BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

Sunder · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

sails said:
LOL ... Just because they may be working quietly on a solution doesn't necessarily imply it's shifty...

Why worry Sunder? - if it's shifty, it probably won't work anyway ...

Not worried, curious.

And if it is shifty, wouldn't we as a forum be better off doing the respondants a service by warning them ahead of time, rather than letting them get busted, and face legal action on top of their existing problems?

sails · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
Not worried, curious.

And if it is shifty, wouldn't we as a forum be better off doing the respondants a service by warning them ahead of time, rather than letting them get busted, and face legal action on top of their existing problems?

If this was a lawyer's forum, may be so - but even then they would more than likely be given differing advice. But the views of faceless people with funny nicks from all sorts of backgrounds may not actually help them in legal terms.

I don't hold any of these shares, so I'm not privy to their discussions and have no need to be. I sincerely hope they can find a legit way to sort this mess out. I hope they are getting good advice.

LOL, now I'm curious why you are so curious. Unless this affects you in some way, why would you be so curious to know the details?

Sunder · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

sails said:
LOL, now I'm curious why you are so curious. Unless this affects you in some way, why would you be so curious to know the details?

Maybe it's that childish "I know something you don't know!" attitude! Nah.

I'm not going to lay awake at night wondering, but I am finding it very interesting the different schemes people have come up with, all with a degree of immorality or illegality, and now someone thinks they have a workable solution, I'm just curious what it is.

sails · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
Maybe it's that childish "I know something you don't know!" attitude! Nah.

I'm not going to lay awake at night wondering, but I am finding it very interesting the different schemes people have come up with, all with a degree of immorality or illegality, and now someone thinks they have a workable solution, I'm just curious what it is.

I guess all will be revealed in it's due course. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out...

shaunQ · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
but I am finding it very interesting the different schemes people have come up with, all with a degree of immorality or illegality

So Macquarie Bank sells them openly on the market to unsuspecting small-time investors... thats ok.. but if they now try and pass the buck... its immoral? No its not. Its survival. Doing what you need to do to protect yourself or your family is not and can never be immoral, because the principal is just.

Its like stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family. Buyer Beware is there for a reason - no one should feel hesitant or guilty for passing these shares on if they can.

Julia · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

shaunQ said:
Its survival. Doing what you need to do to protect yourself or your family is not and can never be immoral, because the principal is just.

I find that an unreasonably broad statement, and essentially disagree.

thermalmonster · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I dont blame anyone for not wishing to announce their private affairs on the Forum.
They have done so in the past and got ridiculed for it.

Yes some of the Ideas that have been tossed around the place May seem a little immoral to those who preach from the high ground. However if I had 5 million of debt to inflict on my family I would certainly be considering the options.

shaunQ · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:
I find that an unreasonably broad statement, and essentially disagree.

As is your right! But to clarify, If someone was to buy these shares, with the deliberate intention of ripping someone else off and profiting from it... um, possibly like Mac Bank did, then it would be immoral.

However if you have been caught, or swindled yourself into this, and it comes down to protecting your family - I think its very harsh, for people not effected, to be commenting on what is, and isn't "moral".

I completely agree that suggestions like, find a drunk, etc (not my suggestion!) are awful, but I think the intention was for it to be done with the person fully aware. So if a person is willing, surely its essentially a win-win situation and really its the heart of capitalism?

People say the market is about finding someone more stupid than you? So, thats not immoral??

Sunder · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

shaunQ said:
So Macquarie Bank sells them openly on the market to unsuspecting small-time investors... thats ok.. but if they now try and pass the buck... its immoral? No its not. Its survival. Doing what you need to do to protect yourself or your family is not and can never be immoral, because the principal is just.

Its like stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family. Buyer Beware is there for a reason - no one should feel hesitant or guilty for passing these shares on if they can.

By your reasoning, someone who didn't realise smoking was bad for their lungs, or drinking was bad for their liver, should feel free to kidnap a suitable donor and steal their organs? After all, it's you and your family you're protecting, who cares about the victim? They shouldn't have been walking around late at night hey?

If you can find someone foolish enough to take the shares with no intentional deceit, go ahead. That's fine. At the very least you're on par with Macquarie Bank, but I think quite a bit worse. At least Macquarie sold them with full disclosure on an open market, while they still had value. (Meaning the buyers were not buying into massive debt)

But to fool someone intentionally into taking them, or to use loopholes in the law to quasi-legally offload your obligation, is not comparable with a company that performed an IPO meeting every legal and moral obligation. It just doesn't compare.

Edit: Let me ask you a question. You seem to be affected. How would you feel if the person who sold it to you, knew full well that you were buying into $1m or whatever of debt. You'd feel... pretty much like you feel now, right? Yet you want to push that off onto someone else - by intentional deceit, rather than just letting ignorance let people make mistakes??

thermalmonster · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I think your missing the point some what sunder

Sunder · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

thermalmonster said:
I think your missing the point some what sunder

I could be, or those suffering could be missing the point. We've blurred lines in this discussion between "I'd break any law and do anything immoral to get rid of these shares" and "I got suckered, if I can sucker someone else legally, I will".

It appears to me Shaun is closer to the first camp than the second. He fails to see the irony that he thinks Macquarie, who has done everything legally, and arguably morally, as a reprehensible entity, yet seems to believe it's fully justified to break the law and act deceptively and immorally, because it's him that will be impacted?

