China a Failed State and a Rogue State to the rest of the World

[againsthegrain]

And the plot thickens ...

Fan of neither the USA or CCP. ...
and we are in the middle of this.

Australian beef processors suspended in China trade escalation

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2...alation-as-beef-farmers-are-targeted/12237468

Only 35% of the export market.

Golly ... a pox to them BOTH ... USA and China.
Time to diversify export markets and so too supply chain for imports.

NO more USA planes that dont work either ... F35 ... at 85% on the ground ... out of service.

Its really the Chinese that miss out more, they can eat their own beef injected with water and who knows what else to look bigger and weight more ($ per kilo) but where else are the going to get aus quality food from in the region?

 

[Value Collector]

I gave one example on how "some" Chinese will try and cheat you . The melamine milk scandal is another. Sure they fix them up when they are found out, but it's usually up to the customers to quality test, not the manufacturers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/10565838

what you didn’t mention was anything about the negotiations on price about the containers.

In my experience You will be able to find a Chinese factory to manufacture to any price point / quality level you want, you want rubbish you can have it, you want top quality you can have that too.

If you send your buyer to China with the instructions to buy the cheapest shipping containers he can find, he will definitely be able to find Cheap containers.

As you screw them down on price you are telling them price is the most important thing to you, so they will lower prices accordingly and cut costs in the process, you can’t complain about quality if it was your buying agent screwing the price down.

If you are prepared to pay up for quality you will get it.

 

[satanoperca]

I tend to agree with value collector.

The Chinese produce what westerners want, which is general $$$ driven.

The issue is not whether you can find quality products out of China, you can, the real issue is send staff over the China to source high quality products when few have the technical knowledge to determine the quality to price ratio.

There easiest way I have found to find quality products, is first by price, who is charging the most, then inspect their factories and manufacturing capabilities, ask about their QA procedures and then check the product out yourself, run exhaustive testing on the products and last and the most important, make sure you have your own QA procedures to pull up any inferior product before it gets into a container.

While I have 100% respect for the manufacturers I have dealt with in the past and present, I still never trust them to deliver a consistent level of quality, but then again, I don't leave it to chance that any supplier, regardless of country of origin can do it. But my reason for being cautious, I am the boss and if the product is inferior, I pay for it.

 

[SirRumpole]

what you didn’t mention was anything about the negotiations on price about the containers.

In my experience You will be able to find a Chinese factory to manufacture to any price point / quality level you want, you want rubbish you can have it, you want top quality you can have that too.

If you send your buyer to China with the instructions to buy the cheapest shipping containers he can find, he will definitely be able to find Cheap containers.

As you screw them down on price you are telling them price is the most important thing to you, so they will lower prices accordingly and cut costs in the process, you can’t complain about quality if it was your buying agent screwing the price down.

If you are prepared to pay up for quality you will get it.

They didn't comply with agreed specifications. It's like ordering a car with air conditioning and finding it's not there because leaving it out meant more profit for the seller.

 

[againsthegrain]

I tend to agree with value collector.

The Chinese produce what westerners want, which is general $$$ driven.

The issue is not whether you can find quality products out of China, you can, the real issue is send staff over the China to source high quality products when few have the technical knowledge to determine the quality to price ratio.

There easiest way I have found to find quality products, is first by price, who is charging the most, then inspect their factories and manufacturing capabilities, ask about their QA procedures and then check the product out yourself, run exhaustive testing on the products and last and the most important, make sure you have your own QA procedures to pull up any inferior product before it gets into a container.

While I have 100% respect for the manufacturers I have dealt with in the past and present, I still never trust them to deliver a consistent level of quality, but then again, I don't leave it to chance that any supplier, regardless of country of origin can do it. But my reason for being cautious, I am the boss and if the product is inferior, I pay for it.

