Barack Obama!

[Doris]

Re: Barack 2008!

Its just that as Wayne has also stated, we hear all this crap about american politics, when they havnt even decided who is going to be running for each party yet, so why does it even matter at this stage?

Do you think the US or other countries recieve daily updates on Aus politics?

I really think you need to think! Below the surface.
What are the repercussions for you on a micro scale from the macro outlined? Think about the issues already presented!
Don't just watch the soap opera. Examine the plot and the themes. At least you're tuned in.

Australia is the best country in the world in which to live but it is a minnow. Our impact on the world is tourist and resource related!
We are not a power force nor predatory, so why should the world care about our politics? We're a quaint little country 'down there'.
Yes 2020... Reminds me of Bush telling us at APEC (OPEC?) how Howard had visited the Austrian troups in Iraq the week before.

I've liked all the major Democrat candidates.

Can you imagine letting Huckabee loose as a final contender?
The final selection is who they get to choose from! The choice is narrowed to specific characters and policies.
The chaff is sifted from the hay.
The cream has risen to the top... and the choices are not all rancid.
IMO only one rises to cater for all that one dares to hope will clean up the mess in most of the deleterious issues.

The cynicism about the Commander in Chief being a figurehead is ignorance especially after 2020's expose on the role.

The source of the money paying for advertising and general campaign expenses is directly related to paybacks!
Obama is the only candidate NOT a prospective puppet.
He is the change that would see democracy-- a representation of the populous, not the lobbyists.
We cannot vote but we can hope!

Probably the main reason I have a little interest is I'd like to see a US president doing more about his/her own economy and being less of an international policeman.

Surely whoever the next president is out of the two or three left in the running, things can only get better from here can't it?

Exactly the point! At last a leader in the post WWII era who will focus on this core goal. Help has too often been incidental to vested interests rather than a transparent policing role. Individual American philanthropists have done more IMO for world aid then their government... Ted Turner, Bill Gates et al.

I realize it's probably conspiracy theorism, but perhaps it's all designed to get the rest of the west to follow the US by becoming emotionally involved in their internal affairs.

They need to clean up their own backyard instead of diluting the efficacy of their grass roots by poorly thought through efforts elsewhere. If each family is functional then the neighbourhood is also. World health begins with the health of the individuals en masse.
Each grain of sand contributes to the beach.

lock the shutters
raise the drawbidge
Aussies only interested in Aus from now on

Unfortunately too many have had their heads in the sand and hence the current pride and adulation that at last they are inspired to look around and want to get what they want. And maybe we may benefit as the figurative pollution clears.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Barack 2008!

The old reductive fallacy trick, eh?

A favourite of yours?

I could say
what a load of :bs:
but I won't.


PS prawn isn't interested in the next US president
because ?
he doesn't vote over there
No need to lecture those of us who do find it both interesting and potentially extremely relevant btw.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Barack 2008!

PS prawn, There have been other threads that looked into the impact and speculate on how the (midterm then) US election might affect (or effect if you prefer) the stock market.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87972&highlight=elections#post87972

I think the general concensus was probably that there would be no real difference between Democrats or Republicans in that regard - eg this reply by billhill. - Much like no real difference between Labor and Libs here in Aus

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=88012&highlight=elections#post88012

 

[wayneL]

Re: Barack 2008!

I could say
what a load of :bs:
but I won't.

That's good, because if you did, you would be indulging in yet another logical fallacy (perhaps argument by pigheadedness?) and look foolish.

Cheers

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Barack 2008!

Its all hypothetical, McCain will hammer whoever gets up for the Democrats. good on him.

What is a reductive fallacy?

gg

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Barack 2008!

One little anecdote of how the US presidencey can affect us.
Back in 1963 Kennedy was assassinated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy

It remains a point of controversy among historians whether or not Vietnam would have escalated to the point it did had Kennedy served out his full term and possibly been re-elected in 1964.[23] Fueling this speculation are statements made by Kennedy's and Johnson's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara that Kennedy was strongly considering pulling out of Vietnam after the 1964 election. In the film "The Fog of War", not only does McNamara say this, but a tape recording of Lyndon Johnson confirms that Kennedy was planning to withdraw from Vietnam, a position Johnson states he disapproved of.[24] Additional evidence is Kennedy's National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) #263 on October 11, 1963 that gave the order for withdrawal of 1,000 military personnel by the end of 1963. Nevertheless, given the stated reason for the overthrow of the Diem government, such action would have been a dramatic policy reversal, but Kennedy was generally moving in a less hawkish direction in the Cold War since his acclaimed speech about World Peace at American University the previous June 10, 1963.

