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Destruction of Australia's engineering and construction expertise

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SirRumpole said:
As a client the best way seems to be to get at least three quotes and pick the middle one.
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I find this a really interesting Psychology if no other metric comes into play.

Say I want to buy plane ticket to London.

Business (Most expensive)
Premium Economy (Middle)
Cattle class (Cheapest).

If your not able to see WHY prices differ then in my
view you are not making an informed decision.

Lets say your buying a veranda

One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($18000 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($16500 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($14500 +)

Do you take the middle?
 
tech/a said:
I find this a really interesting Psychology if no other metric comes into play.

Say I want to buy plane ticket to London.

Business (Most expensive)
Premium Economy (Middle)
Cattle class (Cheapest).

If your not able to see WHY prices differ then in my
view you are not making an informed decision.

Lets say your buying a veranda

One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($18000 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($16500 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($14500 +)

Do you take the middle?
Click to expand...

Well I was thinking of home renovation in general.

I specify what I want in terms of materials and fittings etc then get 3 quotes. Of course I would try to contact others who have used these people and see if I can find if they did a good job. Failing that I would think that the cheapest one would be likely to cut corners to get a lower price and the most expensive would be likely to either not want the job or was padding out his profits while the middle one would be most likely to do a reasonable job for the money.
 
tech/a said:
Do you take the middle?
Click to expand...
What I’d be focusing on is the contractor.

Can they do it and most importantly will they actually do it?

There’s plenty of tradies who can but not so many who actually will do a quality job to the customer’s requirements.
 
SirRumpole said:
Well I was thinking of home renovation in general.

I specify what I want in terms of materials and fittings etc then get 3 quotes. Of course I would try to contact others who have used these people and see if I can find if they did a good job. Failing that I would think that the cheapest one would be likely to cut corners to get a lower price and the most expensive would be likely to either not want the job or was padding out his profits while the middle one would be most likely to do a reasonable job for the money.
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Smurf1976 said:
What I’d be focusing on is the contractor.

Can they do it and most importantly will they actually do it?

There’s plenty of tradies who can but not so many who actually will do a quality job to the customer’s requirements.
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This is a really interesting reply SR
We have won many projects being the highest price which harks back to Smurf
Observation of reputation and perception of that.

There have been times when one of our suppliers offers distressed stock Like Steel or Concrete Sleepers.
I have had occasion when we have passed this on to consumers where we are asked why so cheap!
Even though we tell them in the proposal. Is something wrong with them/it?
Im sure I've missed project because of that cheapness as well with THAT perception being
There must be something wrong!

I had an excavator once that I couldn't sell There was nothing wrong with it just had a chance
to upgrade at a great Value. For what it was It was cheap $30K really a bargain. I had
service records and was still on site working.--Couldn't sell it.
I took it off of sale worked with it for another 6 mths (making well over my $30K) Put it on
the market for $45K and sold it for $41!!!!

Its a fine line.
 
tech/a said:
This is a really interesting reply SR
We have won many projects being the highest price which harks back to Smurf
Observation of reputation and perception of that.
Click to expand...

Yes , that's why I said I would seek references from others who have used the contractor.

tech/a said:
I had an excavator once that I couldn't sell There was nothing wrong with it just had a chance
to upgrade at a great Value. For what it was It was cheap $30K really a bargain. I had
service records and was still on site working.--Couldn't sell it.
I took it off of sale worked with it for another 6 mths (making well over my $30K) Put it on
the market for $45K and sold it for $41!!!!
Click to expand...

Interesting how the perceptions of the market vary. Better to price high with some things and let the buyer beat you down rather than underprice and give the impression that you are trying for a quick sale of a shonky product.
 
tech/a said:
I find this a really interesting Psychology if no other metric comes into play.

Say I want to buy plane ticket to London.

Business (Most expensive)
Premium Economy (Middle)
Cattle class (Cheapest).

If your not able to see WHY prices differ then in my
view you are not making an informed decision.

Lets say your buying a veranda

One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($18000 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($16500 +)
One has a lines ceiling with Ceiling Fan Down lights and Sun shutters. ($14500 +)

Do you take the middle?
Click to expand...

I like the proposition, there is no correct answer as there is not enough detail, unless all things remain the same in material, workmanship and service.

The flight scenario, one can make the assumption that they all achieve the same thing, they get you from A to B on the same vehicle of transport, but they are not the same service.

In my case, I develop Enterprise management software. My best clients are the ones the choose the lowest price. I don't get the work, which is my best opportunity for me in the future for me to get the work, as I am most of the top the highest price.

Why you might ask? Client takes the cheapest price, system fails, they waste a pile of money.
I contact them some time later, just to followup, they are pissed off at that stage, they don't want to piss more money up the wall. That is when I get to explain to them, the devil is always in the detail in systems software and it is not about price, it is about having a successful operating system. They have learnt by their mistakes and are willing to listen, they learn to own their decisions and become more active in making the system work.

Price is only one part of an equation to the success of any project, whether it is a product or service or a combination of both
 
We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time. The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.

"On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe."