I used to buy lcd screen panels from china, not big quantity at a time maybye 5-10. Having been screwed quiet a few times beforehand, dead pixels or other physical defects (obviously they were factory seconds or failed qualty test)

I went around to new suppliers specifically asking and telling them I am happy to pay full price, no bargaining as long as there is no defects as mentioned above then we can proceed.

I got a instant reply yes yes good quality etc

Received the panels and they were worse then previous batch from different distributor, clusters of bad pixels.

When I asked them this is not what we agreed on.... the reply I got was totally ignoring my issue but telling me for big quantity customer 100+ we offer A+++ quality not A+ which apparently I got.

No sorry, no offer to fix the problem.

This is basically how business is done in China.

1. push **** product on you see if you notice
2. If you notice try push slightly better product higher quantity.
3. Sell top product to their own

Now reversed the roles, we export the better quality meat/fruit overseas push the lower one into supermarkets.

We are being made fools us and think they are doing us a favour

p.s I lost so much time with installing, reinstalling the panels because failure or not upto scratch to offer to my customers id instantly pay 2x price if could get local solid quality ones. Id still be ahead on all the labour time lost and returns I had to rework

 

[satanoperca]

I used to buy lcd screen panels from china, not big quantity at a time maybye 5-10. Having been screwed quiet a few times beforehand, dead pixels or other physical defects (obviously they were factory seconds or failed qualty test)

I went around to new suppliers specifically asking and telling them I am happy to pay full price, no bargaining as long as there is no defects as mentioned above then we can proceed.

I got a instant reply yes yes good quality etc

Received the panels and they were worse then previous batch from different distributor, clusters of bad pixels.

When I asked them this is not what we agreed on.... the reply I got was totally ignoring my issue but telling me for big quantity customer 100+ we offer A+++ quality not A+ which apparently I got.

No sorry, no offer to fix the problem.

This is basically how business is done in China.

1. push **** product on you see if you notice
2. If you notice try push slightly better product higher quantity.
3. Sell top product to their own

Now reversed the roles, we export the better quality meat/fruit overseas push the lower one into supermarkets.

We are being made fools us and think they are doing us a favour

p.s I lost so much time with installing, reinstalling the panels because failure or not upto scratch to offer to my customers id instantly pay 2x price if could get local solid quality ones. Id still be ahead on all the labour time lost and returns I had to rework

So, did you ever go the factories?
How can buying min qty allow you to do QC?
Why didn't you buy off a local supplier?
Dealing with any O/S suppliers is all about numbers, or go local, at least if their is a problem, you have someone to knee cap.

 

[Smurf1976]

My experience is that if you’re obtaining something from China then it’s not a question of whether they can manufacture to a high standard, they certainly can, but whether they will actually do so.

Factories in Western countries will have “reject” product that has some flaw, that’s a reality of mass production, and depending on circumstances that product is either sold clearly identified as inferior or it’s simply scrapped without leaving the factory.

Chinese are far more inclined to put the dud one in the box and say nothing.

It’s to the point that I’ve seen a requirement to trace steel. As in obtain definite proof as to what steelworks the steel came from and what rolling mill made the pipes. Etc.

One company could guarantee the source since they ran the whole show themselves indeed they could even verify what mines the iron ore came from.

Rival company had its own production but also imports the product from China.

First one got the contract despite a higher price. Reason = lower product quality risk.

 

[againsthegrain]

So, did you ever go the factories?
How can buying min qty allow you to do QC?
Why didn't you buy off a local supplier?
Dealing with any O/S suppliers is all about numbers, or go local, at least if their is a problem, you have someone to knee cap.

