China: As it is

[wayneL]

”what people want"

I think I would equivocate about "what I want", if faced with the prospect of a gulag if I gave the wrong answer.

This is clearly what we see with the opinions of the mainland Chinese.

I have a small number of mainland Chinese expats as clients. All are extremely careful at first about what they say to me, but once they learnt that they can trust be too not develop with they say to me in private to anyone else, their opinion is often quite markedly different.

In fact this is happening in Western society to a currently lesser extent, with people self censoring to avoid social and financial consequences of having an unfashionable view.

 

[sptrawler]

Im not leaning one way or the other, but it isnt unusual to have an independent state co habitating with what is considered the mother country, Gibralta comes to mind.
Spain has wanted to claim it for a long time, occassionally they have tried to take it.
Recently they had a referendum, as to staying with U.K or returning to Spain, it was a overwhelming vote to stay.
The Falklands was similar.

 

[rederob]

What about what the people of Taiwan want? You seem to overlook that.

I don't know what they want. But under SAR arrangements nothing needs to change.

I cannot speak to the truth or otherwise of your personal anecdote, other than to note that you were associating with Chinese criminals who were knowingly violating Chinese law. Perhaps a tiny subsection of Chinese criminals isn't an accurate representation of the Chinese population as a whole?

VPNs can be applied for so police don't randomly ask people on the street to check what they are browsing or how. Your point was petty.

Having complete control over the information consumed by your citizens isn't "putting a spin on what [the CCP] want aired". It's censorship of a most extreme kind.

I suggest you watch CGTN. You will see exactly what I mean. Their news channels cover a broader range of issues than our ABC.

This is not a replacement for a free and open and independent media.

CGTN has regular panel interviews with global subject experts which you can see don't pull any punches.

Then I will have to do some further reading on the topic. In the meantime, perhaps you could respond to Human Rights Watch's 2021 report on China's Human Rights abuses.

I will if you show me the evidence of what they purport.
For example, the very first paragraph about covid contains falsehoods that I have covered extensively in responding to the issue in threads at ASF.
What I do not deny is what Chinese laws allow in terms of harshness and penalties, but their laws are not unique. Like any country foreigners visit, you learn what you should not do there that you might ordinarily do at home, like drink alcohol or say things about the government or its leader.
I found the whole report lacking in detail about what China did/does and why.

 

[greggles]

I don't know what they want. But under SAR arrangements nothing needs to change.

Some basic research would have told you.

VPNs can be applied for so police don't randomly ask people on the street to check what they are browsing or how. Your point was petty.

Internet censorship in China is getting worse, and laws regarding VPNs are being tightened further. Tight control of the information flow coming into a country is critical to the ability of tyrannical regimes to effectively control the narrative. Witness what is occurring is Russia right now.

I suggest you watch CGTN. You will see exactly what I mean. Their news channels cover a broader range of issues than our ABC.

CGTN has regular panel interviews with global subject experts which you can see don't pull any punches.

I'll take a look but I doubt you can show me something from CGTN that doesn't pull any punches regarding China's human right abuses or political repression in Hong Kong.

CGTN (formerly known as CCTV-9 and CCTV News) is an international English-language Chinese state-run cable TV news service based in Beijing, China. It is one of six channels provided by China Global Television Network, owned by the Chinese state media China Central Television (CCTV), under the control of the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party.

It is clearly the Chinese version of Russia Today (rt.com) and is a state owned propaganda mouthpiece aimed at influencing international audiences rather than Chinese ones. Again, it is not a replacement for a free, open and independent media.

I will if you show me the evidence of what they purport.
For example, the very first paragraph about covid contains falsehoods that I have covered extensively in responding to the issue in threads at ASF.
What I do not deny is what Chinese laws allow in terms of harshness and penalties, but their laws are not unique. Like any country foreigners visit, you learn what you should not do there that you might ordinarily do at home, like drink alcohol or say things about the government or its leader.
I found the whole report lacking in detail about what China did/does and why.

Here is Amnesty International's 2020 report on China. If you can't even face China's appalling human rights record, then I would say we are at an impasse. Don't be a denialist out of slavish loyalty to the CCP.

 

[rederob]

Im not leaning one way or the other, but it isnt unusual to have an independent state co habitating with what is considered the mother country, Gibralta comes to mind.
Spain has wanted to claim it for a long time, occassionally they have tried to take it.
Recently they had a referendum, as to staying with U.K or returning to Spain, it was a overwhelming vote to stay.
The Falklands was similar.

Scots are not English nor Welsh, but they are British.
Similarly, nothing prevents Taiwanese being Chinese.
China accommodates more ethnic groups than any other nation, although as many as can would like to identify as Han.
What constitutes a sovereign nation or "state" was rather fluid until there was international consensus via the United nations and guided by the Montevideo Convention checklist.
Taiwan has failed the fourth item of Article 1.

 

[sptrawler]

Scots are not English nor Welsh, but they are British.
.

