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Cashless society

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Value Collector said:
I have explained that.

Almost all Eftpos machines are capable of processing offline transactions, just like the old manual clunky system you described, but digital. The business just has to have that set up in the machine settings.

Years ago when I had my business I noticed the transactions I was processing were printing “offline transaction” at the bottom of the receipt, before I even realised the phone lines were down. Then when the phone lines came back on they all got sent through.

Modern systems can even switch between land line and mobile.

View attachment 183254
Click to expand...

Again: Governor of the RBA Michele Bullock:
"Cash is also an important backup method of payment during system outages or natural disasters, when electronic payments might be unavailable."

You just addressed one scenario you haven't addressed all the other possible scenarios. For example a shop has an EFTPOS terminal and it like any electronic product can do from time to time it malfunctions (e.g. won't turn on, etc) and needs to be repaired or replaced? In the meantime what does the shop do? What about system outages, natural disasters, etc? What you are trying to claim that an electronic system can function under scenarios is just silly, you are not living in reality.

So what you are trying to claim is that statement by the RBA governor has no basis in reality?

Also the fact of cash existing puts on a constraint on what credit card companies can charge in terms of fees because if the card fees start vastly outweighing the rewards points etc then people can switch to paying in cash. What happens when you get rid of cash? Card companies can then jack up the fees because its an oligopoly.

Also you didn't address my point about privacy!! Cash has a lot more privacy than digital payments!! Are people not entitled to privacy if they desire it?
 
Also there are a lot of restrictions with taking offline EFTPOS terminal payments and its again inferior to cash:

"IMPORTANT: Offline Mode is not designed to function as a secondary communications method. It is intended as an emergency continuation of processing capability. We are not responsible for any loss of stored transactions should the terminal malfunction before uploading the transactions to the Verifone Network.

NOTE: If a transaction is not allowed in Offline Mode your terminal will decline the transaction and show an error message, either: 'Declined', 'Invalid offline transaction', 'Over Offline Limit', 'Over System Limit' or 'Card Not Allowed'.

Limits and restrictions in Offline Mode​


You can only accept card-present Purchase transactions with debit, Visa, and Mastercard cards issued in New Zealand. You cannot process MOTO, Cash Out, Refund, Pre-Auth or contactless transactions while Offline.


An Offline transaction is only authorised if ALL of the following conditions are met:


  1. The cardholder must be present at the time of the transaction
  2. The receipt is signed by the customer and the signature is comparable to the signature on the card, or if prompted, the PIN is entered
  3. If a signature is required, your customer must sign the first merchant receipt
  4. You must retain and store this signed receipt in a secure location for 12 months
  5. You must select to accept the signature on the EFTPOS terminal when prompted

NOTE: Signature capture is performed on-screen for Android terminals

There are some limits for Offline Transactions:


  • The maximum dollar amount is $300 per transaction, per account, per card
  • Maximum 200 stored transactions per Offline session on the Verifone Network
  • Maximum 99 stored transactions per Offline session on the Worldline Network
  • A total of $5000 worth of transactions may be stored per session on the Verifone Network
  • Some chip cards override the limits set in the terminal e.g. no offline transactions, or only one offline transaction may be possible
  • Transactions permitted are:
    • Purchase
    • Purchase with tip
    • Purchase with surcharge
  • Not all card types are supported in Offline Mode, e.g. Union Pay, Amex cards and third-party cards like gift cards

This is from a New Zealand website but I am sure its more less the same for Australia https://support.eftpos.co.nz/offline-mode

Again with all the restrictions and problems above can you explain how EFTPOS backup system is superior to using cash when the system is offline due to internet outage, etc?
 
Value Hunter said:
Again: Governor of the RBA Michele Bullock:
"Cash is also an important backup method of payment during system outages or natural disasters, when electronic payments might be unavailable."

