BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

[drsmith]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Irrispective of where individual opinion stands regarding compassion, buyer beware and the motives of individuals on the register (Bolton), the fundamental problem is that this is a leveraged investment without the need for individual investors to jump through the usual hoops to access leveraging.

While it is the height of stupidity for anyone to be buying this in it's present state, it is also true that the financial structure of BCS is what has led it to it's present problems and for that the promoters need to some responsibility.

I wonder to what extent the concept of partly paid units survives this debacle.

 

[Enzyme]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

In the Bolton affair, any idiot can see that the transactions are not genuine, but rather a direct attempt to pass the liability off the the underwriters.

But that is not obvious at all. Not even to the lawyers acting for the underwriters.

The AFR reported last week that Macquarie and Deutsche were joining the current court action because they were concerned that BrisConnections statements that winding up the trusts would not extinguish the liability were misleading. That could leave the underwriters liable in a future class action.

The Deutsche lawyer said words to the effect of "Mr Bolton says winding up the trusts will extinguish the liability. BrisConnections says it will not. We believe that neither is correct and the truth is somewhere in between." (that is my recollection of an article I read last week, not an actual direct quote from it)

The Deutsche lawyer guy is asking the court to rule on this point. That should be the one of the outcomes of the current action. It is possible that the court may rule that Bolton's actions in winding up the trusts may relieve the underwriters of their obligation, in full or in part.

 

[Julia]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Is it worth potentially bankrupting hundreds of individuals in order for it to proceed?

Can you explain why you think it would be appropriate for the taxpayers to be saddled with the cost when the project has been underwritten by Maquarie and Deutsche?

And, whilst I agree that in future more documentation should happen before buying partly paid shares, let's remember that E-trade and NAB clearly stated on the final buy screen that there were two further payments to be made, apparently just Comsec failing to do this. This seems to be getting a bit lost in the current argument.

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Can you explain why you think it would be appropriate for the taxpayers to be saddled with the cost when the project has been underwritten by Maquarie and Deutsche?

And, whilst I agree that in future more documentation should happen before buying partly paid shares, let's remember that E-trade and NAB clearly stated on the final buy screen that there were two further payments to be made, apparently just Comsec failing to do this. This seems to be getting a bit lost in the current argument.

Julia, I totally agree it should not be the Qld govt's problem. If they have put it out to the private sector, they shouldn't have to pick up the pieces. I would imagine they will be expecting the private sector to sort this mess out.

Will leave Junior to give his reasons why he thinks Qld taxpayers should pick up the pieces...

WebIress also displays "$1 pd $2 unpd". However, from the the posts in this thread, it appears there may have been quite a few Commsec clients caught out.

 

[Junior]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Can you explain why you think it would be appropriate for the taxpayers to be saddled with the cost when the project has been underwritten by Maquarie and Deutsche?

And, whilst I agree that in future more documentation should happen before buying partly paid shares, let's remember that E-trade and NAB clearly stated on the final buy screen that there were two further payments to be made, apparently just Comsec failing to do this. This seems to be getting a bit lost in the current argument.

I'm not saying that taxpayers should have to pick up the pieces. I just think that, given the circumstances, a large number of individual investors should not be made bankrupt because they unknowingly took on a ridiculous liability which they never had any chance of being able to pay. If this toll road is actually expected to be profitable, then maybe the Government should consider taking a stake.

 

[Enzyme]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

What should happen is that Brisconnections act in the interests of their unit holders. That is their obligation.

They should wind up the trusts now. That would mean:

1. Many of their unit holders will be spared bunkruptcy;
2. Those unit holders that would be able to pay will spared seeing their additional investments devalue to nothing.
3. The underwriters will be spared near $760 million in liabilities. (maybe - we'll see what the court says)
4. There may be some outstanding liabilities. Some creditors may not be paid in full. There will be a mess to sort out and possibly an administrator or similar appointed to sort things out as best they can as is done with other failed companies.
5. 1100 people will lose their jobs.
6. There will be part of an unfinished road in Brisbane with no money to finish it.