The Scots, Welsh and people from Northern Ireland chose to be British and contribute to and have access to the British taxation and welfare system.
From what I have read Taiwan don't chose to, similar to if Scotland withdraws from the U.K as they constantly threaten to do, they would no longer contribute or have access to the U.K tax and welfare system.
Whether China reclaiming Taiwan would be better for Taiwan who knows, those in Hong Kong don't seem overenamoured with the outcome.
like I said Gibraltar have been annexed from Spain for 300 or so years, the citizens don't want to be re united with Spain and that decision is being honoured.
Yet strategically Gibraltar is actually attached to Spain, whereas Taiwan is a completely seperate land mass, what comes after Taiwan? Okinawa

 

[rederob]

Some basic research would have told you.

View attachment 138832

Internet censorship in China is getting worse, and laws regarding VPNs are being tightened further. Tight control of the information flow coming into a country is critical to the ability of tyrannical regimes to effectively control the narrative. Witness what is occurring is Russia right now.

I'll take a look but I doubt you can show me something from CGTN that doesn't pull any punches regarding China's human right abuses or political repression in Hong Kong.

It is clearly the Chinese version of Russia Today (rt.com) and is a state owned propaganda mouthpiece aimed at influencing international audiences rather than Chinese ones. Again, it is not a replacement for a free, open and independent media.

Here is Amnesty International's 2020 report on China. If you can't even face China's appalling human rights record, then I would say we are at an impasse. Don't be a denialist out of slavish loyalty to the CCP.

First, there is no consensus within Taiwan and even if there were, international law maintains that China holds sovereignty. You might not like that idea, but nor do many groups who are in similar situations, like the Kurds or Catalan.

I have no intention of defending China's laws. Most Chinese live well under them and as posted earlier have trust in their government, much more so than Australia or America. China is excessively punitive on its critics but, again, its under their laws and most people abide.

Despite what you think, most people in China regard their government as democratically elected. It's just a different system, as is France's, America's and Russia's.

Here's one of the best uncensored YouTube videos on this topic:

 

[SirRumpole]

Scots are not English nor Welsh, but they are British.
Similarly, nothing prevents Taiwanese being Chinese.
China accommodates more ethnic groups than any other nation, although as many as can would like to identify as Han.
What constitutes a sovereign nation or "state" was rather fluid until there was international consensus via the United nations and guided by the Montevideo Convention checklist.
Taiwan has failed the fourth item of Article 1.

Green light for the invasion eh rob ?

 

[rederob]

Green light for the invasion eh rob ?

Where's Mel Gibson when you need him?

 

[SirRumpole]

Where's Mel Gibson when you need him?

Whose side is he on ?

 

[rederob]

Whose side is he on ?

Taiwan's

 

[mullokintyre]

FYI.
Mick

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Golden Week:

More than 21 million people will fly during the 10-day break, which began on Friday, according to China's civil aviation regulator. That includes 14,000 domestic flights a day as young Chinese on a shoestring budget look to explore closer to home.

This Golden Week - where the annual mid-autumn festival happened to coincide with National Day celebrations - has turned into the year's longest break. It's the second Golden Week holiday this year, following a shorter break in May.

 

[Country Lad]

Interesting article on China's demographic challenges.

I posted this in the A2M thread but it probably belongs here if there is to be any comments.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

$20billion ... sitting on the side gathering dust.

‘Unluckiest high-speed railway’: Mother Nature bends human will in western China

A quake in Qinghai province and a damaged rail tunnel forced Chinese engineers and scientists to rethink how best to build high-speed railway lines.

www.scmp.com

...
and the SCMP reportage is much more circumspect.

 

[mullokintyre]

​

​

From Bloombergs

China’s Exports Drop for First Time Since 2016 as Demand Cools​

• Slowing global economy, geopolitical tensions weighed on trade
• China also faces pressure at home with deflation fears rising

China’s exports posted the first full-year decline since 2016 as global demand faltered and prices fell, hurting a major pillar of growth for the world’s second-biggest economy.
The country sold $3.38 trillion worth of goods to the rest of the world last year, a 4.6% drop from the record a year earlier. Shipments had soared during the pandemic as people stepped up purchases as they worked from home, but demand from Europe, the US and elsewhere faded as interest rates rose.
Full-year imports fell 5.5%, leaving a surplus of $823 billion for the year.

Dropping From A Record​

China's exports and imports declined last year
Source: China's General Administration of Customs
China is facing pressure on trade, with weakness in many of its trading partner economies and geopolitical tensions making a reprieve unlikely soon. At home, its property sector remains imperiled and deflation fears are mounting, leading economists to call for more policy support from the government.

Read more: China’s Consumer Prices in Longest Streak of Declines Since 2009
The sustained deflation is dragging down the value of Chinese exports and making them cheaper for foreign consumers. The index of export prices in October hit the lowest in data going back to 2006.
For the month of December, China’s exports in dollar terms rose 2.3% from a year earlier while imports expanded 0.2%, leaving a surplus of $75 billion. The rosier December data was likely helped by more favorable comparisons with a year ago, when shipments tumbled due to the effect of Covid-19 running rampant across the country.
There are some early signs of a rebound in global trade, with South Korean exports rising 5.1% in December and global sales of semiconductors returning to growth in November after falling for more than a year.
More details from China’s trade data:

• Exports to the US decreased 6.9% in December from a year ago, while shipments to the EU fell 1.9%.
• Sales to regional partners including Japan, South Korea and Southeast Asia also declined.
• Shipments to Russia remained strong in December, jumping more than 20% year-on-year.
• Imports from Australia surged almost 25% in December from a year ago as diplomatic ties improved; purchases from Canada slumped 40%.