You just addressed one scenario you haven't addressed all the other possible scenarios. For example a shop has an EFTPOS terminal and it like any electronic product can do from time to time it malfunctions (e.g. won't turn on, etc) and needs to be repaired or replaced? In the meantime what does the shop do? What about system outages, natural disasters, etc? What you are trying to claim that an electronic system can function under scenarios is just silly, you are not living in reality.

So what you are trying to claim is that statement by the RBA governor has no basis in reality?

Also the fact of cash existing puts on a constraint on what credit card companies can charge in terms of fees because if the card fees start vastly outweighing the rewards points etc then people can switch to paying in cash. What happens when you get rid of cash? Card companies can then jack up the fees because its an oligopoly.

Also you didn't address my point about privacy!! Cash has a lot more privacy than digital payments!! Are people not entitled to privacy if they desire it?
Click to expand...
You seem to have skipped over my comments where I have said that I am not against cash, and that I carry a $50 note as back up. I have never said we should get rid of cash.

All I am saying is that digital is better, and that the cash handling costs should probably be passed along to those dealing in cash (all though I understand this would be difficult and not popular, so instead cash is going to be curtailed in other ways)
 
Value Hunter said:
Also there are a lot of restrictions with taking offline EFTPOS terminal payments and its again inferior to cash:

"IMPORTANT: Offline Mode is not designed to function as a secondary communications method. It is intended as an emergency continuation of processing capability. We are not responsible for any loss of stored transactions should the terminal malfunction before uploading the transactions to the Verifone Network.

NOTE: If a transaction is not allowed in Offline Mode your terminal will decline the transaction and show an error message, either: 'Declined', 'Invalid offline transaction', 'Over Offline Limit', 'Over System Limit' or 'Card Not Allowed'.

Limits and restrictions in Offline Mode​


You can only accept card-present Purchase transactions with debit, Visa, and Mastercard cards issued in New Zealand. You cannot process MOTO, Cash Out, Refund, Pre-Auth or contactless transactions while Offline.


An Offline transaction is only authorised if ALL of the following conditions are met:


  1. The cardholder must be present at the time of the transaction
  2. The receipt is signed by the customer and the signature is comparable to the signature on the card, or if prompted, the PIN is entered
  3. If a signature is required, your customer must sign the first merchant receipt
  4. You must retain and store this signed receipt in a secure location for 12 months
  5. You must select to accept the signature on the EFTPOS terminal when prompted

NOTE: Signature capture is performed on-screen for Android terminals

There are some limits for Offline Transactions:


  • The maximum dollar amount is $300 per transaction, per account, per card
  • Maximum 200 stored transactions per Offline session on the Verifone Network
  • Maximum 99 stored transactions per Offline session on the Worldline Network
  • A total of $5000 worth of transactions may be stored per session on the Verifone Network
  • Some chip cards override the limits set in the terminal e.g. no offline transactions, or only one offline transaction may be possible
  • Transactions permitted are:
    • Purchase
    • Purchase with tip
    • Purchase with surcharge
  • Not all card types are supported in Offline Mode, e.g. Union Pay, Amex cards and third-party cards like gift cards

This is from a New Zealand website but I am sure its more less the same for Australia https://support.eftpos.co.nz/offline-mode

Again with all the restrictions and problems above can you explain how EFTPOS backup system is superior to using cash when the system is offline due to internet outage, etc?
Click to expand...

My business eftpos was having issues during May & June, each Thursday or Friday afternoon we couldn't accept digital payments through our new and modern eftpos system. It would decline the customers card, they would check online using their phone and see that they had the funds in the correct account, while we check our machines internet connection. Every time the issue occurred it showed that the main connection was down, but the back-up was working.

The offline transaction would not work because of the limit, though a message came up with a phone number to call. We did and received a recorded message. After waiting 2 minutes the call was ended.

As a last resort the eftpos facility was restarted, and it worked.

This continued throughout May and June, and the first week of July. And as suddenly as it started, the problem stopped.