The issue of what to do with the unfinished road then becomes then becomes the Government's problem, whether they like it or not. The government should then act in the best interests of all Queenslanders. That is their obligation. The government can then either:

1. Try to get another company to come in and finish the job. BrisConnections won a concession to operate the road from the government. There were other interested parties. See if one of those will be preparred to step in and finish the job. The new company would have an economic advantage over BrisConnections in that now close to $600 million has already been spent on the project ($380 million from Brisconnections shareholders so far, and $200+ million plus from the government). That money and the work done with it so far would be a free head start for a new company coming in and should give them an advantage over Brisconnections. They might be able to simply pick up the contracts with current builders, or;

2. If the economics of the project are so bad that no company can be found to come in and pick up and run with the project the government then has a choice. They can either:

a. decide that the project is of such importance and value to the people of Queensland that they should build, pay for, and operate it themselves, or

b. decide that the project is just not worth it. There is no sence throwing good money after bad. Clean up the mess as best as possible and forget the whole thing.​

The interests of the BrisConnections are different to those of the Governent and those of the underwriters. We shouldn't get them mixed up.

 

[Macquack]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

The new company would have an economic advantage over BrisConnections in that now close to $600 million has already been spent on the project ($380 million from Brisconnections shareholders so far, and $200+ million plus from the government).

That $380 million has not been spent on the road in a tangible form.

For a start, Macquarie scammed $110 million for organising the float.

 

[Enzyme]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You are quite right there MacQuack.

Here is a report on yesterday's court proceedings. Now the lawyers for the Queensland government are expected to join this lawyer love in.

How do you get a bunch of lawyers to smile for a group photo?

Get them to say 'fees'.

 

[Shine]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

And the plot thickens yet again.

Now there is another company (this one is based in Sydney) seeking to acquire 19.9% of BrisConnections units. Its Corporate Advisor goes back to the Alan Bond days.

 

[Mc Gusto]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You are quite right there MacQuack.

Here is a report on yesterday's court proceedings. Now the lawyers for the Queensland government are expected to join this lawyer love in.

How do you get a bunch of lawyers to smile for a group photo?

Get them to say 'fees'.

Now it makes some sense...that is the method behind bol;ton's 'madness' but could the honestly expect that unti holders may see 50c return p/unit. that would make bolton a very wealthy man.

I used to have quite close ties to bolton and williams they are very sharp. thought there may be somethimg more to this.

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I have previously been suggesting better prevention and education - not "a great wrong has been done"...

Still no answer?

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

But that is not obvious at all. Not even to the lawyers acting for the underwriters.

Even the Judge said it was clearly a "Bottom of Phillip Bay" Scheme. (Or whichever harbour it was he chose). How much more obvious did you want to make it? It's not about whether winding down the trust will escape liability - it's about Bolton buying up shares and then having an option on them for a $100 company that was until recently in a non-trading status.

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Now it makes some sense...that is the method behind bol;ton's 'madness' but could the honestly expect that unti holders may see 50c return p/unit. that would make bolton a very wealthy man.

I used to have quite close ties to bolton and williams they are very sharp. thought there may be somethimg more to this.

I doubt that was his strategy all along, he's just using that as an argument to put some "legitimacy" to his stumble-upon strategy. Besides, Bolton won't get rich, Williams will, having the options on those shares

In all reality, if he does shut down the trust, you can bet Brisconnections will probably be sued by every contractor they've engaged so far, as well as the Queensland government, leaving nothing in the trust to return to unit hodlers.

And if Bolton and Williams are so sharp, how did ASI get into this mess in the first place?

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Still no answer?

Answer to what?

 

[mikeyfinn111]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

It appears some of the posts from this forum was admitted to the court documents yesterday in favour of us unitholders so thankyou for everyones contribution of thoughts and ideas of the way this should be handled. Keep up the good work

 

[prawn_86]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

It appears some of the posts from this forum was admitted to the court documents yesterday in favour of us unitholders so thankyou for everyones contribution of thoughts and ideas of the way this should be handled. Keep up the good work

Got a link or reference to that? It would be interested to know exactly what they showed.

How did you find out?

 

[mikeyfinn111]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Got a link or reference to that? It would be interested to know exactly what they showed.

How did you find out?

I found out internally by someone who was in the courts yesterday. He hasnt disclosed exactly what posts were presented but they were definately acknowledged and admitted into court documents. Im not trying to be a media outlet here with an exclusive just wanted to say keep up the good work in bringing ideas to the table as they are helping (if only slightly) to the proceedings. I have read numerous posts on here with info regarding legal wordings and details of quite credible legal avenues that Nick might have, and BCS doesnt. Maybe they are taking these into account.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Anything to do with different screen shots from different online trading providers perhaps?

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Answer to what?

To who exactly it is we should be having compassion/sympathy on. It seems most people here have misplaced sympathy for Robin Hood, and those willing to take the spoils from him.

 

[thermalmonster]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Oh, Sunder !!