Cashless society

[Garpal Gumnut]

Nope, that’s not the way it works.

Cash is legal tender, but that doesn’t mean people are forced to accept it.

when you purchase something you are entering into a private contract, and the Seller has the right to set the terms and conditions of the sale, including set out how they would like to be paid, and any fees involved.

If they give you verbal or written notice in the form of a sign that they don’t accept cash payments, or have a handling fee. that’s totally legal.

The can also state that they don’t accept certain denominations.

View attachment 153628

Thanks @Value Collector

That may carry some truth in contracted sales where options for how the contract is to be paid are negotiated and written in and signed off on.

I see problems with an entity such as Coles putting up a sign for a 5% charge on cash which devalues legal tender which in itself has a binding contract written in to it.

I’ll check with some barristers when they come down from court to spend their cash on drinks.

gg

 

[Value Collector]

Thanks @Value Collector

That may carry some truth in contracted sales where options for how the contract is to be paid are negotiated and written in and signed off on.

I see problems with an entity such as Coles putting up a sign for a 5% charge on cash which devalues legal tender which in itself has a binding contract written in to it.

I’ll check with some barristers when they come down from court to spend their cash on drinks.

gg

The contract can be either verbal or written on a sign, I don’t think the cash handling fee would be 5% probably more like 1%

At the end of the day many businesses pass along the cost of processing electronic transactions, why not pass along the cost of cash transactions, because that cost is equally real, and often higher.

If society wants to ban passing along the cash handling costs, I would support that, provided the electronic payments were treated equally to cash.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

The contract can be either verbal or written on a sign, I don’t think the cash handling fee would be 5% probably more like 1%

At the end of the day many businesses pass along the cost of processing electronic transactions, why not pass along the cost of cash transactions, because that cost is equally real, and often higher.

If society wants to ban passing along the cash handling costs, I would support that, provided the electronic payments were treated equally to cash.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree until we can get a legal opinion on it.

I see the contract written in by the government and unchangeable if buying or selling goods with cash.

You on the other hand disagree.

I will try and get a barrister's opinion on it when they are mellow and willing to give free advice and not too intoxicated that they want to shout the place down with information that should be legal in confidence.

gg

 

[JohnDe]

Cash in the bank is your friend. Credit is your crutch.

Cash deposits: when to hold them, where and why

Holding cash in the bank is a foreign concept for many people in today’s world of digital money, big mortgages and rising consumer debts.

Cash provides a valuable emergency buffer, but some people are better off diverting dollars elsewhere to save interest, earn higher income or grow their investments.

Knowing when to hold cash, where, and how much, are important money-management skills.

People’s Choice Credit Union spokesman Stuart Symons says while everyone’s situation is different, unplanned expenses do arise.

“I think there is a clear advantage to having immediate access to some of your money and not having it all locked away,” he says.

“Emergencies do happen.”

Here is a guide to holding cash, based on your life stage or financial situation.

YOUNG, SINGLE AND DEBT-FREE

Cash in the bank is your friend, for its flexibility. Westpac data shows a typical customer aged between 18 and 34 has almost $3000 sitting in term deposits, transaction and savings accounts.

Young people can consider investing in shares and other growth-focused assets. Finance specialists recommend holding between 10 and 30 per cent of your wealth in cash.

SAVING FOR SOMETHING

New research by Finder.com.au has found that three in five Australians have a regular savings habit, and people put away an average $743 monthly.

If you have a savings goal such as a home, car or holiday, cash is king because it won’t lose value like most investments can. If the money will be needed within three-to-five years, put it in the bank for certainty rather than potentially face short-term investment weakness.

Candi Hindocha and Andrew Jones are saving for and looking for their first home, so it cash savings make sense.

“We don’t want to invest it, where there’s a risk of suffering a loss, because that could be the difference between getting our home sooner rather than later,” she says.

Jones says the couple keeps cash mainly in a savings account and “minimal amounts in the transaction account”.

CARRYING CONSUMER DEBT

Credit cards can have interest rates near 20 per cent, so holding money in cash earning 2-4 per cent when you are not repaying the card debt within its interest-free period is costing you money.

Symons says you should not be paying interest on your credit card if you don’t have to.

“However, it comes down to personal circumstances,” he says.

“People might want to keep the cash if it’s a sensible buffer against emergencies. If it’s any more than that, then using it to avoid interest payments makes sense.”

REPAYING MORTGAGES

The one-third of Australians who are paying off home loans often have options where their cash shouldn’t be sitting in savings.

“If you have a home loan then an offset account or redraw facility can make sense because your money’s accessible but still working for you,” Symons says.

Finder.com.au head of consumer research Graham Cooke says keep cash in a place that benefits you most.

“An offset account, for example, reduces the interest you pay on your mortgage,” he says.