After Kennedy's assassination, new President Lyndon B. Johnson immediately reversed his predecessor's order to withdraw 1,000 military personnel by the end of 1963 with his own NSAM #273 on November 26, 1963.

You mightn't have been living in Aus then Wayne - but this egghead LBJ then came to Aus, and we were told to wave US flags and carry on like idiots, to shouts of "all the way with LBJ". Next thing Vietnam is totally out of control - and we'd followed an idiot.

Not too dissimilar to the last invasion of Iraq in some respects.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Barack 2008!

Its all hypothetical, McCain will hammer whoever gets up for the Democrats. good on him.

What is a reductive fallacy?

gg

lol
that's Wayne's way of obfuscating an argument gg

ob·fus·cate –verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing. 1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Barack 2008!

What is a reductive fallacy?

gg

"Over-simplifying. As Einstein said, everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. Political slogans such as "Taxation is theft" fall in this category."

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Barack 2008!

Its all hypothetical, McCain will hammer whoever gets up for the Democrats. good on him.

What is a reductive fallacy?

gg

Economics is one giant one.

Reductio ad absurdum ad inifinitum... I think..

 

[Doris]

Re: Barack 2008!

Tally Update

Obama is ahead of Clinton in count of delegates who will formally anoint the nominee, with 1,384 delegates to her 1,279.

To reach the target 2025:

# 641 are needed for victory for Obama.
# 746 needed by Hillary.

* Obama has a 48 to 42 percent advantage over Hillary in Texas.

* In Ohio, Clinton is ahead of Obama by just 44 to 42 percent, a lead within the poll's margin of error, making the race too close to call.


John McCain is already anticipating a White House match-up with Obama, as he was poised to eliminate former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee and clinch the Republican nomination on Wednesday our time.


In the most explosive moment yet of the Democratic race, Clinton debuted a negative television ad, dripping with Cold War-style menace, suggesting Obama would be found wanting in a dead-of-night foreign policy crisis.

In the poignant Clinton ad, a telephone rings insistently over dreamy shots of young children sleeping soundly in their beds.

"It's 3:00 am and your children are safe and asleep. But there's a phone in the White House and it's ringing," the male narrator says.

"Something's happening in the world. Your vote will decide who answers that call."

The final shot of a business-like Clinton cradling the phone, suggested that only she could keep peril at bay.


Within hours, the Obama camp had cut their own spot, saying Senator Clinton was wrong in voting to authorize war in Iraq, deepening a row more reminiscent of a Republican general election tactic than a Democratic primary skirmish.

"We've seen these ads before. They're usually the kind that play upon people's fears and try to scare our votes," Obama told a rally in Texas.

"The question is, what kind of judgment will you exercise when you pick up that phone? In fact, we have had a red phone moment. It was the decision to invade Iraq," he said.

His response ad used the same cutesy images of sleeping children, but with a different message.

"Something's happening in the world. When that call gets answered, shouldn't the president be the one, the only one, who had judgment and courage to oppose the Iraq war from the start?" the ad asks.

"In a dangerous world, it's judgment that matters."



In a valuable boost to Obama, Senator Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, endorsed his colleague.

"What matters most in the Oval Office is sound judgment and decisive action. It's about getting it right on crucial national security questions the first time -- and every time."

"The indisputable fact is Barack Obama was right about Iraq when many of us were wrong. It was a tough call, and the single greatest national security question, and mistake of our time."

 

[Doris]

Re: Barack 2008!

"Over-simplifying. As Einstein said, everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. Political slogans such as "Taxation is theft" fall in this category."

I wonder if you can direct your thoughts to an objective critique.
If the election is of no interest to you why do you keep reiterating this?

If you have a constructive critique please focus on specifics instead of belligerent innuendo?
This is reminiscent of my testosterone infested 14 year olds. Ready... fire... aim!

