off their highs.
What should that tell you?
jog on
d998
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