BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder,

Can you name one other thing that it is possible to spend $500 on, and inherit a $1,000,000 debt, and by only clicking a mouse 3 or 4 times in the process (in other words something that my 4 year old could land me into if I left the computer and went to the dunny).

One thing Maquarie has not done here is maintain a market for the issue. They created this debacle and are not supporting it, meaning to me that they knew they sold a pup. That is morally wrong and possibly legally wrong. Time and court action is where this is heading.

There are two separate issues here:

1. Did the broker/vendor adequately advertise the liability. That issue has not been raised for quite a few pages. Let's not raise it again.

2. Is it moral to either offload the debt to someone else who is unaware of it, or else offload it to the underwriters through "legal trickery" which is likely to classified as fraud?

The only issue discussed in the last couple of pages is 2.

I strongly do not believe that even full admission of liability in 1, justifies a person acting immorally or illegally in 2.

 

[Julia]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

At least Macquarie sold them with full disclosure on an open market, while they still had value. (Meaning the buyers were not buying into massive debt)

Two points here:
1. yes Macquarie or BCSCA did go to the market with full disclosure. That people failed to access that disclosure cannot be blamed on Macquarie.
2. Actually, Sunder, your statement in brackets is essentially the crux of this whole subject, in that the buyers WERE buying into massive debt.
Point 1. above made this clear in that there were two further installments making up the stapled security.

But to fool someone intentionally into taking them, or to use loopholes in the law to quasi-legally offload your obligation, is not comparable with a company that performed an IPO meeting every legal and moral obligation. It just doesn't compare.

Agree absolutely.

I think your missing the point some what sunder

No, I don't think Sunder is missing the point at all. You are choosing not to see the point he is making.

I clearly said that all people would need to be properly informed. And if so, what else do you want?

Shaun, have you read through this whole thread?
We have already had this debate ad infinitum.

Clearly there is no market for sale of these shares.
Therefore the only likely buyer will be someone who does not in fact fully appreciate the repercussions of either buying the shares or accepting them as a gift.
There have been suggestions of donating the shares to eg a homeless person.
I have previously objected to this as I don't believe any person who is homeless is in charge of his/her life and therefore can't reasonably be expected to make objective decisions.

If you wave $1000 in front of an addict all they will see is their next fix.
They won't even hear you tell them about the details of the present you are so kindly offering them.

Simply trading is in effect suckering someone else more legal. Have you ever bought heap of shares, for them to go down, so after a while you sell them and they continue to go down? Then you just suckered someone mate. With a click of a mouse in your ivory tower someone somewhere lost money from your transaction.

To call legitimate ordinary market transactions 'suckering' is simply silly.
You will never know what reasons any buyer or seller has for transacting that trade. Your profit taking can perfectly reasonably be someone else's bargain hunting.

No one I have spoken to regarding the sale/ purchase of shares would be prepared to sell, donate, inflict, gift, leave in a will or estate,trade or Auction these bloody things without first disclosing the full impact of their actions and its consequence.
Something most of us retail investors have not had the privilage of.

Yes, you did have that privilege, as you describe it. We've been over and over this. The information was out there. You simply didn't access it.

FACT!

There is always in western capitalism someone prepared to make a living out of someone elses miss-fortune or situation.

That is sadly entirely true.

This may be a bank offering to lend a person with a poor credit history a very high interest Home Loan

Well, if a bank makes a habit of lending to people with poor credit histories then they won't be in business for very long so you can hardly say they are making a viable living out of so doing.

or A Pawn broker buying the Family air loom for a song.

I don't know much about pawnbrokers but don't they hold the dreaded family heirloom for a given period before selling it, giving the person who pawned such a treasure a chance to get it back? Whatever, I don't see that there is any deception involved. Both parties are clear about what is being offered and sought. Hardly furthers the argument imo.

Dont come on here spouting morals, wrongs and rights. Desperate people will do desperate things. Check out the people or companies that put them in that situation.

Again, you are suggesting Macquarie, Brisconnections or whomever acted without full disclosure. That is simply not right. Apart from Comsec apparently failing to denote on their final Buy screen that the share was partly paid, no one has come up with any genuine lack of disclosure.
If I've missed it, then I'm more than happy to be corrected.