Your amygdala is over-riding your frontal lobes which suggests you are under 25...?? (This is why car insurance is higher for this age)

If you look for positives you will feel positive and be a happier person.
Negativism as a sport increases your cholesterol and hypertension. I fear for you.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Barack 2008!

I wonder if you can direct your thoughts to an objective critique.
If the election is of no interest to you why do you keep reiterating this?

If you have a constructive critique please focus on specifics instead of belligerent innuendo?
This is reminiscent of my testosterone infested 14 year olds. Ready... fire... aim!

Your amygdala is over-riding your frontal lobes which suggests you are under 25...?? (This is why car insurance is higher for this age)

If you look for positives you will feel positive and be a happier person.
Negativism as a sport increases your cholesterol and hypertension. I fear for you.

Oh my Doris,

If you were paying attention, Garpal asked a question, my post you quoted was merely an answer to that. In fact, it was quoted from somewhere else.

As to your amateur psych analysis, you are so far off the mark, it is actually funny. In fact you are hoist by your own petard, in that you have gone all ad hominem.

Why do I keep coming back here to this thread? It is as a moderator, to ensure the excessive propaganda is somewhat tempered with some balance and healthy cynicism.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Barack 2008!

lol
that's Wayne's way of obfuscating an argument gg

Once again, you have the wrong end of the stick. Obfuscation implies or obscure argument. Logical fallacies are not obscure even if one has not yet been introduced to these terms. However the act of logical fallacy is used every day in practice. You use many of them quite frequently.

Sorry 2020, your still rolling them in the gutter.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Barack 2008!

Wayne I prefer the candidness of this post of yours from "Is America Bankrupt" thread..

including the Patriot Act (something else we've copied in part at least)
why we should take an interest

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19353&highlight=patriot#post19353

Just a bit of good humoured and pedantic one upmanship LOL:


I can empathise withyour point of few. Many countries suck more than the US.

But what do these countries say they represent? What are their stated objectives and ideals? If they say "this" and do "that", they lose respect. Just like so many soviet bloc countries did. It led to their downfall. A society cannot live a lie any more than an individual.

Yes there is a lot of blind America bashing. But is it blind, or do they see the astonishing hypocricy and blatant double standards?

America proclaims equal opportunity, freedom, justice, democracy.....all the good things.

All the while American society is living up to the above ideals less and less, whilst shouting the words louder and louder!

....they're jealous of our freedom (belch!).... Oh by the way we've just passed the PATRIOT act, we can detain you indefinately without legal representation....and have a look at our new principles of eminent domain!

I could rant on ad nauseum about such contradictions.

It makes me puke with revulsion that a country that began and for a long time, upheld noble ideals(so long as you weren't native or black ), only to drop them with the apparent complicity of the citizenry.

The real tragedy? We're following suit, so is the UK.

I truly love the highest version of American culture, who they say they want to be. Unfortunately, at present, they just aren't living up to it.

My ran.....er....view.
Cheers

 

[wayneL]

Re: Barack 2008!

That still doesn't say why Democratic Party candidacy contests are of more than a passing interest to non-Americans. As I've maintained, when we get to the real game, (ie the actual presidency) I'll be more interested.

Until then, I wanna know about what that 15 minutes of BS per night is replacing in relevant (to me) news.

At least the news is now starting to look past the hysteria, euphoria, and unachievable rhetoric. That's something. But I'm really more interested in how Vince Cable has Crash Gordon dangling on the end of a skewer. I want to know what Boy Wonder Cameron is doing to get the bastard consigned the ranks of has been unelected PMs.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Barack 2008!

To each his own then.:bier:
btw, I'm not spending 15 minutes a day listening to them (unless I'm captive audience in car driving to or from)
But I'm still interested.
And I'm responding to people arguing that we shouldn'e be interested in observing the candidates for the most powerful position in the world.
And that's despite the fact that I don't vote for them as prawn would argue.