“If your mortgage interest rate is 5 per cent, then any cash you don’t keep in the offset is costing you 5 per cent annually.”

OLDER AUSTRALIANS

Cash gains importance for those nearing and in retirement. Financial planners often recommend holding a cash buffer of two or three years of income needs, then investing the rest in a diverse portfolio of assets.

Westpac’s data shows customers age 65-74 have an average $46,067 in cash accounts, while the median for this age group is $4951.

Where you hold the cash is important too. “The average rate of interest awarded in a transaction account is 0 per cent – so only keep funds in there that you use for everyday spending,” Cooke says.

“Look for the best rate you can get – and make sure it’s an ongoing rate that doesn’t disappear after three or four months.”

ANTHONY KEANE PERSONAL FINANCE WRITER

 

[JohnDe]

Thanks @Value Collector

That may carry some truth in contracted sales where options for how the contract is to be paid are negotiated and written in and signed off on.

I see problems with an entity such as Coles putting up a sign for a 5% charge on cash which devalues legal tender which in itself has a binding contract written in to it.

I’ll check with some barristers when they come down from court to spend their cash on drinks.

gg

When & if Australia goes into recession, I wonder whether some businesses will continue to refuse cash payments.

Can a business refuse to accept cash?

Under most circumstances, yes it is legal for a business to refuse to accept cash, although in this writer's opinion that would be a pretty poor business decision.

Basically the same reading of the same laws we looked at last week apply: the provider of the goods or services is "at liberty to set the commercial terms upon which payment will take place before the 'contract' for supply of the goods or services is entered into".

"But cash is legal tender! They have to take it!" I hear you say.

There are circumstances in which this is true.

Refusal to accept any legal tender - including coins - in the payment of a debt where no other form of payment has been specified in advance could have legal consequences.

You can read all about commercial terms on the RBA website here, or if you're feeling particularly interested you can pore over the legislation of the Currency Act 1965 here.

Every sale, transaction, dealing or liability to pay, money in Australia is to be done in Australian currency. Unless agreed between parties, they may accept payment in the currency of another country.

There is no law however against a provider of good and services setting terms upon which they will accept payment before the contract for the supply of goods or services. For example, signs before you order a coffee saying they will not accept cash or on a parking metre indicating they will not accept coins of a low denomination.

However, refusal to accept legal tender in payment of an existing debt, where no other means of payment or settlement has been specified in advance, possibly could have consequences in legal proceedings. For example, the creditor may be unable to enforce payment in any other form.

In summary, the answer is “yes” a business can legally refuse a cash payment.

However, if you are a citizen who does not have the ability to pay by card such as persons to young to own a debit card or a more senior citizen, we suggest contacting businesses to confirm they are still accepting cash before making the journey there. If this business is the only place you can obtain the good or service, we suggest explaining your situation to the business so that they understand why you must pay cash. This may see them accept your cash payment.

https://www.adamslawyers.com.au/can-a-business-legally-refuse-a-cash-payment/

 

[moXJO]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree until we can get a legal opinion on it.

I see the contract written in by the government and unchangeable if buying or selling goods with cash.

You on the other hand disagree.

I will try and get a barrister's opinion on it when they are mellow and willing to give free advice and not too intoxicated that they want to shout the place down with information that should be legal in confidence.

gg

Good luck if that's ever the case in a restaurant or somewhere I can open the packet before paying.
"Oh you don't want my cash, cheers for the free meal"

 

[qldfrog]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree until we can get a legal opinion on it.

I see the contract written in by the government and unchangeable if buying or selling goods with cash.

You on the other hand disagree.

I will try and get a barrister's opinion on it when they are mellow and willing to give free advice and not too intoxicated that they want to shout the place down with information that should be legal in confidence.

gg

the legal way would be to have a $ (cash) price advertised and offer a discount on card payments:
nothing wrong with that I can see
If it is right for qantas to advertise prices that you can not pay in cash (online) but have an extra mandatory fee for card payment, this will go like a breeze

 

[JohnDe]

Good luck if that's ever the case in a restaurant or somewhere I can open the packet before paying.
"Oh you don't want my cash, cheers for the free meal"

 

[Value Collector]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree until we can get a legal opinion on it.

I see the contract written in by the government and unchangeable if buying or selling goods with cash.

You on the other hand disagree.

I will try and get a barrister's opinion on it when they are mellow and willing to give free advice and not too intoxicated that they want to shout the place down with information that should be legal in confidence.

gg

That quote I put up comes from a lawyers website that specialises in Merchant law.

 

[Value Collector]

When & if Australia goes into recession, I wonder whether some businesses will continue to refuse cash payments.

I guess it comes down to whether they believe it will lower their costs, I mean if you currently are paying armed guards to pick up cash and paying staff $25 an hour to count cash and sort floats etc, it might be well worth refusing cash, especially because almost everyone has cards these days.