According to the bank there was no issues on their side. Which means it was a communication issue with their provider - OPTUS. But according to OPTUS they had no issues.

It is not a nice feeling for staff or customers when the payment system goes down and no one knows what is happening, and trying to contact the service provider is impossible during the issue and in a appropriate time frame.

I would never get rid of the digital monetary system; it is very useful and convenient. But it is not bulletproof, and I doubt that it will be for a very long time. There are too many variables, like software, hardware, communications system, hackers, power blackouts.

Cash will be here for quite a while, as supported by the Governor of the RBA -

Governor of the RBA Michele Bullock "Maintaining access to cash. We also remain focused on access to cash for Australians.
cash remains an important means of payment for some people and is widely held for precautionary or store-of-wealth purposes. Cash is also an important backup method of payment during system outages or natural disasters, when electronic payments might be unavailable.
For these reasons, the RBA places a high priority on the community continuing to have reasonable access to cash withdrawal and deposit services."
 
JohnDe said:
My business eftpos was having issues during May & June, each Thursday or Friday afternoon we couldn't accept digital payments through our new and modern eftpos system. It would decline the customers card, they would check online using their phone and see that they had the funds in the correct account, while we check our machines internet connection. Every time the issue occurred it showed that the main connection was down, but the back-up was working.

The offline transaction would not work because of the limit, though a message came up with a phone number to call. We did and received a recorded message. After waiting 2 minutes the call was ended.

As a last resort the eftpos facility was restarted, and it worked.

This continued throughout May and June, and the first week of July. And as suddenly as it started, the problem stopped.

According to the bank there was no issues on their side. Which means it was a communication issue with their provider - OPTUS. But according to OPTUS they had no issues.

It is not a nice feeling for staff or customers when the payment system goes down and no one knows what is happening, and trying to contact the service provider is impossible during the issue and in a appropriate time frame.

I would never get rid of the digital monetary system; it is very useful and convenient. But it is not bulletproof, and I doubt that it will be for a very long time. There are too many variables, like software, hardware, communications system, hackers, power blackouts.

Cash will be here for quite a while, as supported by the Governor of the RBA -

Governor of the RBA Michele Bullock "Maintaining access to cash. We also remain focused on access to cash for Australians.
cash remains an important means of payment for some people and is widely held for precautionary or store-of-wealth purposes. Cash is also an important backup method of payment during system outages or natural disasters, when electronic payments might be unavailable.
For these reasons, the RBA places a high priority on the community continuing to have reasonable access to cash withdrawal and deposit services."
Click to expand...
A perfect example why cash is vital and why all of society needs to be the cost of cash.
 
Value Collector said:
All I am saying is that digital is better, and that the cash handling costs should probably be passed along to those dealing in cash (all though I understand this would be difficult and not popular, so instead cash is going to be curtailed in other ways)
Click to expand...
I disagree that cash handling costs should be passed onto those dealing in cash, because everyone could potentially need to use cash in certain situations so therefore cash is a widely used public good and widely used public goods are often paid for by society at large (or at least subsidized).
 

Value Hunter said:
I disagree that cash handling costs should be passed onto those dealing in cash, because everyone could potentially need to use cash in certain situations so therefore cash is a widely used public good and widely used public goods are often paid for by society at large (or at least subsidized).
Click to expand...

Every one needs to use water, but we still pay for the water we use. We all need electricity but we pay for the service. We all need food but we pay for it, why should businesses that prefer to handle cash have their costs subsidised?

Every one might need to use digital payments, but the businesses using digital pay their way, and sometimes even pass the costs on to the consumers.
 