Does nobody else see the irony?

shaunQ · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

thermalmonster said:
I think your missing the point some what sunder

Somewhat!... And no I'm not involved Sunder.

shaunQ · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
I could be, or those suffering could be missing the point. We've blurred lines in this discussion between "I'd break any law and do anything immoral to get rid of these shares" and "I got suckered, if I can sucker someone else legally, I will".

Look I'm just defending the right for people to trade these if they choose, however the choose. Please don't put quotes around things like "I'd break any law" implying that someone has said anything of the sort.

I clearly said that all people would need to be properly informed. And if so, what else do you want? Simply trading is in effect suckering someone else more legal. Have you ever bought heap of shares, for them to go down, so after a while you sell them and they continue to go down? Then you just suckered someone mate. With a click of a mouse in your ivory tower someone somewhere lost money from your transaction.

thermalmonster · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

No one I have spoken to regarding the sale/ purchase of shares would be prepared to sell, donate, inflict, gift, leave in a will or estate,trade or Auction these bloody things without first disclosing the full impact of their actions and its consequence.
Something most of us retail investors have not had the privilage of.

FACT!

There is always in western capitalism someone prepared to make a living out of someone elses miss-fortune or situation.

This may be a bank offering to lend a person with a poor credit history a very high interest Home Loan or A Pawn broker buying the Family air loom for a song.
Supply & Demand.

I expect sunder that there are folk out there with much more business acumen than you or I who have the foresight to make a few quid out of this predicament quite legaly with no hesitation, regret or misconception.

Good luck to them & good luck to anyone who may have found a legit way out.

Dont come on here spouting morals, wrongs and rights. Desperate people will do desperate things. Check out the people or companies that put them in that situation.
Do not sit and judge on pure speculation

thermalmonster · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

ShaunQ

I think our Mr Sunder just Trolls around for debate.
take no Notice

joeyjoejoe · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

i hope that for every1 on here you get out of this nightmare havent learnt your lesson and not have to lose a cent more than you orginally outlayed for the shares..

id like to see some1 buy up all the shares who is for example.... at the end of their life, no money/assets or family and is happy to give this great gift to so many people before they go....

and for example buy all the shares on market...

i know my broker comsec i had direct debit. ive never a problem putting through transactions of any amount.. nobody checks my bank account to make sure the money is in there.. if they are purchased and the person is no longer with us.. what happends there..

or someting similar.. or maybe we could have two people

1) the fall guy (hero)
2) rich saviour to fund the purchase by donating $100,000

and or some mixture of the two.. or all the brisconnect shareholders pooling together 100k to fund the purchase by one individual who will willingly and knowingly purchase them all

thermalmonster · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

For Anyone Still Trapped by the BCSCA Fiasco Please PM me.

" We dont sell shares to Park Benchers"

In all seriousness If you have a share Problem & no one else can save you then you should PM the A team

We have a possible solution.

Sleep easy

brty · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder,

Can you name one other thing that it is possible to spend $500 on, and inherit a $1,000,000 debt, and by only clicking a mouse 3 or 4 times in the process (in other words something that my 4 year old could land me into if I left the computer and went to the dunny).

Just one thing anywhere in the world.

You can't do it selling options (you have to put up margin), nor commodities (margin again). You can't do it in realestate as you need to sign, and then often there is a cooling off period.

One thing Maquarie has not done here is maintain a market for the issue. They created this debacle and are not supporting it, meaning to me that they knew they sold a pup. That is morally wrong and possibly legally wrong. Time and court action is where this is heading.

brty

thermalmonster · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Hey Joey

Are you sudgesting that someone you know is on their death bed with a comsec account?

Just make sure you are not the first benificary if they press the buy button.

Oh and for christ sake dont tell Sunder

Sunder · 27 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

shaunQ said:
Look I'm just defending the right for people to trade these if they choose, however the choose. Please don't put quotes around things like "I'd break any law" implying that someone has said anything of the sort.

So tell us where you really stand.

I've told you where I stand. Do it legally - full disclosure off market, or a normal on market transaction.

You've told us where you stand to a degree: Transfering to a willing drunk is a conspiracy to defraud - a judge can likely reverse that transaction ruling it solely for the purpose of avoiding liability, and an fraudulent action. Although I can't guarantee that - nobody can until a judge forms a precedent - I have seen MANY cases where a judge has reversed a fully legal CIVIL transaction, ruling that it was only for fraudulent (criminal) purposes.

You see it time after time - A husband selling a $10 million dollar property to his wife for $1, just weeks before the administrators come in. Judge allows administrators access to it. A company is created solely for the purpose of racking up debt, and then paying out the proprietor. Judge allows creditors to sue the proprietor for the full amount. I strongly suspect this "legal but awful" transaction of selling to willing drunks, is actually going to be ruled illegal if it ever came to court.

So already, you've been endorsing what will most likely be ruled an illegal transaction. So... Where do you really stand? Is it ignorance of the law, or are you really actively accepting criminal fraud as "amoral" because it's your family at stake?

Back to the topic at hand, this is why I was so curious about what Dondi had in mind - so many of these "legal" transactions, are legal within the context of civil transactions, but in the context of criminal law, is fraudulent and illegal.

BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

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thermalmonster

shaunQ

Sunder

thermalmonster

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shaunQ

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thermalmonster

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joeyjoejoe

thermalmonster

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