Do not sit and judge on pure speculation

On the contrary, Sunder is, as far as I can see, making his comments not on speculation but on the facts as far as they are known at this stage.

ShaunQ

I think our Mr Sunder just Trolls around for debate.
take no Notice

If that were the case I expect we'd be seeing Sunder agitating on all sorts of other threads. I haven't seen this.
But for sure, Sunder has made himself unpopular with BCSCA investors because he has failed to offer sugar coated sympathy but has rather taken an objective view of what has happened.

That said, I'm immensely sorry for anyone who has been caught up in this.
To have a punt of a few hundred dollars and find oneself owing tens of thousands or more should not have been possible, regardless of whether the punter carried out full investigations.
Hopefully the regulators will in future ensure that a signed document of understanding of further payments to be made will have to precede any share purchase of this nature.

 

[shaunQ]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Hi Julia, yes, I remember it when it all started. I agree its been over, and I only replied as I felt a different opinion was needed than was being given. I agree its probably best for a different forum about ethics and trading.

If you wave $1000 in front of an addict all they will see is their next fix. They won't even hear you tell them about the details of the present you are so kindly offering them.

You will never know what reasons any buyer or seller has for transacting that trade. Your profit taking can perfectly reasonably be someone else's bargain hunting.

Doesn't this contradict. I don't condone drug use or sales of shares to them, but many buyers never heard about their little present either. Perhaps MacBank thought that too, after all, these people grabbed a "bargain" didn't they?

Is it moral to either offload the debt to someone else who is unaware of it

Again, I don't think anyone has seriously mentioned someone not being aware.

I think legally it would depend on the circumstances. If it was obviously an attempt to avoid the debt onto someone whom they should have reasonably known would have no chance, then it may be a problem. And also how fair and transparent the transaction was for both parties, like if solicitors were involved.

Legal trickery? I guess is better than Illegal trickery.

 

[thermalmonster]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

So Julia, What will you label my $26,000 debt to Mac Bank as?

Its not a loan
Its not a credit agreement


Do you not think it is responsible for the seller of these shares to vet who they are selling them to? or at least ask the question Can you repay the debt that you will incur

My point was that this IS on a Par with irresponsible lending.

As for the information being out there, we have discussed this to death also.
It depends what you read. I have seen several anoncements that class them as FPO.

Either way I shall sit this out and see what pans out.

Very worse case scenario there is always the Plane home!

 

[brty]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder,

You did not answer the question about any other way anywhere, where you could accumulate this type of debt whilst being uninformed and unable to pay.(and become indebted with a couple of clicks of a mouse).

Perhaps the reason is that there is nothing else, which makes this situation unique.

brty

 

[Julia]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

So Julia, What will you label my $26,000 debt to Mac Bank as?

Its not a loan
Its not a credit agreement


Do you not think it is responsible for the seller of these shares to vet who they are selling them to? or at least ask the question Can you repay the debt that you will incur

My point was that this IS on a Par with irresponsible lending.

As for the information being out there, we have discussed this to death also.
It depends what you read. I have seen several anoncements that class them as FPO.

Either way I shall sit this out and see what pans out.

Very worse case scenario there is always the Plane home!

Thermalmonster, sorry, but I've really nothing further to add.
Maybe read the final paragraph of my last post.
Good luck.

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder,

You did not answer the question about any other way anywhere, where you could accumulate this type of debt whilst being uninformed and unable to pay.(and become indebted with a couple of clicks of a mouse).

Perhaps the reason is that there is nothing else, which makes this situation unique.

brty

I gave a reason why I wasn't going to answer that question though. Why are you so obsessed over it?

 

[brty]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder,

I gave a reason why I wasn't going to answer that question though

It is so important because it is the crux of the matter.

Sophisticated investors can get themselves into all sorts of trouble, but mum and dad type of investors are protected by all sorts of regulation. In this case they are not being protected.

brty

 

[Calliope]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

It is some time since I looked at this thread. Nothing has changed. T/monster has now made 83 posts looking for sympathy for his impulsive share transaction. How many different ways can you portray yourself as a victim?