I probably wish I knew more about McCaine. Some of his outbursts recorded on the internet suggest he's a real loose cannon - seriously superstititious to the point of absolute stupidity ( no way could I vote for someone that goes into a great tissie because he can't find his rabbit's foot or his lucky feather whatever) , and subject to incredible rudeness (comments about why the Clinton's daughter is ugly :bad . Just the man you need for the diplomatic tightrope we have to deal with - Bush's legacy.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the topic of "Waterloo", one involving British politics ( Vince Gable as you say)

....... the other involving the US hawks who have done their best to take the world into a mess out of which they/we are unlikely to crawl in the foreseeable future.
Waterloo A toe-tapping tribute to Dubya's legacy

 

[noirua]

Re: Barack 2008!

Hi Doris, you'r doing a great job banging the drum for Obama. Will be interesting to see if he has the ability to keep it going as it's far more difficult when you'r out there in front.

 

[Doris]

Re: Barack 2008!

Its all hypothetical, McCain will hammer whoever gets up for the Democrats. good on him.
gg

And would you like to see a cat and dog brawl between Hillary and McCain?

... or a snarling bully making vicious, erroneous attacks on a cool confident decisive nice guy?

My bet is that this will this continue to make GOP members defect to the Democrats!

 

[Doris]

Re: Barack 2008!

Oh my Doris,

If you were paying attention, Garpal asked a question, my post you quoted was merely an answer to that. In fact, it was quoted from somewhere else.

Why do I keep coming back here to this thread? It is as a moderator, to ensure the excessive propaganda is somewhat tempered with some balance and healthy cynicism.

I realize that wayneL... but the buzzing of the fly finally could not be ignored.

The quote was simply to indicate whom I was admonishing.

You purport to offer healthy cynicism when really you have very rarely thought out your off the cuff remarks which appear to me to be like a schoolyard bully rather than a debater who has prepared his attack. It is not healthy to continually denigrate and insult merely for sport. This is Hillary's and McCain's style. I feel uncomfortable with people who conduct themselves without dignity. I choose not to associate with people of this calibre in my private life. I walk away and allow them to be who they choose to be without my life being tarnished by their toxic personalities.

I have endeavoured to elucidate so that others who may only read headlines can see the depth of the man who very few had heard about when I started this thread. This has never been propaganda. You insult by shallow choice and it is not dignified. I challenge you to identify anything that has been false, distorted or misleading.

My attitude is to justify my decision, in December 2006, that Barack's life has groomed him to be one of the most brilliant leaders in history.

A decision is made when consequences have been analysed and evaluated.
A choice is stabbing a pin onto a list. And sometimes this is a pain for others!

 

[wayneL]

Re: Barack 2008!

I realize that wayneL... but the buzzing of the fly finally could not be ignored.

The quote was simply to indicate whom I was admonishing.

You purport to offer healthy cynicism when really you have very rarely thought out your off the cuff remarks which appear to me to be like a schoolyard bully rather than a debater who has prepared his attack. It is not healthy to continually denigrate and insult merely for sport. This is Hillary's and McCain's style. I feel uncomfortable with people who conduct themselves without dignity. I choose not to associate with people of this calibre in my private life. I walk away and allow them to be who they choose to be without my life being tarnished by their toxic personalities.

I have endeavoured to elucidate so that others who may only read headlines can see the depth of the man who very few had heard about when I started this thread. This has never been propaganda. You insult by shallow choice and it is not dignified. I challenge you to identify anything that has been false, distorted or misleading.

My attitude is to justify my decision, in December 2006, that Barack's life has groomed him to be one of the most brilliant leaders in history.

A decision is made when consequences have been analysed and evaluated.
A choice is stabbing a pin onto a list. And sometimes this is a pain for others!

Doris,

This man may one day be one of the greatest leaders in history. If so, I will readily dip my lid to his achievements, should they materialize.

But I must say, until that stage, the above is absolute nonsense. Forgive me for saying that I've heard it all before and sans any evidence of greatness thus far, I'd have to say you are having trouble separating rhetoric from reality. You are clearly infatuated with the man, and this is causing you to suffer from fuzzy thinking. I mean check back on this thread and dispassionately observe the amount of rhetoric you have posted here. It's sickening.

That said, if he's elected as president and as mentioned before, I hope he can do something good. I would much prefer him to McCain, and by a country mile. But he is human, and will suffer all the foibles that humans suffer.. even as president.

Let's just step back and see what he does.