I actually see people that charge surcharges on cards or have minimum spends for cards as being bigger road blocks to customers, but they seem to still sell ok.

I have noticed Coles and woolies steadily reducing the number of self checkouts that accept cash, I found myself with a bunch of cash I wanted to get rid of a couple of months back after selling some stuff, and found it hard to use the cash at Coles because the one self checkout that accepted cash always had a line, so I kept using the card instead.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

That quote I put up comes from a lawyers website that specialises in Merchant law.

Indeed. Is that so ?

But is it "The Vibe" ?

gg

 

[Value Collector]

Indeed. Is that so ?

But is it "The Vibe" ?

gg

When you think about places already add surcharges to the stated cash price all the time, take week end and public holiday pricing for example. The menu says the burrito is $8, next minute you get charged $9.60

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

When you think about places already add surcharges to the stated cash price all the time, take week end and public holiday pricing for example. The menu says the burrito is $8, next minute you get charged $9.60

Isn't there a weekend Burrito Bureau that allows traders to charge more on weekends and Public Holidays.

This has nothing to do with HM QE11 indicating the tender on the note presented.

You are going off track a little, son.

gg

 

[Value Collector]

Isn't there a weekend Burrito Bureau that allows traders to charge more on weekends and Public Holidays.

This has nothing to do with HM QE11 indicating the tender on the note presented.

You are going off track a little, son.

gg

A currencies “legal tender status” just means that it’s the accept currency of that nation, it doesn’t imply that it must be accepted, as I stated when it comes to dealing in cash each sale is still a separate contract between two parties and the seller has the right to outline the terms of that contract.

 

[moXJO]

That's epic!

 

[moXJO]

I know plenty of Asian restaurants, bakeries that only deal in cash.
VC is also correct. So long as you inform customers before purchase, you can refuse cash.

 

[farmerge]

Rule no 1, always position yourself yourself upwind.
Mick

That maybe so but I was the paid lackey

 

[JohnDe]

I guess it comes down to whether they believe it will lower their costs, I mean if you currently are paying armed guards to pick up cash and paying staff $25 an hour to count cash and sort floats etc, it might be well worth refusing cash, especially because almost everyone has cards these days.

I actually see people that charge surcharges on cards or have minimum spends for cards as being bigger road blocks to customers, but they seem to still sell ok.

I have noticed Coles and woolies steadily reducing the number of self checkouts that accept cash, I found myself with a bunch of cash I wanted to get rid of a couple of months back after selling some stuff, and found it hard to use the cash at Coles because the one self checkout that accepted cash always had a line, so I kept using the card instead.

I'll tell you a short story about how some grow their business.

There are two craft breweries, both started by 3 friends, let's call one Pirate and the other Shape.

The owners of Pirate want to be the best and biggest craft brewery in the state and eventually the country, the want to emulate their American craft heroes like Sierra Nevada Brewing.

Shape wants the same thing, but Pirate has a few years head start on them.

Pirate produce all the right brews, they have tastings and sales at their brewing shed and soon offer food. Just like they do in the USA, the model for craft brewery experiences.

Shape also has the brews that customers want, great quality beers at a great venue, and food for customers to enjoy.

Both breweries win awards for their beers and sell all over the country.

Customers go to Pirate and ask if they can pay with cash "of course" says the Pirate owners. They decided long ago that without customers they are nothing, and that they will go the extra mile to try and make all their customers happy. They outgrow their location and purchase a large block of land and start building a new and bigger brewery with a fabulous area for customers.

Shape has a slightly different philosophy. The customer is one of their most important assets, productivity is king, they see a future with no cash and only electronic funds. With cash productivity is low, it is hard to collect cash, count it and bank it, which adds to the cost of doing business. Shape makes it a rule 'no cash payment'.

Soon Pirate's name is on the lips of all ages, hearing about it from friends and family. People go out of their way to visit it, and stay for a beer, food, they even have games. Games you say. Yes, even though it costs the business time and money they have all sorts of free games for people to play.

One day, just before Pirate is ready to move into the almost ready new venue, a multinational brewing giant makes a generous offer to buy the brewery and they want the whole team to stay on.
The sale went ahead, and the brewery is run by the original crew, it grows and keeps prospering, nothing changes other than their success keeps growing. Cash is still an accepted form of payment, even though a multinational company now owns it.

Even though it is at a slower rate, Shape is also growing. They have just renovated their function area and started a club membership program which has been a success (I purchased one with a friend), the beers are fantastic, staff great, customer numbers are slowly increasing but it has never come close to Pirate. And they still don't take cash.

