Australia's submarine solution

[sptrawler]

The Canadians are freaking out that the US, UK and AS are doing this. The Canucks are in integral part of ABCA Armies and Five Eyes and arguably an even closer ally to the US than us. A lot of people will think they've been left out. I think they may have been part of the initial discussions on this but there's no way Trudeau would have joined this gang. Unless they painted the subs in rainbow colours perhaps...

I think it will give the uranium stocks another leg up.

 

[macca]

As posted on ASF Sep 1st in Scomo thread, someone must be reading here

<<I think we should lease some newish stuff from the USA or the UK, maybe a 10 year lease for their spare ships.

Much better than buying a Sub that runs on Diesel in 2050, what an idiot, probably won't even be able to buy diesel by then>>

 

[sptrawler]

I see France is upset, well let's not get too upset, they don't hold any punches when upsetting all and sundry. ?
Let's be honest, what has the French sub contractor done in the last 5 years?

French submarine deal with Australia was in troubled waters before AUKUS

The $40 billion contract was one of the largest military export deals in 2016

www.theweek.in

Emmanuel Macron has good reason to feel angry and deceived by Australia

Overnight, Paris has gone from viewing Australia as a friend and ally to a nation which can’t be trusted.

www.smh.com.au

History of delay

Despite the French protests, there had been indications of problems with the Attack submarine project for several years now. Australian media reports have indicated there were concerns in Canberra about extent of workshare given to Australian companies by Naval Group and delivery timelines and costs.

In January, media reports indicated the cost of the Attack submarine project had risen from Australian dollar 50 billion to nearly Australian dollar 89 billion (US $65 billion). While the first submarines were originally intended to enter service by the "early 2030s", in November 2018, vice admiral Michael Noonan, the chief of the Royal Australian Navy, admitted the first ship may not be operational until 2035.

The last submarine would have entered service by 2050, according to the delayed timeline. The delays had raised concern about the relevance of the new ships, particularly given the continuing growth of China's navy and also Beijing's development of unmanned underwater vessels

Ever since news of delays in the submarine project surfaced, Australian politicians and analysts had called for Canberra to junk the deal and examine buying nuclear submarines from the US.

According to the US Congressional Research Service report on China's naval modernisation in September, as of 2020, China had 46 diesel-electric submarines, six nuclear-attack submarines and four nuclear submarines meant to carry nuclear-armed ballistic missiles. The Royal Australian Navy currently has a fleet of six 'Collins' class submarines that were inducted in the late 1990s and are based on a Swedish design. The delays in the Attack programme had led to calls to upgrade the Collins class submarines.

 

[Knobby22]

I see France is upset, well let's not get too upset, they don't hold any punches when upsetting all and sundry. ?
Let's be honest, what has the French sub contractor done in the last 5 years?

French submarine deal with Australia was in troubled waters before AUKUS

The $40 billion contract was one of the largest military export deals in 2016

www.theweek.in

Emmanuel Macron has good reason to feel angry and deceived by Australia

Overnight, Paris has gone from viewing Australia as a friend and ally to a nation which can’t be trusted.

www.smh.com.au

History of delay

Despite the French protests, there had been indications of problems with the Attack submarine project for several years now. Australian media reports have indicated there were concerns in Canberra about extent of workshare given to Australian companies by Naval Group and delivery timelines and costs.

In January, media reports indicated the cost of the Attack submarine project had risen from Australian dollar 50 billion to nearly Australian dollar 89 billion (US $65 billion). While the first submarines were originally intended to enter service by the "early 2030s", in November 2018, vice admiral Michael Noonan, the chief of the Royal Australian Navy, admitted the first ship may not be operational until 2035.

The last submarine would have entered service by 2050, according to the delayed timeline. The delays had raised concern about the relevance of the new ships, particularly given the continuing growth of China's navy and also Beijing's development of unmanned underwater vessels

Ever since news of delays in the submarine project surfaced, Australian politicians and analysts had called for Canberra to junk the deal and examine buying nuclear submarines from the US.

According to the US Congressional Research Service report on China's naval modernisation in September, as of 2020, China had 46 diesel-electric submarines, six nuclear-attack submarines and four nuclear submarines meant to carry nuclear-armed ballistic missiles. The Royal Australian Navy currently has a fleet of six 'Collins' class submarines that were inducted in the late 1990s and are based on a Swedish design. The delays in the Attack programme had led to calls to upgrade the Collins class submarines.