Mick

 

[joeno]

Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with China / Chinese government. They aren't really a threat on the world stage. Ever since the great wall was built up, their main focus was "protecting what we got" rather than sailing the world and taking what belongs to others (read: Zheng He).

Right now China is in a bit of weird political place. It's a bit communist, a bit capitalist, very authoritarian. But I don't think a non-authoritarian government would work for them. Remember: China was under oppressive rule by the Qing where people had to grow pigtails and worship their Manchu overlords. This creates a somewhat delicate and fragile social fabric where people's lives are highly susceptible to fear mongering and not really compatible with democratic systems without being "shepherded".

The summation of the bad press on China is sourced from:
- The US media (largest in the world). China fits in the mold of an ideological boogeyman (though in reality, not really a threat unless forced to be). As simple as a country eating their economic cake. #1 feeling threatened by #2.
- The Indian media (perhaps 2nd largest in the world) + their ubiquitous netizen shills: similar to above. #3 wishing to supplant #2. Plus border disputes. And wanting to compete for influence within greater Asia.

In truth it's going to be difficult to find a "great power" in the world that is as pacifist as China despite all the narrative saying the opposite. They don't pose any kind of military threat and wars have never been China's strong side. The country is among the most secular in the world so there is no theological pressure exerted. Nor are they exerting great influence on their neighbors, let alone the world. They limited their own population growth so there is no plans to spread their population to other parts of the world. Their only threat is economic it seems.

 

[mullokintyre]

Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with China / Chinese government. They aren't really a threat on the world stage. Ever since the great wall was built up, their main focus was "protecting what we got" rather than sailing the world and taking what belongs to others (read: Zheng He).

Right now China is in a bit of weird political place. It's a bit communist, a bit capitalist, very authoritarian. But I don't think a non-authoritarian government would work for them. Remember: China was under oppressive rule by the Qing where people had to grow pigtails and worship their Manchu overlords

. This creates a somewhat delicate and fragile social fabric where people's lives are highly susceptible to fear mongering and not really compatible with democratic systems without being "shepherded".

That is pretty much every country . Control the media, control the population.
Fear is what has driven the rise of Trump, of Geert Wilders, georgia Melon, marinne Le pen.

The summation of the bad press on China is sourced from:
- The US media (largest in the world). China fits in the mold of an ideological boogeyman (though in reality, not really a threat unless forced to be). As simple as a country eating their economic cake. #1 feeling threatened by #2.
- The Indian media (perhaps 2nd largest in the world) + their ubiquitous netizen shills: similar to above. #3 wishing to supplant #2. Plus border disputes. And wanting to compete for influence within greater Asia.

In truth it's going to be difficult to find a "great power" in the world that is as pacifist as China despite all the narrative saying the opposite.

Pacifist China?
Tell that to the Taiwanese, the Tibetans, Macau, Hong Kong, pretty much every country that borders the Soiuth China sea India, the countries that make up Mao's five fingers of Tibet or the Uyghurs in Xinjiang..

They don't pose any kind of military threat and wars have never been China's strong side. The country is among the most secular in the world so there is no theological pressure exerted.

No theological pressure extended? tell that to the followers of the Dai lama. The CCP recognises 5 official religions, and any religious organisation has to register with the government.

Nor are they exerting great influence on their neighbors, let alone the world. They limited their own population growth so there is no plans to spread their population to other parts of the world.

Their only threat is economic it seems.

Mick

 

[joeno]

That is pretty much every country . Control the media, control the population.
Fear is what has driven the rise of Trump, of Geert Wilders, georgia Melon, marinne Le pen.

Pacifist China?
Tell that to the Taiwanese, the Tibetans, Macau, Hong Kong, pretty much every country that borders the Soiuth China sea India, the countries that make up Mao's five fingers of Tibet or the Uyghurs in Xinjiang..

No theological pressure extended? tell that to the followers of the Dai lama. The CCP recognises 5 official religions, and any religious organisation has to register with the government.



Mick

As pacifist as you're going to get from a "world power" who is not in cahoots with #1. This is the country that got Mongolia... Because Mongolia invaded and dominated China for 100 years. That got NE China (Manchuria) because... They were invaded and conquered by Manchuria and the Manchurians eventually became culturally absorbed.

Which other major country gained land through being conquered and eventually outlasting their conquerors?

you give China way too much credit (and attribute killer instinct that is not there) if you think they are commit grave acts of genocide and invading countries left and right lol.

 

[eskys]

CommSec

@CommSec
·
46m

China, purchasing managers' indexes (January 2024): Composite: 50.9 (prior: 50.3) Manufacturing: 49.2 (survey: 49.3, prior: 49) Services: 50.7 (survey: 50.6, prior: 50.4) Readings above 50 denote an expansion in activity.