1. For a small repair shop/business I wasn't at the stage to go China inspect 1k or 2k worth of product

2. In the electronics industry the local suppliers are the same guys but somebody drop shipping it in the middle for 1.5 the price then the source, and they are very very keen not to do business in person locally (wodner why) e.g "NO PICKUP AVAILABLE"

In this industry all the big players Sony, Philips, Apple etc they do not provide replacement parts to the market (unlike car manufacturers)

So you have guys in China or local guys which are the same guys with some "representative" here that sell you "OEM" parts which really are:

1. Factory seconds failed quality test from original manufacturer factory in China (im sure its some shady deal there because failed parts usually get remelted or binned)

2. Refurbs of original broken parts that have been bought back from the market, think about all those mobile phone "recyclers" on tv that buy back phones. e.g if a screen is cracked they will replace the glass and cables and keep the original lcd but the glass and cables are inferior quality.

So you have no choice really, I came to these confusions all from own experiences, lots or time and $.

Can't say I lost but I didn't win either.

Anyway I stopped doing that because it was not worth the trouble, but I did learn alot which I am glad I did.

So yes if you are spinning 100k per order and go fly there push them hard in the factory you will receive better crappy product

But I am sharing my experience as a whole about the attitude and the mentality. "made in china"

 

[Dona Ferentes]

It’s to the point that I’ve seen a requirement to trace steel. As in obtain definite proof as to what steelworks the steel came from and what rolling mill made the pipes. Etc.

One company could guarantee the source since they ran the whole show themselves indeed they could even verify what mines the iron ore came from.

I remember this from a few years ago.
https://greginsd.wordpress.com/2011...rods-in-infrastructure-to-pad-profit-margins/

It was explained to me that a price agreement is "merely establishing a number that can be used for the next round of negotiations."

 

[tech/a]

In the past our Steel was accompanied by a Chinese Q/A which had on it exactly what we required to pass the relevant Aust Standard

we have all our Steel Tested by Bureau Veritas then and now

after 2 rejections we now get what we ordered without the Chinese Q/A we just do our own Cert’s

 

[satanoperca]

1. For a small repair shop/business I wasn't at the stage to go China inspect 1k or 2k worth of product

2. In the electronics industry the local suppliers are the same guys but somebody drop shipping it in the middle for 1.5 the price then the source, and they are very very keen not to do business in person locally (wodner why) e.g "NO PICKUP AVAILABLE"

In this industry all the big players Sony, Philips, Apple etc they do not provide replacement parts to the market (unlike car manufacturers)

So you have guys in China or local guys which are the same guys with some "representative" here that sell you "OEM" parts which really are:

1. Factory seconds failed quality test from original manufacturer factory in China (im sure its some shady deal there because failed parts usually get remelted or binned)

2. Refurbs of original broken parts that have been bought back from the market, think about all those mobile phone "recyclers" on tv that buy back phones. e.g if a screen is cracked they will replace the glass and cables and keep the original lcd but the glass and cables are inferior quality.

So you have no choice really, I came to these confusions all from own experiences, lots or time and $.

Can't say I lost but I didn't win either.

Anyway I stopped doing that because it was not worth the trouble, but I did learn alot which I am glad I did.

So yes if you are spinning 100k per order and go fly there push them hard in the factory you will receive better crappy product

But I am sharing my experience as a whole about the attitude and the mentality. "made in china"

I did 2 China trips for LCD & LED Screens for signage, knowing that most of the product suppliers in Australia where sourcing their products from China.

After visiting over 10 factories, it became hard to determine who was supplying the quality product, but not impossible.

I simply asked for references of customers in UK,US, Canada, Australia that I could investigate and contact. Went from 10 potential suppliers to 3 very fast, of those three I contacted their customer references, was very education, mostly from the fact that people where willing to help, give you their experiences and knowledge.

In the end, I could not see where I had an edge in the Australian market place against the bigger players without running the risk of 1 in 5 products failing. Oh well $10k lost in expenses, but worth the exercise.

I did continue for a period of time supply electronic signage to customers, but was all sourced from local suppliers that had offices and a reputation.