I heard on the ABC from one of the generals that they still have the plans to upgrade Collins Class. Also they are hoping to get the nuclear subs by 2035 which is as you posted when we would get our new French sub due to all the delays

 

[moXJO]

How far up US arse do we have to crawl. The US took advantage of China stopping trade with Australia. They came in and filled the void that we left. And a big part was that scomo decided to mouth off for the US, that had zero benefit for us.

Scomo is an Idiotic turd. All this does is put us in a worse position. We are the ones that will suffer the most for the US playing war games through Asia.

We lose more trade and guarantee that US fills more void.

 

[sptrawler]

How far up US arse do we have to crawl. The US took advantage of China stopping trade with Australia. They came in and filled the void that we left. And a big part was that scomo decided to mouth off for the US, that had zero benefit for us.

Scomo is an Idiotic turd. All this does is put us in a worse position. We are the ones that will suffer the most for the US playing war games through Asia.

We lose more trade and guarantee that US fills more void.

I guess being out here in the middle of nowhere, in a big country full of keenly sought raw materials, we have to be up someone's butt. ?
Until WW2 we were up the U.K's butt, from WW2 until the 1960's we were up the U.S and then Japan's butt, from the 1990's until present we have been up China's butt.
Now China has decided that it wants to expand its reach into the Indian and Pacific oceans, through Africa, the Philippines, Taiwan, New Guinea etc, we are looking for a butt to crawl up.
Nothing changes, just the butt, when you are the skinny kid on the block.?
Pretending that we are liked in the area, is just dreaming, someone once said Australia is the white trash of Asia, I think that is a commonly held belief.
Just my opinion.

 

[Knobby22]

How far up US arse do we have to crawl. The US took advantage of China stopping trade with Australia. They came in and filled the void that we left. And a big part was that scomo decided to mouth off for the US, that had zero benefit for us.

Scomo is an Idiotic turd. All this does is put us in a worse position. We are the ones that will suffer the most for the US playing war games through Asia.

We lose more trade and guarantee that US fills more void.

Pretty much what Paul Keating said. Especially about tying us to USA closer.
I don't think China is going to be nice to us anyway after we stupidly mouthed off a while back.
We need nuclear subs. Maybe we could have got them from France, who we have really pissed off. We pissed of Japan also but they seem to have forgiven us.

This pact ties Australia to any US military engagement against China

It amounts to dramatic loss of sovereignty, writes the former Australian prime minister.

www.theage.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

How far up US arse do we have to crawl. The US took advantage of China stopping trade with Australia. They came in and filled the void that we left. And a big part was that scomo decided to mouth off for the US, that had zero benefit for us.

Scomo is an Idiotic turd. All this does is put us in a worse position. We are the ones that will suffer the most for the US playing war games through Asia.

We lose more trade and guarantee that US fills more void.

Militarily speaking there is a limit to what a country of 20 million people can do against a country of 1 billion.

Waving the flag of Independance is fine except when it comes to the crunch.

Alliances are more safety, as far as I'm concerned the Yanks can have bases in the NT and FNQ if it's going to give C**** a headache and keep them away from us.

 

[sptrawler]

Pretty much what Paul Keating said. Especially about tying us to USA closer.
I don't think China is going to be nice to us anyway after we stupidly mouthed off a while back.
We need nuclear subs. Maybe we could have got them from France, who we have really pissed off. We pissed of Japan also but they seem to have forgiven us.

This pact ties Australia to any US military engagement against China

It amounts to dramatic loss of sovereignty, writes the former Australian prime minister.

www.theage.com.au

My guess is, if China's expansion plans could include a non military takeover of Australia, why wouldn't they? They can install the population and infrastructure to develop Australia's to its potential, all that stands between them and doing it is a small arrogant, self opinionated population. Not being nasty, but being realistic.
Going one step further, if China takes Taiwan, which looks extremely likely, why wouldn't they look South if we aren't aligned with someone and or having nothing but a vocal media to discourage them?

With regard France and upsetting them, when has France worried about anyone but themselves, just look at the crap France gave the U.K for leaving the EU and ask Greenpeace.

 

[Sean K]

Australia is pretty much completely defensive against any middle power or greater. That's why we need a significant asymmetrical deterrence like nuclear subs - and/or/plus the ANZUS treaty. This deal doesn't tie us any more to the US or UK, we have separate defence agreements that do that. This is just about getting the hardware to have our own deterrence stick. If an adversary does X, then XYZ is sent back.