He is the victim of his own cupidity. His only release from his impending debt is dependent on the mercy of those he blames for his troubles.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope, we get your point of view, you have had nothing constructive to add other than beating someone when they are down, and I mean, significantly down, TM knows he made a mistake, he is trying to think of anything that will help him, how about just forgetting this thread ever existed huh? I cant believe you have even counted the number of posts he has made.

 

[Calliope]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I cant believe you have even counted the number of posts he has made.

You're right. I didn't. It's on his posts. Join Date Dec 2008. Posts 83.

Everyone is entitled to their point of view on this forum, even if it means upsetting someone's sensibilities.

 

[shaunQ]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You're right. I didn't. It's on his posts. Join Date Dec 2008. Posts 83. Everyone is entitled to their point of view on this forum, even if it means upsetting someone's sensibilities.

Good for you Calliope, some people are hesitant to appear like a wanker on these forums, good to see your always willing to kick sand in peoples faces while their down.

TM has never asked for sympathy, although some nicer people have offered it. I doubt he wants your sympathy. So what exactly is your point?

Do you go up to homeless people on the street and say, ha, look at you - sucked in - spent all your money on drugs... ha ha. Should have listened at school.. ha ha. Do you walk away proud?

 

[Calliope]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

TM has never asked for sympathy, although some nicer people have offered it. I doubt he wants your sympathy. So what exactly is your point?

My point is;

Why should I have to justify myself to you for having a differing point of view to you?

 

[shaunQ]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

My point is;

Why should I have to justify myself to you for having a differing point of view to you?

You don't need to as you can never justify kicking someone while there down, regardless of whether your right or wrong, its just mean. You had no point of view - you just attacked him. You offered no ideas, thoughts, suggestions or anything.. you just tried to humiliate him.

If you don't want to bring anything constructive to the forum... why are you here?

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You're right. I didn't. It's on his posts. Join Date Dec 2008. Posts 83.

Everyone is entitled to their point of view on this forum, even if it means upsetting someone's sensibilities.

Assuming of course this is the only thread he has posted in.

You have expressed your point of view very very clearly, on numerous occasions. It has just gone way past the 'silly boy for doing that' time. I just can't see why you keep coming into this thread if not to gloat. And given the situation, I guess I think that sucks.

 

[Enzyme]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Here is a new news article:

Peering deep into a long, dark tunnel

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I do hope they can find a legit and moral way to dispose of their liability.

I am astounded that bcsca is still sitting there every day available for any potentially uneducated online trader to fall into. Does anyone know if Commsec have decided to put some sort of warning prior to these being traded online?

I also hope there will be some tightening up of the rules to prevent people from unknowingly purchasing sophisticated shares such as these in the future.

You don't have to be a share market expert to open an online trading account to trade normal shares, however these shares are far from normal. I think it would be much safer if there were adequate educational requirements prior to gaining approval for trading these types of instalment shares (as there are with derivatives) in the future.

 

[Rastan]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Here is a new news article:

Peering deep into a long, dark tunnel

I wonder if the guy they mentioned as the biggest shareholder, Nick Bolton (26yo who runs an IT company), wouldn't mind helping all the small time people who got burnt and add to his existing $47.6 mil debt?

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I wonder if the guy they mentioned as the biggest shareholder, Nick Bolton (26yo who runs an IT company), wouldn't mind helping all the small time people who got burnt and add to his existing $47.6 mil debt?

I suspect there are all sorts of possibilities being explored. Any suggestions that they will resort to an illegal or immoral solution can only be an assumption at this stage especially without knowing the facts.

That said, I have no idea what plans they might be working on, but let's not write them off with assumptions...

 

[Calliope]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You offered no ideas, thoughts, suggestions or anything.
If you don't want to bring anything constructive to the forum... why are you here?

And you have:headshake

Obviously we are of different generations. Once it was considered healthy for people to accept responsibility for their own actions. In this new "enlightened' age someone who gets into trouble as a result of their own ill-considered actions is regarded as a victim to be treated with sympathy.

And, of course, if you have a victim you must have a villain. In this case Macquarie makes a perfect villain.

And it doesn't matter how many warning signs are posted. Some people will ignore them. You see them on the beach every day.