 

[wayneL]

In the past our Steel was accompanied by a Chinese Q/A which had on it exactly what we required to pass the relevant Aust Standard

we have all our Steel Tested by Bureau Veritas then and now

after 2 rejections we now get what we ordered without the Chinese Q/A we just do our own Cert’s

Interesting thing about steel in my trade, and this is very anecdotal, but still...

For ordinary run-of-the-mill horseshoes, farriers can make a choice to either buy them premanufactured in China, (from Chinese steel obviously), or hand make them from scratch using either English or Australian steel.

Both are purportedly the same grade of mild steel, but the differences could not be more stark.

The first thing you notice is the amount of scale buildup when you keep the steel up in an LPG forge. The Chinese stuff scales up massively, where as the Australian English bar stock hardly scales up at all in comparison.

Then there is the comparison of how long a horse shoe lasts on the bottom of a horses hoof under normal circumstances.

The Chinese made products on average lasts 2 cycles, in other words you put new shoes on, and 5 weeks later there's enough wear to nail them on again with some slight modifications.

The Australian or English steel under the same circumstances with last for 3 or 4 cycles.

If you squelch from red heat, and increase hardness, the Chinese steel doesn't last any longer, whereas with the Australian or English steel you will get another two cycles easily.

Meanwhile be Chinese suppliers swear their steel is the same... It just isn't.

 

[sptrawler]

A friends S.I.L is an auto technician for a car company( not a local garage tech a H/O tech) that sells a couple of brands, one is a Chinese brand with an ex British marque name, my mate asked him about buying the value for money marque he was told don't.

 

[SirRumpole]

A friends S.I.L is an auto technician for a car company( not a local garage tech a H/O tech) that sells a couple of brands, one is a Chinese brand with an ex British marque name, my mate asked him about buying the value for money marque he was told don't.

MG ?

 

[satanoperca]

Interesting thing about steel in my trade, and this is very anecdotal, but still...

For ordinary run-of-the-mill horseshoes, farriers can make a choice to either buy them premanufactured in China, (from Chinese steel obviously), or hand make them from scratch using either English or Australian steel.

Both are purportedly the same grade of mild steel, but the differences could not be more stark.

The first thing you notice is the amount of scale buildup when you keep the steel up in an LPG forge. The Chinese stuff scales up massively, where as the Australian English bar stock hardly scales up at all in comparison.

Then there is the comparison of how long a horse shoe lasts on the bottom of a horses hoof under normal circumstances.

The Chinese made products on average lasts 2 cycles, in other words you put new shoes on, and 5 weeks later there's enough wear to nail them on again with some slight modifications.

The Australian or English steel under the same circumstances with last for 3 or 4 cycles.

If you squelch from red heat, and increase hardness, the Chinese steel doesn't last any longer, whereas with the Australian or English steel you will get another two cycles easily.

Meanwhile be Chinese suppliers swear their steel is the same... It just isn't.

WayneL, all steels look the same, but do they?

The difference is in the small details.

Ie. To me all horses look the same, big and scary, to you with a trained eye, you can see the difference between pet food and a thoroughbred, the same with all materials, it is the small differences that make a huge difference in performance.

 

[sptrawler]

MG ?

psychic ?

 

[SirRumpole]

psychic ?

What other ex British brands are Chinese owned ?

 

[Value Collector]

While I have 100% respect for the manufacturers I have dealt with in the past and present, I still never trust them to deliver a consistent level of quality, but then again, I don't leave it to chance that any supplier, regardless of country of origin can do it. But my reason for being cautious, I am the boss and if the product is inferior, I pay for it.

I am currently renovating two houses, and I have found the exact same with Australian tradesman, if people think they can get away with something, they will it’s a human thing.

 

[sptrawler]

What other ex British brands are Chinese owned ?

Lotus.

 

[Humid]

I am currently renovating two houses, and I have found the exact same with Australian tradesman, if people think they can get away with something, they will it’s a human thing.

Might have something to do with the quotes you accepted
I know plenty of good tradies who do things properly
It’s why their still in business