Australia is rich, dumb and getting dumber

Aaron Patrick Senior Correspondent
Oct 8, 2019 — 12.00am

Bangladesh, Cuba, Iran, Mali and Turkmenistan share an unexpected connection to Australia, and it isn't membership of a tourist destination hot list.

All are among the economies that are so lacking in complexity, and have such limited natural opportunities to develop new products, that Harvard University recommends they adopt industrial policy straight out of the post-colonial developing world: the "strategic bets" approach.


The advice comes from the Harvard Kennedy School's Center for International Development, which two weeks ago launched a online database of 133 economies that combines remarkably rich data with beautiful presentation.

Designed to map, literally, the economic progress and opportunities of the industrial and non-industrial world, the Atlas of Economic Complexity exposes an under-appreciated truth about Australia.

The enormous wealth generated by iron ore, coal, oil and gas masks, and probably contributes to, an economy that has failed to develop the industries needed to sustain its position among the top ranks of the developed world.

Put simply, Australia is rich and dumb, and getting dumber.

On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe.

The Australian paradox

Harvard economist Ricardo Hausmann that finds trade in a globalised world is the path to riches.

The Harvard data exposes the paradox of the Australian economy: the eighth-richest nation in the study has the export profile of Angola.

About 70 per cent of products sold to foreign buyers, on a net basis, are minerals and energy. Add in food, alcohol, wool, tourism and metal products, and the figure rises to around 99 per cent.

Notwithstanding the success of CSL, Atlassian and corporate pioneers, Australia sells the world almost nothing, relative to total exports, that requires a degree to make.

"Australia⁩ is ⁨less complex than expected⁩ for its income level," the study says. "As a result, its economy is projected to grow ⁨slowly.⁩"

As a consequence, the economy will growth 2.2 per cent a year over the coming decade, ranking in the ⁨bottom half⁩ of countries globally, according to the Harvard projections.

Countries can do very well selling a narrow range of simple products. But to become richer - and end the wage-growth malaise that is a frequent political complaint - they need to develop new products. More sophisticated products support higher wages, according to Harvard's Center for International Development.

Innovation deficit
Lulled into inaction by the resources boom, Australia has been appalling at innovation.

In the 15 years to 2017, Singapore - a nation with no natural resources apart from human capital and proximity to big markets - expanded into 19 new global industries that generated $US14.4 billion ($21.3 billion), or $US2560 per resident. They include gas turbines, x-ray machines, synthetic rubber and imitation jewellery.

Over the same period, Australia broke into seven new products in a meaningful way, according to the Harvard database: precious metal ores, ammonia, rare earths, activated carbon, hydrochloric acid, scrap rubber and wax residues.

The value per Australian: $US33.

The most remarkable, and damning, conclusion of the research is that Australia is part of a group of simple economies that should adopt policies that single out specific industries for support.

Countries that many Australians would regard as economic peers, including Japan, Israel and the US, are on the frontier of technology and should be developing products that don't currently exist, it says.

Product proposals
For Australia, the study proposes a couple of dozen exports based on research that suggests, logically, leaps are easier when you manufacture similar products, such as moving from woollen socks to business suits.

The suggestions include serums and vaccines, laboratory reagents, vehicle bodies, butter, frozen vegetables, pig fat, chemical wood pulp and linseed.

So much for innovation nation.

Even if the suggestions are overly pessimistic, they point to Australia's struggle to break into international markets beyond resources and agriculture.

Despite being a preoccupation of both main political parties, industry policy has done little to improve the economy's sophistication.

As the government manages the current downturn, it might muster the courage to remove barriers that make it harder for business to thrive.

After all, surely an advanced economy such as Australia can do better than Senegal, which is one rank higher on Harvard's list?
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Junior said:
We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time. The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.

"On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe."
Click to expand...
Meanwhile our education standards are dropping, our population is being kept in the dark by a constant stream of white noise about anything other than what will in reality will make us a third world country, the sad part as can be seen on here we are falling for it.:(
 
Junior said:
We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time. The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.
Click to expand...
The really sad thing is that one of the "opportunities" mentioned, chemical wood pulp, was pioneered at Burnie (Tasmania) in the late 1930's which was the first viable hardwood pulping operation anywhere.

In due course APPM, or simply "the pulp" as locals always called it, ended up employing 4500 people at its peak or a quarter of the town's entire population. A notable aspect, unusual for its time in a heavy industrial situation, was that a substantial portion of the workforce was female.

Pulp production continued until 1998 and at the peak there were 10 paper production lines in operation as well as the Burnie Board mills. Everything was done on site - wood went in and finished paper came out. Even the packing was made on site as were the chemicals used in production.

The downside of course was the infamous pollution which turned the air white and the water black but with modern technology that could have been cleaned up certainly since the means of doing so is now very much proven. Indeed the company did propose redeveloping production with modern technology in 1988 but fell victim to politics at the federal level which sealed the fate of the entire operation in due course.

Go to the place where that was done and today there's a Bunnings on part of the site and the rest's doing nothing. Says it all really.:2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
The really sad thing is that one of the "opportunities" mentioned, chemical wood pulp, was pioneered at Burnie (Tasmania) in the late 1930's which was the first viable hardwood pulping operation anywhere.