Value Collector said:
Every one needs to use water, but we still pay for the water we use. We all need electricity but we pay for the service. We all need food but we pay for it, why should businesses that prefer to handle cash have their costs subsidised?
Click to expand...
Well even water and electricity there was some initial level of taxpayer subsidization to build out the infrastructure grid. And also government owned public transport in Australia the ticket fare for trains and buses in Australia does not cover the full cost of providing the service its generally run at a loss with the balance being subsidized by taxpayers. Also do taxpayers in general not pay for the building of new roads and railways that they may never personally use? Domestic university students don't pay the full cost of their tuition its often subsidized by low interest government HECS loans and also by charging international students more and also by universities receiving government/taxpayer funding.

There are many examples in society of public goods where the cost is not fully borne by the user or do you dispute this basic fact?

Also the most important part about cash is the privacy and freedom aspect. Privacy because its much more private then digital transactions. And a good example of the freedom that cash offers is the COVID lock-down protests in Canada where the Canadian government shut down the bank accounts of protestors. Those that had access to cash were still able to function. What would they have done without cash?

If we get rid of cash society will devolve into complete and utter tyranny! Never forget that the government is your number one enemy!!
 
Last edited:
Value Hunter said:
Well even water and electricity there was some initial level of taxpayer subsidization to build out the infrastructure grid. And also government owned public transport in Australia the ticket fare for trains and buses in Australia does not cover the full cost of providing the service its generally run at a loss with the balance being subsidized by taxpayers. Also do taxpayers in general not pay for the building of new roads and railways that they may never personally use? Domestic university students don't pay the full cost of their tuition its often subsidized by low interest government HECS loans and also by charging international students more and also by universities receiving government/taxpayer funding.

There are many examples in society of public goods where the cost is not fully borne by the user or do you dispute this basic fact?

Also the most important part about cash is the privacy and freedom aspect. Privacy because its much more private then digital transactions. And a good example of the freedom that cash offers is the COVID lock-down protests in Canada where the Canadian government shut down the bank accounts of protestors. Those that had access to cash were still able to function. What would they have done without cash?

If we get rid of cash society will devolve into complete and utter tyranny! Never forget that the government is your number one enemy!!
Click to expand...
Cash currently gets heavily subsidised because it used to be the only system, so as you say every one used it so it made sense to have the government subsidise parts of it, and banks subsidise part because all their customers used it.

When credit cards came in only a small number of people used it, so it was decided it would be user pays.

However the roles have now reversed and a shrinking number of transactions are being done in cash and an ever growing number digitally. So the banks don’t want to invest as much in it any more.

The cost of running ATM’s, Armed guard trucks, printing the cash, counting it etc etc is very real and that large cost is getting spread amongst less and less customers, something has to give eventually

Eg it doesn’t make sense to run and ATM for $10,000 per year for 1 person.

————————

Privacy ? Yeah a lot of tax dodgers love that part, that’s why they offer discounts for cash.
 
JohnDe said:
According to the bank there was no issues on their side. Which means it was a communication issue with their provider - OPTUS. But according to OPTUS they had no issues.
Click to expand...
ah yes , i remember when i was having email issues and Oplus always blamed the email service , they were very unimpressed when provided with evidence that THEY provided the email service , and maybe should offer a credit or refund for the substandard service given ( for 12 months it didn't work properly )
 
"Cash currently gets heavily subsidised"

This is profound BS. ALL businesses have both a profit an loss statement and balance sheet, the p&l containing several sections, cost of business, expenses etc.

Each business must incorporate in their costings all overhead costs, or are we to say that businesses are subsidizing their electricity, staff, advertising, motor vehicles, etc etc etc. Electronic banking and cash handling are both overhead costs and it is patently f##$ing absurd to say any of these costs are being subsidized.
 
Value Collector said:
The cost of running ATM’s, Armed guard trucks, printing the cash, counting it etc etc is very real and that large cost is getting spread amongst less and less customers, something has to give eventually
Click to expand...
I get where you are coming from but I don't think cash usage will keep declining until it gets to zero, it will stabilize at a certain level because there is always a base level need for cash (privacy, freedom, tax avoidance, back up system, etc). In the U.K. the banking industry already collectively pays a levy to fund the cash distribution system and I don't see an issue with that.
 