I can not believe that they're going to take so long to get the first boats built and persisted with all built in Adelaide. It's going to take too long. A better plan may be to put an initial order in for the next 4 available Virginia Class boats (US is only building 2 per year) and in the mean time we develop our capability to build our own in SA. In the mean time we send engineering teams to Newport News for on the job training and start putting our own sub mariners on the US boats for training and experience. By the time the first boat is delivered by the US we could have an entire crew ready to go. Then, repeat.

These things are only $3-5b MOTS.

Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sptrawler]

I can not believe that they're going to take so long to get the first boats built and persisted with all built in Adelaide.

I'd go one step further and say, I don't believe their going to take so long.
Small bites, is the way forward IMO.

 

[IFocus]

I can not believe that they're going to take so long to get the first boats built and persisted with all built in Adelaide. It's going to take too long. A better plan may be to put an initial order in for the next 4 available Virginia Class boats (US is only building 2 per year) and in the mean time we develop our capability to build our own in SA. In the mean time we send engineering teams to Newport News for on the job training and start putting our own sub mariners on the US boats for training and experience. By the time the first boat is delivered by the US we could have an entire crew ready to go. Then, repeat.

These things are only $3-5b MOTS.

Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wonder why this isn't the case surely its not about politics, no military aircraft are built here are they?

 

[moXJO]

Couple of problems with subs. First off I'm not sure we can crew that many of them. You are out to sea in a hot cramped tin can. Personally if you want protection then build nukes if you don't mind an arms race. I don't trust the US in having our interest at heart. Or even its ability or stomach to protect us if it goes wrong.

In saying that, I doubt much of China's army would die for their government at the moment. However.... there's a reason Xi has decided to roll out a program to brainwash this generation of Chinese kids to love government and country. In the future China is definitely planning on some major expansion.

Scomo parading around like a golden buttplug is only enforcing our image as 'outsiders' in Asia.

 

[sptrawler]

Couple of problems with subs. First off I'm not sure we can crew that many of them. You are out to sea in a hot cramped tin can. Personally if you want protection then build nukes if you don't mind an arms race. I don't trust the US in having our interest at heart. Or even its ability or stomach to protect us if it goes wrong.

In saying that, I doubt much of China's army would die for their government at the moment. However.... there's a reason Xi has decided to roll out a program to brainwash this generation of Chinese kids to love government and country. In the future China is definitely planning on some major expansion.

Scomo parading around like a golden buttplug is only enforcing our image as 'outsiders' in Asia.

Yes piss drinking bogans clicking their fingers for another Bintang, is a much better image, as caring sharing neighbours.lol

 

[Smurf1976]

You are out to sea in a hot cramped tin can.

I've never been in the military but I've had a look on a couple of subs in the past. Proper ones albeit not actually going anywhere just docked.

They're not quite as cramped as I was expecting but there sure isn't much space inside.

It would need the right sort of person (mentally) to serve on board one I think. Might be alright at first but it would get to people after a while.

 

[moXJO]

Yes piss drinking bogans clicking their fingers for another Bintang, is a much better image, as caring sharing neighbours.lol

2 years and tourism is missing us.

 

[Knobby22]

2 years and tourism is missing us.

Yes, we are generally a lot nicer than some other countries tourists.

 

[SirRumpole]

I've never been in the military but I've had a look on a couple of subs in the past. Proper ones albeit not actually going anywhere just docked.

They're not quite as cramped as I was expecting but there sure isn't much space inside.

It would need the right sort of person (mentally) to serve on board one I think. Might be alright at first but it would get to people after a while.

I went on an Oberon class when I was a kid.

Hot, smelly and cramped. The smell of diesel oil was pervasive.

Of course you won't get that with nukes. I'm sure they do a lot to keep the environment friendly.

The idea of spending months underwater in cramped conditions doesn't appeal to me , but the Yanks seem to be able to find crews for their subs.

 

[IFocus]

Nuclear are much bigger and come complete with an ice cream machine in each one...true.

 

[sptrawler]

An article from 2019 on the French subs debacle.

Are Australia’s subs duds?

It looked like the deal of the century. Now the $50 billion Future Submarine contract is coming under intense scrutiny as costs mount and timelines balloon.

www.crikey.com.au