In due course APPM, or simply "the pulp" as locals always called it, ended up employing 4500 people at its peak or a quarter of the town's entire population. A notable aspect, unusual for its time in a heavy industrial situation, was that a substantial portion of the workforce was female.

Pulp production continued until 1998 and at the peak there were 10 paper production lines in operation as well as the Burnie Board mills. Everything was done on site - wood went in and finished paper came out. Even the packing was made on site as were the chemicals used in production.

The downside of course was the infamous pollution which turned the air white and the water black but with modern technology that could have been cleaned up certainly since the means of doing so is now very much proven. Indeed the company did propose redeveloping production with modern technology in 1988 but fell victim to politics at the federal level which sealed the fate of the entire operation in due course.

Go to the place where that was done and today there's a Bunnings on part of the site and the rest's doing nothing. Says it all really.:2twocents
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We plan for the long term in Australia, well, until the next election.
 
Junior said:
We have been discussing this on ASF for a long time. The statistics supporting this theory are even worse than most would have predicted.

"On the primary metric used in the database, an index of economic complexity, Australia fell from 57th to 93rd from 1995 to 2017, a decline that is accelerating. Australia's top trading partner, China, rose from 51st to 19th over the same timeframe."
Click to expand...

Further to Junior's post, it is about time Australians stood back and had a look at themselves, all this change the World stuff sounds great, but in reality the only World that is going to change is Australia's.
Spend a bit of time reading this article, then tell me our major worry is climate change.
https://ourworldindata.org/how-and-why-econ-complexity

Check out the Countries that are the same colour as us. :roflmao:
Thank god for the minerals and a small population.
 
sptrawler said:
Check out the Countries that are the same colour as us.
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The really sad bit is when you move it back to 1964 and see how much more advanced we were then compared to now.

Or not on that chart but going back a century we were right up there on a lot of things. First or at least very early with all sorts of things.

Now we're clinging to the hope that the rest of the world keeps wanting to buy coal.:banghead:
 
qldfrog said:
https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ee3cbb5b8769051e0fd9697efcc81fb5
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Nailed it.

Main observation I'll make is that the extent of the imbalance is increasingly obvious and attracting more attention. There's more people saying this sort of thing now whereas in the past it was really only the odd random person who said this is going to be a problem.

This has all been coming for a very long time - concerns have been around since at least the early 1980's about all this.:2twocents
 
qldfrog said:
https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...y/news-story/ee3cbb5b8769051e0fd9697efcc81fb5
During that time science illiterates from y12 onward strikes before joining other perpetual students and system parasites to block bridges, cbd and airports
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As smurf said, this article is right on the money.

I'll add that if politicians like Dutton et al are so concerned about Chinese influence in the universities, it all comes down to the fact that the universities are under funded and have to rely on foreign students.

Nothing wrong with educating foreign students, but our own students have to come first, so the government just has to bite the bullet and give the uni's more money, and exercise control to ensure that the uni's offer courses that are relevant to societies needs.
 
SirRumpole said:
As smurf said, this article is right on the money.

I'll add that if politicians like Dutton et al are so concerned about Chinese influence in the universities, it all comes down to the fact that the universities are under funded and have to rely on foreign students.

Nothing wrong with educating foreign students, but our own students have to come first, so the government just has to bite the bullet and give the uni's more money, and exercise control to ensure that the uni's offer courses that are relevant to societies needs.
Click to expand...

Agree, I think to fund it we need to stop training people in careers that we do not need.

The Gov should work with employers, identify potential requirements in 5 years time, offer unlimited training numbers spread thoughout the various state Unis for those skills.

It is not hard to imagine the frustration of a graduate when they discover their employment prospects within there qualified area are not good.

We could say "if you are smart enough to go to Uni, you should be smart enough to pick a course that has good job prospects" but the school system does not seem to encourage common sense anymore.

I think many academics like "soft sciences" and obviously do not understand science, engineering etc etc. so are not in tune with practical, hands on personalities who flourish in those industries
 
Education in this country is a joke along with the majority of trainers and teachers knowledge. It is very hard to find and learn from people who know their profession inside-out. Let alone the hoops and expense of it.
 
Trouble is teaching is, unless a vocation, a last resort option, for perpetual students to gain a job.
I do not target Basilio here
Not specific to australia but after years of growth and plenty of job opportunities elsewhere, we have populated teaching with the cream of the bottom and these appointments will carry on for a while generation.
If you add the me me and participation awards syndromes, the level is abysmal.
This would not be a death sentence if we had a society aiming for excellence and entrepreneurship..you remember Turnbull score with even trying?
So 50pc of population with a culture of envy, tax the risk increase welfare and the other half worrying about bank share, super and real estate
In a country fully in its bubble unaware of the workd as it is now, and how quickly it is moving past
We worry about burn out of primary school kids if they have homework, china build a new airport in Beijing
Parents take their kids in SUV to a climate march, China and india open new coal station, build new rickets and missiles
I have said it so many times but visit Argentina or Chile, this is our future but it will arrive much more quickly
A mismatched arrogance,a leftist state of mind and you end up there even with a small population and incredible natural assets
 
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