A smart business will weigh up the cost/benefit ratio of certain practices. Take Pirate's example of having free games for customers to play, there is a cost to purchase, maintain and service. However, the benefits are high. Customers stay longer, they have fun and spread the word. Another example, cash requires someone to count and bank but the benefit is that another income stream is open, and sometimes people don't want their partner seeing the bank statement showing that they shouted their mates a round or purchased a carton of limited edition Barely Wine beer.

It's easy to see which is the smart business owner and which one is treading water.

 

[Value Collector]

I'll tell you a short story about how some grow their business.

There are two craft breweries, both started by 3 friends, let's call one Pirate and the other Shape.

The owners of Pirate want to be the best and biggest craft brewery in the state and eventually the country, the want to emulate their American craft heroes like Sierra Nevada Brewing.

Shape wants the same thing, but Pirate has a few years head start on them.

Pirate produce all the right brews, they have tastings and sales at their brewing shed and soon offer food. Just like they do in the USA, the model for craft brewery experiences.

Shape also has the brews that customers want, great quality beers at a great venue, and food for customers to enjoy.

Both breweries win awards for their beers and sell all over the country.

Customers go to Pirate and ask if they can pay with cash "of course" says the Pirate owners. They decided long ago that without customers they are nothing, and that they will go the extra mile to try and make all their customers happy. They outgrow their location and purchase a large block of land and start building a new and bigger brewery with a fabulous area for customers.

Shape has a slightly different philosophy. The customer is one of their most important assets, productivity is king, they see a future with no cash and only electronic funds. With cash productivity is low, it is hard to collect cash, count it and bank it, which adds to the cost of doing business. Shape makes it a rule 'no cash payment'.

Soon Pirate's name is on the lips of all ages, hearing about it from friends and family. People go out of their way to visit it, and stay for a beer, food, they even have games. Games you say. Yes, even though it costs the business time and money they have all sorts of free games for people to play.

One day, just before Pirate is ready to move into the almost ready new venue, a multinational brewing giant makes a generous offer to buy the brewery and they want the whole team to stay on.
The sale went ahead, and the brewery is run by the original crew, it grows and keeps prospering, nothing changes other than their success keeps growing. Cash is still an accepted form of payment, even though a multinational company now owns it.

Even though it is at a slower rate, Shape is also growing. They have just renovated their function area and started a club membership program which has been a success (I purchased one with a friend), the beers are fantastic, staff great, customer numbers are slowly increasing but it has never come close to Pirate. And they still don't take cash.

A smart business will weigh up the cost/benefit ratio of certain practices. Take Pirate's example of having free games for customers to play, there is a cost to purchase, maintain and service. However, the benefits are high. Customers stay longer, they have fun and spread the word. Another example, cash requires someone to count and bank but the benefit is that another income stream is open, and sometimes people don't want their partner seeing the bank statement showing that they shouted their mates a round or purchased a carton of limited edition Barely Wine beer.

It's easy to see which is the smart business owner and which one is treading water.

In your fable, it probably doesn’t make sense to charge for using either cash or credit.

But we already know many businesses, especially ones with lower profits margins than craft beer are choosing to pass card fees along to their customers.

So we already live in a world where business owners are taking the cost of processing payments into consideration and passing the costs along to customers either directly or hidden in the price.

Cash handling isn’t free, and most of the costs are fixed, which means the cost of processing each cash transaction rises as cash becomes less popular.

————————
As I said previously I am not a fan of charging for either cash or credit card, I believe both should be free.

But a lot of businesses owners disagree, and charge for card, as the cost of card declines and the cost of cash rises, what will happen?

 

[JohnDe]

In your fable, it probably doesn’t make sense to charge for using either cash or credit.

But we already know many businesses, especially ones with lower profits margins than craft beer are choosing to pass card fees along to their customers.

So we already live in a world where business owners are taking the cost of processing payments into consideration and passing the costs along to customers either directly or hidden in the price.

Cash handling isn’t free, and most of the costs are fixed, which means the cost of processing each cash transaction rises as cash becomes less popular.

————————
As I said previously I am not a fan of charging for either cash or credit card, I believe both should be free.

But a lot of businesses owners disagree, and charge for card, as the cost of card declines and the cost of cash rises, what will happen?

I can see why you sold your business.

What you call a "fable" is actually a true story; Pirate Life Sold to the World’s Largest Brewing Company

I discovered Craft Beer many years ago and took a serious interest about 15 years ago. I even traveled to the USA to enjoy their craft beer scene, touring local breweries.

In business there is a cost for everything. Opening the doors 30 minutes earlier than the competition will increase operating costs, but there may be an increase of income if extra customers come in.

Same with cash at a brewery, some of the specialty beers are very expensive and are cellared like wines, maybe someone doesn't want to advertise on their bank statement that they purchased an expensive beer. The brewery that refuses cash to save on costs may also be shutting off an extra income stream.