Value Collector said:
Privacy ? Yeah a lot of tax dodgers love that part, that’s why they offer discounts for cash.
Click to expand...
Firstly you didn't address my concerns about freedom. If there is no cash and the government wishes to freeze peoples bank accounts for wrong-think how can they live?

Secondly you think tax dodging is the only reason to want privacy?

There are million legitimate reasons to want privacy. What if someone wants to go to a brothel and doesn't want others to be able to see from it from their transaction history? What if somebody wants to surprise their woman with a wedding ring and doesn't want the missus to see a large transaction from Michael Hill Jeweller when looking at their transaction history, etc? What if a man is planning on getting divorced and wants to start slowly stashing away some cash so he doesn't get completely divorce raped and cleaned out 100% by his wife? What if someone wants to buy gold and doesn't want the government to know in case gold confiscation is implemented in the future as it was in the U.S.A. during the great depression.

Besides I don't think its fair to blame people who are dodging some of their taxes given how high the tax burden is and how immoral and corrupt our government is and how much of the tax money is squandered. Some people need to dodge a portion of their taxes just to keep their heads above water in the current climate. Taxes today are unconscionable compared to historical standards. Even just 100 years ago the tax burden was a fraction of what it is today. Besides taxation is non-voluntary so of course a certain percentage of people are going to resist the immoral tyranny of taxation.
 
Value Hunter said:
I get where you are coming from but I don't think cash usage will keep declining until it gets to zero, it will stabilize at a certain level because there is always a base level need for cash (privacy, freedom, tax avoidance, back up system, etc). In the U.K. the banking industry already collectively pays a levy to fund the cash distribution system and I don't see an issue with that.
Click to expand...
Cash usage is already at a low enough level that the banks are feeling the pinch, and wanting to cut back on the amount they spend to support it.

And a lot of the cash usage only exists because some small businesses pass on the costs of digital, or avoid moving to digital due to cost. So if it wasn’t for the cash transactions being subsidised the move to digital would be even larger and cash would decline faster.

Not to mention the cash transactions that only exist to support tax evasion.
 
Value Hunter said:
Firstly you didn't address my concerns about freedom. If there is no cash and the government wishes to freeze peoples bank accounts for wrong-think how can they live?

Secondly you think tax dodging is the only reason to want privacy?

There are million legitimate reasons to want privacy. What if someone wants to go to a brothel and doesn't want others to be able to see from it from their transaction history? What if somebody wants to surprise their woman with a wedding ring and doesn't want the missus to see a large transaction from Michael Hill Jeweller when looking at their transaction history, etc? What if a man is planning on getting divorced and wants to start slowly stashing away some cash so he doesn't get completely divorce raped and cleaned out 100% by his wife? What if someone wants to buy gold and doesn't want the government to know in case gold confiscation is implemented in the future as it was in the U.S.A. during the great depression.

Besides I don't think its fair to blame people who are dodging some of their taxes given how high the tax burden is and how immoral and corrupt our government is and how much of the tax money is squandered. Some people need to dodge a portion of their taxes just to keep their heads above water in the current climate. Taxes today are unconscionable compared to historical standards. Even just 100 years ago the tax burden was a fraction of what it is today. Besides taxation is non-voluntary so of course a certain percentage of people are going to resist the immoral tyranny of taxation.
Click to expand...
People using cash paying for its costs doesn’t take away privacy.

But if you want privacy with digital transactions you can buy a single use master card gift card from Cole’s and use it to visit the brothel or buy the wedding ring.

If your girlfriend is going to notice the credit card transaction, isn’t she going to notice you withdrawing $10 K in cash?
 
Value Collector said:
If your girlfriend is going to notice the credit card transaction, isn’t she going to notice you withdrawing $10 K in cash?
Click to expand...
depends on if that cash ever touched your bank accounts , and who said it was a boy/girl friend , most seem to be married people ( in my experience )
 

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